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Your Only Move Is HUSTLE (Open Beta Version)

An online, turn-based fighting game and superpowered fight scene simulator. · By ivysly

Defensive Burst Thoughts

A topic by Thandres created Nov 26, 2022 Views: 627 Replies: 2
Viewing posts 1 to 2
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tl;dr: I feel that Burst as a purely defensive mechanic is a bit too weak at the moment (0.3.0).

I am not on the discord so maybe its already discussed there but here are my 2 cents:

I feel like the opportunity cost of Bursting is not really in line with what you get out of it. It sends the opponent flying faaar away which is only really beneficial to wizard as they can start spamming their projectiles. But for cowboy and ninja losing two uses of whiff cancels is just such a huge tradeoff that you basically only do it when you get combo´d at 30% hp or something when you know the combo will probably kill.

Just taking the damage on the first or second combo and keeping the threat of burst is far more valuable as it allows you to set up your turn better when the combo eventually ends. There have been so many people that used burst early and then didnt have the resources to get out of some whiff cancel traps, but maybe thats because people need to learn to play defensively when you dont have access to whiff cancels.
When you burst and you are wrong you just reset your opponents combo scaling and will likely be eating another big chunk and give the opponent lots of meter or just straight up lose the round to the following combo. And even if your opponent didnt bait it or parried it you are now in a spot where you are down in resources(burst bar) and not in a good spot to actually do anything to your opponent because without burst bar you cant whiff cancel so you need to play really defensive for a while.

As an aggressor I am not really worried about getting bursted, as it only ends my combo and depletes my opponents resources AT WORST. When i read it and parry it or make it miss some other way its combo town, population: Opponent with some free super meter on top.

As a defender there are only two real uses: The threat of activation making my opponent try to parry it so they end their combo early or try to prevent getting combo´d to death. Even for preventing a game loss its quite bad as it becomes very obvious that you NEED to burst sometimes in the next 3 moves or are dead, so it becomes very easy to play around.

That is why i feel like Burst is a bit too weak right now as a defensive tool.

I am not a game developer so my ideas on how to fix it are probably bad but I had two thoughts:

- hitting the burst makes it the defenders turn and lets them combo the aggressor

This would make it so the aggressor would really fear a burst and actually play around it. It would keep people in the game more and promote some active (and probably sick to watch) gameplay as now parried burst are even more hype and players getting combo´d can exact their revenge immedietly(which might be cathartic after getting combo´d for a minute or two).
Bursting just resetting the player positions means that the defending player just used lots of resources for very little gain in a game where execution doesnt matter.

- hitting the burst reduces the aggressors meter. Burst or super, maybe both?

This addresses the opportunity cost issue that having no access to whiff cancels is extremely bad, especially when your opponent still has one or even two. It would make it so that bursting doesnt put you from a bad spot into another, slightly less bad spot, but into a truer neutral game state.
Evening the playing field by either reducing the aggressors burst meter so they dont have whiff-advantage or reducing super meter so they dont have access to all the fancy moves(especially ninja and wizard profit greatly from super meter).

What do other people think? 

Also obligatory thanks for the game ivisly it has been a phenomenal amount of fun and i hope threads like this are not grating on your patience :D

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You really provide real good ideas to the table. Combo can be nice, but might be too busted with some combo setups. Burst/level drain on opponent could also really work. Removing agressor's resources and forcing them to play on hard defence could bring an interesting punishment and strategy to when to burst to steal the levels, same with actually using specials more often for Cowboys and such.

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i have not really labbed combos but i can see some pros really going to town with combos on burst. Though i feel like it is at least in line with the game in the sense that some nasty fighting game stuff happens :P

So it might be a bit much, because i really feel its only a small bit too weak. there are places where you get a combo out of it already(when you burst your opponent into the corner) but that is also balanced by being glaringly obvious. It certainly has its uses but it doesnt feel like an option i really want to take 90% of the time.

I guess its that Bursting is the only option you have when getting combo´d(disregarding DI for the moment) so it becomes increasingly easy to read and bait as people get more acquainted with the mechanics and setting up combos. It just feels bad to spend all your burst bar only to still be in a really bad spot even when you are successful.

But to your point: i know wizard is very happy to be far away even without meter and burst bar so getting bursted and losing meter would not be as bad for them but it would at least level the playing field measureably. If i send the wizard flying and they still have meter from their previous combo they just start using their supers to set up the ideal wizard ball pit of hell while i have to think about actually getting in.
Without meter Wizard is limited to their usual magic missile spam which can be annoying but it is not that bad. Ninja losing access to quickstrike also really limits the approach options and cowboy not getting free access to damaging teleports with 1000 cuts also helps to enforce a more neutral game state.

Sure at the end of the game its a game about reading your opponents mind, but limiting options makes that a lot easier. If i spend two of my whiff cancels i could be using to get a combo on something else I better not be in a bad spot afterwards