Post by cue5c in September 2021 Lounge

Viewing post in September 2021 Lounge

Yay! I'm 50/50 on the prolly, but it does stand out and is often cute.

I'd definitely suggest Pervader next. It's extremely promising and I'm going to assume by your dragon that you like magic. :P It does an amazing job selling you on its magic system and world, as well as just being utterly gorgeous. I adore Echo. It's still my second favorite VN, but it's a lot. Hopefully, it's not too much for you. Luckily both other stories in its universe go down a bit smoother and the finale of Jenna's route is a satisfying palate cleanser.

Tazogor3 years ago

Oh yeah I love magic a lot. It's going to be fun dissecting the magic system. I'm excited! Echo is on the back burner, and I am trying not to spoil anything, just which character I would like to tackle. The lizard and wolf are cute to me. But looks and personality is two different things. So far, I just need to take the first step!

cue5c3 years ago

Starting with TJ is usually a good first choice. Flynn, the lizard, is easily my favorite character, but his story is probably better as one of the last two, just because of how many revelations it has that may not make full sense without context from the others. Without spoiling anything, at the very least I would read Leo's (the wolf) story before Flynn's. Unlike a lot of VNs with multiple character routes, they're all unique stories while also each containing major revelations for the overall mystery.

ChronicQuery3 years ago (1 edit)

Hmm, I disagree about recommending TJ's route first. You appreciate and enjoy that route more by knowing the cast's friendship and dynamics, and about that event. I remember the contrast to other routes to be particularly satisfying in TJ's. I really think you ought to finish at least 2 of the other routes to experience this contrast in full glory.

In general, you tend to find the routes you play later to be richer, mostly because of the ommitted context and details you discover other routes. With that said, I recommend one's first two routes to be Carl's and Leo's. The build-up for their pay-offs are relatively self-contained in their own stories, compared to the others which have their build-ups more connected to history and the interweb of relationships. That is to say, the other routes benefit more from being played later.

I'd personally recommend: Carl, Leo, Jenna, TJ, Flynn

P.S. When they said 'check out the Smoke Room', they meant a separate game (unless they wanted to see the world burn).

EDIT: I've resolved the order after some consideration.

cue5c3 years ago

I think Carl and TJ are fairly interchangeable as first plays. The problem I have with saying to do Leo before TJ is that Leo's has major emotional resolutions to TJ's route. And Flynn before Jenna also helps deliver an emotional climax to the characters. Jenna's route has the most closure out of all, although Leo's feels far more realistic. I personally started with Carl's but I've had people bounce off because of how they felt about his story. It's one of the weaker stories despite having some of the most lore in it.

I've played through a couple times so I've seen the added context, and I find the ideal route to be Carl - TJ - Leo/Route 65 (Flynn) - Flynn - Jenna - Route 65 (TJ route) - Leo. But considering how much that is and how people can bounce off Carl, I tend to compromise and say TJ-Leo/65-Carl-Flynn-Jenna.

Tazogor3 years ago(+1)

A lot of great options. I am hoping to go over the routes and pick up what i might of missed so I hopefully grasp the story well. It looks like I should start with Carl. He is pretty cute too. Once I hit echo, I know its going to be a tough but rewarding read. I'll keep yall posted if you want to hear my ramblings. But Pervader is first~

cue5c3 years ago

Ramblings always welcome. I'm especially curious about what you think about Pervader. The more I've let it sit, the more I really love it.

ChronicQuery3 years ago(+1)

[SPOILER FOR ECHO]

Eh? TJ's route does something for Leo's? As far as I know, the reasons as to why you should enjoy Leo's ending are just about covered in his own route; it's relatively self-contained in that way. I'd treated it as the one with the least support from other routes in delivering its climax. I'm kind of surprised that TJ's, one of the more removed from the others that does this. Can you attach a spoiler to remind me of that plot point?

Besides that, the reason why I placed the latter 2 (TJ, Flynn) in their places is their definitive reveal of a meta issue in the narrative-- the fallibility of the protagonist Chase. The other three barely touch this on their own; at best, Leo's and Jenna's left hints. The magnitude of this reveal is dependent on how much you've established beforehand. The double-take it leads you to do is a precious thing branching mystery VN's can induce. This is Echo's design, seeing how it sprinkles exclusive interconnected lore in each route. You'd miss this experience were you to stumble upon it early.

