Post by itoldyousoso in Gender All the Things! comments

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yeah, that game is practially what native speakers of many languages do every day unconsiously and learners of that language curse about when learning it. and it gets worse if your look at other languages or even your own for some words.

french and german. la luna, der mond. (female) the moon, (male) the moon.

oh and there are some languages that use two and some that use three genders for nouns. and it is not about any attributes that will tell the gender. it is just the base form of the noun. it includes the article. like you would call "to talk" as the base form of the verb talking. german "die frau" is base form of (the) woman and the article carries the case of the noun. so you will encounter "der frau" as well. (der is male article, but also a flexed version of die). "die tasche der frau" is the bag of the woman or better that woman's bag.

grammatical gender is just that. grammar. it is a way of delivering the information about the case the noun has. english does not use an infleced case system. in german you need those, since you can order words around in a sentence without changing meaning. you usually cannot do that in english.

and because it is just grammar, you can also have words for persons that have a non grammatical gender and that word will not have the same gender as that person. it is just the grammatical gender of the word

fun fact, while speaking, if you accidentally used the wrong article you sometimes can save it during speech, by switching to a synonym for the word, that has the matching gender.

I had no idea about a girl being a neutral gender in German

it sometimes is called neutral or neuter, but also it can be called literally "used for things" or "thing-like". it is not male,female, neutral. it is male-ish, female-ish, thing-ish.

so you cannot simply use "it" for nonbinary people in german. it would be an insult.

there are some neutral nouns for persons which just shows that grammar gender is just grammar. das genie for example. the genius. and of course das kind. the child. or das mädchen. the girl. das baby. the baby.

so if you refer to a person by a noun that has neuter gender, it is not an insult, if you use the "it" pronoun. which gets complicated, if there are several nouns with different genders you can use and did use in a longer text. trival example is a kid and it's name. (which would be a kid and his name in formal english. there are remnants of grammar gender in english after all). so if you talk about a kid named angela (a female name), but also refer to her as a kid you would refer to her as "it", till you introduce her name in the text.

and if you are not confused enough, some words have more than one correct gender. it depens on dialect or meaning. butter is encountered as female and male. ketchup as neuter and male.

aza8 days ago

Yes! Yes! All that!

And my native language (French) doesn't have a neutral grammatical gender, but then I learned some Dutch and German, as well as English with its "it" pronouns, which all made me really comfortable with the concept of separating actual gender, sex, and pronouns and grammatical gender. I know the use of it/its pronouns for a person, like you mentioned, is really touchy and loaded in English, but I jumped to claim it the minute I realised I was nonbinary (on top of also using they/them and she/her), because this feeling of being completely divorced from any gender at all, even grammatical. It gives me the same gender euphoria that Beth described above. Especially since it is impossible for me to get that in my native language.

In French, I can be a she the same way that Beth is a she (deliberate, conscious, that's our gender), or the same way that a table is a she. And in English, I can be a they the same way that a stranger with an unknown or irrelevant gender is a they, or I can be an it, the same way that a table is an it.

Genderrrrrrrrrrrrr

Beth and Angel Make Games8 days ago

"It" is often an insult in English, too. In fact, a friend of mine uses "it/its" pronouns and says it has a hard time getting people to accept that because they don't want to insult it. But... those are its pronouns! It's a cyclical disagreement lol

And goodness... I love grammar, and this is a lot of really awesome data grammatically! So if I'm hearing this right, if say a hand is given a masculine reference, then even if you say "her hand" it would be masculine. That sounds a lot like how, for a long time, the person who delivered mail was "the mailman" regardless of their gender. The same for like "garbage man" and some others that I can't think of now, since they've mostly been rephrased (although a lot of people still use the old, gendered terms).

I also LOVE the idea of part of the euphoria over a pronoun is because it's NOT EVEN POSSIBLE in other genders. That makes it even more of an act of rebellion, even more special.

itoldyousoso8 days ago

So if I'm hearing this right, if say a hand is given a masculine reference, then even if you say "her hand" it would be masculine.

i am not sure if i understand. an article is not a pronoun. a pronoun is a word that it used instead of the noun. for the noun. pro noun. you could use the noun instead, like you might hear it in japanese anime, when children or odd characters speak of themselves "in the third person".

the article is part of the bare form of the noun in gendered languages. it is inflected accordingly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflection and stays with the word in many situations and in that bare form, article+noun, you will know the gender of that noun.

in german hand (die hand) is feminine, so i shall use foot (der fuss), which is male. the foot of a woman is always male, but you will only see the gender of the word for a body part by the inflection of the person's pronoun. in other words: you do not say "her the foot" "ihr der fuss". you inflect the pronoun. ihre hand. ihr fuss. her (female) hand, her (male) foot.

so the article of the noun foot/hand is telling the gender of the owner* and the gender of the body part. but sadly not in an unambiguous way.

* the owner being the noun - which can have a different gender than the person it is used to refer to.

regarding chosen pronouns:

i disagree that a person can or should chose pronouns. a person might "switch" genders and assume the role of the other gender and thus use that gender's pronouns.

i regard inventing or appropriating pronouns as on the same level as inventing or using a formal title. like king, lord, count, professor, doctor, sir, lady, queen, supreme ruler of the galaxy, president, village idiot. and i consider it socially unacceptable to use a title that was not given by society.

one should not get "identity" by the usage of pronouns. that is not identity. it is grammar. and grammar is supposed to convey meaning. and meaning in language is needed to be understandable by more than one person. what is the meaning of using the pronoun "it" or "they" or "xe"?

in german, selfusing "it" has no meaning, beside being an insult or telling people you have a big ego and want special treatment. even for babies you use gendered terms, once you know the name/sex of the baby. by using "it" one would not convey the meaning of not belonging to either gender. and there are only two, even in german. the third gender is lack of a gender by being unspecified, by having that gender in the bare form, or by being not applicable - which would sound like "it" would be the perfect choice, but unfortunately this is not so. the dehumanizing insult meaning of using "it" for a person is too strong a hurdle to use it. pity. would have been handy as there exists grammar for "it".

the usage of "they" in english for a single person sounds stupid and very wrong in my non native speaker ears. but the hurdle is lower, because there are some long established cases where it would be correct and of course it is not perceived as an insult. but those cases are scenarios where you typically would not even know the number of persons. it does not convey the meaning of unknown gender, it is conveying the meaning of an unknown person. using they for a known person makes no sense. also, if you use it as such, you can easily have a sentence where the reader will not know if you are talking about several persons or someone that approprated that pronoun.

i get why pronouns are important for people, but so are names and meanings of words and grammar. if it is important to someone to tell their chosen gender, they should just do so. and then use established pronouns that are fitting to their name. pronouns are supposed to be shorthand. if you overload them with gender re-affirmation, that shorthand-ness is gone and the meaning changes from simply being a substitute for a noun to a reminder of that person's chosen gender identity. (i was talking about non standard pronouns here)

i would prefer to not focus on gender/sex all the time in texts that have nothing to do with that topic. this is awful in german as well. there are people forcing the topic by using forced/constructed gender terms that are grammatically wrong and misleading. but this is the wrong way! we need to give gender less importance, not more. and citing it all the time, be it by using chosen pronouns or by using arbitrary constructed gender terms does give it a weight it should not have.

we (western free culture) live in a society where all people can do and like all things/persons. be they girly or manly, regardless of gender/sex. focussing on gender all the time is a step backward, not forward.

itch.io

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