Post by redonihunter in POC tag?

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A game that focuses on BIPOC experiences?

You would not tag that as poc. Or bipoc. Same way you do not tag woman or female. You tag female-protagonist.

But you do not tag non-male-protagonist. As this is what poc or bipoc stands for by analogy.

You might tag poc-perspective, or straightout bipoc-experience but I guess tags like social critisicm and similar would work better. Especially since poc stands for proof of concept in gaming. And it is not even good terms in general. I had to look up what bipoc stands for. Sound like bipolar. Or bi-poc.

If it's about Japanese people in Japan, no, you couldn't.

Sure I could. Correct me if I misunderstood, but poc stands for people of color. Or person of color. Some might imply that it has context of being oppressed as well, but that seems to be more for bipoc, as poc is rather descriptive.

But having "poc" in the game is not dependend of there being non-poc as well or not. You could have all the same cast and it could be poc.

Poc just does not mean minority. It means non-white.

And nobody talked about tagging the exact race (well, "race") of the main character, just a general BIPOC tag.

So you would tag the existence of non-white people in a game? LGBT tags the existence of those topics in a game. Tagging POC would mean what exactly? If no one knows at first glance, the tag is useless. "racism" would be a better tag, if you think "poc" as a tag would stand for the experience of being oppressed, as "racism" is a topic you encounter in the game.

lgbt is to being a person what racism is to being a poc. You might encounter it. But you do not tag person-that-might-have sex. You tag the kind of sex, lgbt in that case. So why tag poc? What you face is not poc, but the racism or oppression or whatever you wanna show in the experience.

That's why I'm suggesting the form that's become popular on social media.

While this is far beyond the scope of gaming tags, I do not think this is a good term. It should not be popular anywhere. It divides instead of unifies. It reaffirms the need for racist thinking. Basically it is just an euphemism for black person. Bipoc adresses that. Badly, as it appropriates "minorities" without asking. Minority would be a better word. Because the inhabitants in most countries are poc by definition (like Japan), but not a minority. But what you think poc or at least bipoc stands for, includes the minority and racism aspect. With lgbt, there at least it is about preference. We are "allowed" to be straight. But we are "not allowed" to discriminate by race.

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No Time To Play1 year ago (3 edits) (+2)

Good job being a pedant. When you see people online complaining about whiteness? This is what they mean. Who do you think came up with the #BIPOC hashtag on social media? Spend more time listening when people talk about their own experiences. It's the least you and me can do.

Edit: come to think of it, do you know why the female-protagonist tag exists? Because representation used to be a major problem in games. Likewise with LGBT representation. That's the common trait making both necessary. It's not about gender as such, or who you can romance in the game. Other tags may be more descriptive, arguably, but these are not meant to be. Not all tags are equal, or exist for the same reason, and that's fine.

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redonihunter1 year ago

Good job being a pedant.

Thanks. As this topic is about tagging, I dare say it is all about pedantism.

I mostly agree with this here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_of_color#Criticism

Especially this sentence:

Preserving "whiteness" as an intact category while lumping every other racial group into an indiscriminate category ("of color") replicates the marginalization that the term was intended to counter.

In my own words, racism is a thing to be abolished. But terms like that do not help, quite to the contrary. Oh, and I also do not approve of adding letters to lgbt for the same reasons.

do you know why the female-protagonist tag exists

Do you? Or did you assert your own theories after the fact?

My take on this is as follows. The same reason why indie and rogue-like or pixel-art are tags. Because people figured, you can sell games with that kind of pitch. To look special, to differ from perceived mainstream. (Tagging indie on itch is kinda overkill, but still 15k games tag it)

Because representation used to be a major problem in games.

It is not about representation. That is a problematic mindset, be it for games, movies or whatever. You need representation in democratically elected entities, not in other things. Crying for representation elsewhere is forced diversity and inherently flawed. By what standards would you apply representation? Speaking of things like ethnicity for lack of a better word.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_contemporary_ethnic_groups

There are more groups than cast members in any given movie/game. Representing is futile. And chosing whom to represent is a sure way of offending people. Either you do not represent them, so you offend them for not being represented. Or you represent too much of any group, so you get called racist. Or you go by diversity checklist and get called woke. Or you try to represent group A by chosing one of group B and offending both by doing so. But whatever you do, as soon as you chose by discriminatory attributes you are racist by defintion.

But back to female protagonist representation. Wich females would there be to represent? I play games for decades now and I do not have the impression that protagonists of the female persuasion are in any way underrepresented. One can complain that Link is the hero and Zelda is the princess, but if you have a scenario that losely has a questing knight, well, there were not really female knights in any significant number. Also, only games with fixed protagonist would qualify. Like Zak McKracken. But look further and you have the females in Maniac Mansion. Many games have fighters as protagonists and it is just unrealistic in many scenarios to have female fighters. It is easier with magic, contemporary or science fiction. Metroid is from 1986 and gave us Samus Aran.