Funnily enough, my reason for doing the Carl route first is a bit similar to yours. As it is generally deemed the least impactful, one would want to deal with it first as to avoid a valley in your escalating playthroughs. As you've also mentioned, the fact that it had a lot of lore details made it even more appealing for that.

cue5c3 years ago(+1)

[Major Echo Spoilers]

|Don't even skim Tazogor lmao|

I think this is going to come down to a difference in what you want to prioritize. The way I listed is based on having a full understanding of the story at the expense of learning some twists early, which I think the writing is more than strong enough to withstand. Most of Flynn and Jenna's routes were written post-TJ's ending so I feel even more comfortable about that.

The thing I mention with TJ is everything post car crash. TJ can't undo his seatbelt and almost drowns. Chase eventually saves him, but he immediately asks Chase about Sydney. Chase ignores him. From that point on he can't bring himself to talk to Chase. He just stares at him like he's not even human. Sam brings it up while they're in Kudzu's trailer, talking about how water was different from that point on. How he understood the fear others felt. However, all of this is written so that you can misconstrue it as this group mourning a friend and the trauma from it rather than the direct action that Chase took. Also, you miss out on what is objectively the funniest joke in Echo.

https://twitter.com/burner_flynn/status/1400941006363631616?t=YOWaw_rV-1tIC1RWf1...

Leo's route shifts the most depending on what knowledge you have. There's everything with TJ. This even shows up before the car crash, as Chase will have throwaway lines about how cute TJ is and in general has a weird protectiveness about him. (The shift in Flynn's route only happens when TJ is directly confronted.) There's the knowledge that Chase has secretly been flirting with Leo over texts that he deletes out of guilt. There's the tulpa Leo created, who is constantly threatening Chase and likely appears in front of Duke to get Chase killed. There's everything to do with Sam, which has a very different feeling if you've read The Smoke Room. And this is more of a personal theory, but I think that the Flynn that saves Chase is the cursed one. Sam at first sees red eyes and thinks it's a creature of the mines. Only after Sam recognizes him as Flynn does the scene shift and Flynn starts existing, with no red eyes to be seen. When Chase asks him how he knew about the mines he gives a very basic non-answer. With how many timeline shenanigans that exist within Echo, I really feel like Leo's is the true ending to this specific cast. That's why I suggest reading it a second time after finishing it once. There are so many small details that come together.

The reason I say Flynn and then Jenna is because of the reveal of the wendigo at the end of Flynn's route. That way when it shows up in Jenna's, you have a lot more context for it. There's a lot of emotion behind moments like it starting at Flynn when Jenna is trying to save Heather from herself and the town, or when Chase calls it Jenna's guardian angel after it saves them from Brian. Instead of being just a freaky moment, it's incredibly cathartic. Flynn has always been one of the most caring characters so his control of the town to instead save people is a moment of triumph after an ending that is very cruel.

Chase is complicated. He's a liar and he has no problem withholding things from even himself, like the texting. However, that texting confrontation is one of the most revealing moments. Far more so than that he killed Sydney. At that moment, he feels guilt, which shocks Sam into saying something along the lines of, "this is what you feel guilty about?" As he says when he's free of Sam in Flynn's route, he's glad he killed Sydney. That means he is not the one causing everything that's happening in Echo. It's actually mostly Flynn and (to a lesser extent) Leo. It's why killing Flynn delays the madness, as his guilt is cut off. It might have ended because he realized Chase did it and decided he wanted to live more than kill, but we can't know for sure. Either way, with Flynn either killed or changed, things shift. So Chase is more of a catalyst for others. I have to wonder if Chase being affected in TJ's route is because he's confused as to why TJ is doing this, since in his mind, killing Sydney was the right thing to do.

All of this is to say that despite Chase being an unreliable narrator, his motivations for doing so aren't really tied to anything deeper than basic teenage shit. It's not sinister in nature. If you don't go along with Flynn in the club, you find out Chase hasn't slept with anyone since leaving Leo, so Leo is still the only person he's been with. Chase is extremely sheltered and an awkward as fuck person. I think he should feel guilty about what he did and why Jenna's route is a little too easy for me, but it's better for the town if it's seen as a good thing so everyone can accept Sydney's death and move on. That's why I prefer Leo's ending. People move on, but nothing is washed over. TJ finally understands the weight of what happened and Chase is with someone who can help him, but is also someone Chase can protect, fulfilling both of his needs. Leo has finally taken off the damn anchor and rejects giving Chase his new number. (Again, more meaningful knowing what Chase was doing in secret.)

I'll say that Leo's route is also the one that is most directly linked with Adastra. The dream when Chase is hit by Duke has text that is almost word for word used in Adastra when describing The Other. I agree that Leo's feels the most standalone, but I really think it benefits more than any other from being read a second time.

(This was a lot so sorry if some of my thoughts are kind of scattered!)

itch.io

Viewing post in September 2021 Lounge

[Major Echo Spoilers]

|Don't even skim Tazogor lmao|