Post by atmac in Lyre comments

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I understand what youre saying, but the main character is not meant to be a blank slate that the reader is able to throw themselves onto. However, the reader is still able to name the MC and pretend they're someone they aren't. Thats why a lot of people read novels. They wish to escape reality and experience a story, whether it be from their own perspective, or the perspective of others.

If it helps, the description for the novel will be undergoing changes soon in order to better represent what it's about. It is a bit outdated and was made back when I wished to keep things hidden so as to not spoil. I only wished to give a general idea.

But the idea that the avatar could be an object for the readers own perspective and role in this world is staying. There are many self-insert characters in media who are nothing like their readers and have agency over their own decisions. It's their experiences and morals that bind them to us.

PrimeAmbition1 year ago (4 edits) (+1)(-4)

They don't have to be a blank slate. I'm sure everyone is tired of the generic "white boy" MC in a furry game who has very quippy dialogue. I understand what you mean, but the type of self-insert character you are going for is usually new to the world or situation they are in. They are discovering it with us or are directly meant to represent the reader/viewer in how they'd think or try to navigate the story they are in. Examples are Johnny Cage from Mortal Combat and Randy Meeks from the original Scream movie. Those characters may not be like the reader, but they still think as we would. An average human with no connections or powers is thrown into a world of magic where the faith of everything they once knew is placed on their shoulders and a bunch of people they don't even know, but hey, now you've got freaking superpowers! Or, a horror movie fan was thrown into a horror movie situation saying everything we are shouting at the screen to the point of even calling out the killer way before their reveal. They can exist, but they are relatable and react to the new situations they are thrown into as the audience or a fan would. I don't feel that with the "player character" of this game. Yes, all 3 have their own lives before the story we are presented, but your character acts just as their own person. And sure, that could be similar to Randy Meeks, but in his story, he says things fans of horror movies would say cause he's the surrogate. While your character is brilliant and well-versed in the world's rules like he is, we as an audience are not familiar with those rules like how we would be with the horror movie genre in Scream. Almost nothing needs explaining to them, and even when introduced to something you think they'd be unfamiliar with, they know more about it than the reader does. They don't do or react as a fan of these media types would but maybe once, and they are very familiar with their role in the world. Spoilers, when first introduced to what is essentially magic towards the latter half of the current story. They don't act as a vehicle for the audience to it. The character even always knows more than most think they would and is called out on how clever they are multiple times. Like, if they were unfamiliar with how the political sphere of being a foreign dignitary worked and were in the library constantly studying to pass off a feeling of competence or something, or was winging it and having the cast misinterpret their improv as genius by getting something very insightful from it that'd work. Though that wouldn't necessarily fit with the mood at first, with how drastically the tone shifts during the introduction of deities, it wouldn't be a stretch.

The description being overhauled would undoubtedly be a welcome change. As it stands, it feels like it's advertising a different thing, and that cheapened the experience of what I was reading. The entire time I was waiting to see if I'd have any say in how to shape future events. I wondered if I could spend more time with the prince to see the side of him that other characters claim exists. I wondered if I could talk to certain characters to get a better feel for how the world looks through the eyes of someone who sees it as a more hostile environment. Instead, I wasn't given any of that. I was given a rather intriguing story I never once felt like I had entered into. I will not stop complimenting the story. It is delivered very well and certainly got me to read and re-read it, but I never felt any sense of other characters being smarter than the protag. Most seem to trust them and are surprisingly open. After playing this novel twice, the entire synopsis feels like it's only about one person, and you don't interact with them enough to even feel like they are trying to deceive you. It just feels like they never give you the entire story because they don't fully trust you. The romance isn't even unlikely. They are the character you spend the most time with, and never once does the character even question themselves on how they could have feelings for them. The lore even plays it off as if it's natural where they come from, and only in Lyre is it seemingly unnatural. It's self-evident they were meant to be the main romance from the get-go, which is partly why I was hoping to see if there were choices to branch out and get to know other characters. Because, again, the synopsis makes it feel like you can do that.
Honestly, if the synopsis is left as written, literally any other character being a romance option would make it feel more unlikely of a romance than what we end up getting. Imagine the scandal of two foreign dignitaries both befalling tragic events before their trips falling for each other while never feeling like they can ever fully trust one another. Indeed, if word through the court spread that they seemed relatively close, people would feel like their respective countries were trying to pull something shady against Lyre by controlling the crown.
Or imagine the story of the king's advisor who was smitten with the man he worked for, and somehow the king had feelings for someone beneath him whom he knew he couldn't ever be with due to how weak it'd make the crown seem. And to be later framed for their secret lovers' murder. The romance would be unexpected and go to a place you don't see visual novels ever go. Usually, they end when either of the romance options dies after all. Cause that's the fail state, that is the bad ending. But getting justice for the man you should never have loved? That'd be an exciting end goal.
Even if the romance were the prince, it would be interesting and unexpected with how he acts (though he'd likely have to be two years older because if I got the context clues right, he's 16. Even though adulthood in fantasy settings is usually more flexible, it wouldn't work with how most modern societies see things, bar places like Japan, Italy, Germany, Portugal, and some U.S. States). How would he feel if the person he had feelings for was the prime suspect in his father's murder? One of the people he slowly began to feel vulnerable around might've just been using him from the get-go to advance their political agenda in his eyes. That'd be an intriguing story.