As to why, well, males tend to want to impress females by doing stupid things (like going on a quest to slay the dragon). And such stupid things make a good story. A woman setting out to kill the dragon to be allowed to marry the prince... I have doubts this would fly.

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No Time To Play1 year ago(+1)

In my own words, racism is a thing to be abolished. But terms like that do not help, quite to the contrary. Oh, and I also do not approve of adding letters to lgbt for the same reasons.

Here's the trick though: you don't get to decide what other people call themselves, or what helps with racism. People affected by it do. People who feel LGBTQIA+ describes them better? They know better. Listen to them.

On a similar note, you don't decide what counts as female representation in fiction, or what matters. Listen to those impacted by it.

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nelomaxwell1 year ago(+1)

I appreciate your commentary, it seems easy for people who are prejudiced to justify being upset that those marginalized would want representation. It's really that this permeates nerd culture as a whole.

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redonihunter1 year ago

I try to form my opinions by cause and effect. How does a term like "poc" helps with (sic) racism? I think you meant, it helps against racism. Because, funnily, I do think, it does help with racism. ;-) (Actually, lets not discuss this here)

I like the moral of the episode of South Park were they want to change the city flag. I want a world were the people are like the kids. They do not see race first, it is just an attribute, like height or eye color. So when discussin the old flag, they saw people lynching a person, not white people hanging a black person, and subsequently discussed, if it is ok to show a lynching on a flag. The adults of course only saw an racist act and did not want to discuss it at all, for fear of backlash, not matter what they would decide.

People do not know better what describes them better. They feel better. There is a difference. One is factual, the other emotional. Also describing is something from the outside. A 3 foot height person self describing as tall, does not make that person tall. (Pedantic at work here ;-)

Or whait, did you mean to say, people who are affected by something are to decide what do do about it? By what reasoning? Because that sounds like making the fox guard the hen house. Or the mindset of : I am offended, therefore I am right. Or asking the victim of a crime to be the judge. That is not how our society works.

About female representation. Why should I care about those "impacted" by it. The people impacted by fiction are the readers. Not the people "not represented" in it. But as I said, asking/checking for representation is a problematic mindset. It is asking and making problems. For this one, why should there be "representation" in the first place? How much? 50%? Why? Why not 1% or 75%? The things portraied in games do not have 50% equality, so why should games have it? Look at games with soldiers as heroes. The ball park estimate is 10% of military personel is female. That does not say front line fighters and is a contempary number that was lots lower in the past. So did anyone check, if 10% of games feature female fighers as heroes? And how do you count games, where you can select the gender of the hero?

And even if there were a misrepresentation of reality, that actually counts for nothing, as we are talking about fiction. And about stories. That means they are by definition out of the ordinary. If anything, I dare say, females are overrepresented in games, as it can make a story and is interesting. Hence the tagging of female-protagonist.

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No Time To Play1 year ago(+2)

How does a term like "poc" helps with (sic) racism?

You missed the part where it's not your business.

People do not know better what describes them better. They feel better. There is a difference.

No, there isn't. And either way, they know better. Because it's about themselves, not you.

Or whait, did you mean to say, people who are affected by something are to decide what do do about it? By what reasoning?

It's called self-determination. Look it up.

About female representation. Why should I care about those "impacted" by it.

Because they're people. I don't know how to tell you that you should care about other people.

Try basing your moral compass on something else than South Park. It poisons the mind.

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slef-determination? so its like yourself not giving up? because i know that determination means never give up

No Time To Play1 year ago

No, determination as in who determines your fate. Who decides for you.

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ok?

nelomaxwell1 year ago(+1)

If racism is to be abolished then why are you so offended that we want representation? And what created that need for it? Could it be racism that dictated who would and wouldn't be represented?

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redonihunter1 year ago

Can you specify how sufficient representation would look like? Because I know that term from slogans like no taxation without representation. And games and fiction as a whole is not a thing that warrants any kind of representation in the first place.

You can even make stories about talking animals. Who was represented in those? Whom did Pac-Man represent?

One makes a thing and people like it, or not. What good would it do, to be "represented" in games that no one plays? The most popular games are games where you can customize your character anyways, so the whole concept has a very slim application anyways.

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nelomaxwell1 year ago(+1)

Are you actually looking for me to tell you what representation looks like to me as a person who is marginalized? Or are you just looking to shout it down without having a discussion?

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Viewing post in POC tag?