I apologize. I lost myself. What I mean is I would have never thought that these would be possibilities if the synopsis were not written like it currently is (as of 1/11/2023).

Aofangs1 year ago(+1)

Honestly you raise some decent points, I for one (who isn't Caucasian to begin with) isn't tired of the whole white MC thing that's been going on lately in recent vns which is actually a decent change. Most furry vns over the decades have been just that, mostly antros without any other non-fur variety and it was getting old to me at least.

Yes things aren't fully explained but that's the cool thing you get to connect the dots. I was surprised when the scene of the map appeared in Lyalls room, there's lore drops/snippets here and there. Making for the reader to fill in the gaps and guess potential possibilities. I like the being able to think this is a alternate me living in another timeline but the same name in these scenarios and its quite enjoyable.

People aren't always going to be satisfied with the work you do, but he's made something pretty neat so far.

PrimeAmbition1 year ago (1 edit) (+1)(-2)

I don't think you understood the beginning. The main character in Lyre is NOT a "generic white boy," I'm guessing you've not been in the sphere of where these VNs came from. The first big one, Mornatsu, was just that. You played as a generic light-skinned protag who served as a blank-slate surrogate with a pre-existing relationship with most of the cast. Probably until Echo Project came out, most Visual Novels were that. Sure, there are a lot of furry protags now, but that isn't where it began, and there were certainly more times when you were a human thrown into a furry world. It's not new or fresh. It's going back to the roots.

It seems there is also some issue with understanding here, too. I have no issue with things not being fully explained; the game actually always explains things. Mainly through the main character's own words. Again, who knows many things we do not know and pulls them out as trump cards that surprise us as much as the people they are conversing with within the scene.
I want to think that, but the way things are framed, I can't personally put myself in the shoes of such a perfect and competent character, and I'm certain it may feel like somewhat of a power fantasy for some. Still, nothing in the synopsis gives me the impression that is to be the case. Aside from maybe two moments in the game, they fully control every conversation they partake in. That isn't a quality a good surrogate has.

I never said it wasn't neat. I have problems with how it's advertised. It isn't displayed as it is delivered. It never calls itself a linear story in a visual novel format. It doesn't sell itself as a captivating romance about a competent human dignitary in a foreign kingdom who is thrown into an inescapable situation and discovers unlikely allies around every corner who are all seemingly powerless to help them in their plight. It tells me that "I" am a human ambassador surrounded by diverse characters whose motives are left in the dark as they lead me through a political climate they know more about than myself. If you've read the story, that isn't the case. The people who don't outright swear they believe you are seemingly on your side and never once try to deceive you. Even the character who outright hates you flat out tells the protag their intentions, and the reader gets to look into their perspective for a brief bit. The one "deceptive" character isn't even that. They are also very forward and seemingly don't give you the entire story cause they likely can't. There are multiple characters the protag has to put their trust in, and does aside from one thing that doesn't make much sense at the moment.
Spoilers here, but if basically everyone has abandoned a specific religion. Even a member of the kings' court, doctor or not, can't convince people that religion and its gods are real. Especially with how esoteric it was and how difficult an ability like that would be to prove. Looking into past events as a power isn't very easy to make believable in a world where magic isn't widely accepted, especially when the person with the ability comes from a background where they are well-read, and they need to prove it to other well-read people. You better believe that an assassination of a ruler is well-documented. Especially when the king is an eye-witness. Even if people don't commonly know all the details, they are documented in that castle somewhere. It wouldn't be out of the ordinary for an ambassador who works for the crown to be privy to that information. If they could look into the past and find an item that someone has hidden that they have no way of knowing about, that would be a way to prove it, but who'd give a felon that time of day? The doctor and the guard captain might, but even if they know and believe, they'd be seen as crazy or enamored. Might even get them locked up too, and labeled as accomplices.
I'm saying that there is no reason the protag wouldn't tell characters of their scrying ability unless it was someone they knew who would assume they are crazy. Not like there is a stipulation where you lose your power when someone figures out you have it. With how intelligent the protag is presented to be, I could see a good excuse being that they are protecting their own allies cause they know telling them about the power might get them locked up alongside them, but that's never stated or implied to be the reason.

I, again, think there is an issue with how the story is presented versus how it is. Updating the description/synopsis would fix that and lead to it not misleading people any further. It's as simple as that. No story can be perfect, and this one does a dang good job of what it does. I simply wish it wasn't selling me on something it isn't.

atmac1 year ago(+2)

The main character is not presented as perfect. There are many things they have been shown to not know. Not only that, but they have several flaws if you look closely and pay attention. Having been a part of this world for a long time, it would make sense for them to have knowledge on some things that the reader doesnt.

I really do tire of this one-sided conversation. You made a valid point with the synopsis of the game being a bit misleading. That's completely my fault and it was entirely by mistake. It will be fixed in the future and you have nothing to worry about in that regard.

However, your review and analysis of the story and it's characters is interesting, yet inaccurate in some areas. This isn't your fault because the story isn't finished entirely. We're not even close to the end of it.

Nobody wants to see someone come in here and say a story is "Just Adastra, but (insert slight difference here)". Only I can confirm this right now, but I can assure you this story will be nothing like Adastra by the time it is finished. My inspiration comes from classic medieval fantasy stories and several historic events.

I'm sorry there's no routes. I'm sorry there's not any other romance options. I'm sorry you were mislead going into this, but some of the stuff you assumed wasn't even hinted at in the description. "It would have been cool if this..." or "It would have been cool if that...". Yes, I'm sure it would be very neat, but whether it happens or not is up to me. I write this story for myself, not just to appease people online.

I really do tire of this debate. I won't be responding to further messages. Plans to change the description of the novel were already being put in place. In conclusion, your problem will be solved. Thank you for your input.

PrimeAmbition1 year ago (1 edit) (+2)(-2)

I never meant they were flawless when saying "perfect". I was implying how they were knowledgeable, competent in their field, and usually had control of any conversation they were a part of. Not to mention being considered very handsome. They have very few flaws, I understand they aren't unflawed completely, but they are pretty darn close. There are often some biases people have as writers that they don’t realize in their work.

I apologize the conversation is tiresome for you; If I didn't care about the success of your work, I wouldn't be passionate enough to write so much. We are harder on the things we care about the most and strive to see them grow and become something better. Not every fan can be a “yes-man.”

You can’t blame me for my Adastra comparison. You are a human in a foreign land (check) who quickly falls into a one-route romance with a himbo wolfman (check), have a connection to the creator god of your respective world (check), find yourself at the opposite end of a rude princes ire (check), and an outwardly kind foreign dignitary feline who is rather deceitful and clearly has their own hidden agenda (check). I’m sorry you don’t like it, but the signs are all there.

I’m fine if there aren’t any routes, if it’s meant to be a simple non-branching narrative that’s what it’s meant to be. But, based off past comments, with how it was advertised, I’m not the only person who assumed there would be other routes. I thank you for confirming that things will be corrected, and I look forward to seeing how the story evolves as I certainly am more enamored with your world over that of other visual novels. I greatly appreciate well-done worldbuilding. You do a rather good job at driving my curiosity to see how your vision ends, especially since endings is what a lot of VNs tend to fall short at.

itch.io

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