Post by ab50721 in SPECTACLE comments

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Before continuing, I will give you all lots of credit in general. This is a well constructed game overall with a great soundtrack and mostly solid content. I will always have a place in my heart for these types of games and please don't take any of this as anything other than constructive criticism - the overall quality of stuff you put out is very good and I hope you keep going in the future.

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With that being said, once you get the yellow key and move onto the next part of the game (which will remain unnamed to prevent spoilers - the devs will know what I am talking about), it becomes completely illogical. The "hint" provided in the piece of reading material you find along your way is not indicative one single bit of how you're actually supposed to apply it. It's not a tune or sound when it comes to to apply it in-game, so why say it is, or even act as if the player can use it in that fashion? Also, how does one logically die in said area in nighttime conditions...? The directional "hint" given is completely irrelevant as well, as traveling in that direction will always bring death because it's a multitude of directions in a specific order (with limited chances and forced back to start each time), not just one as the hint indicates.

This brings back lots of memories of puzzles like "throw spider at dead butler with no hint - just use until something works after 75 deaths" from Uninvited.

That really did turn me off to the game honestly, because as much as I love Uninvited, I loathed the handful of completely ridiculous and illogical puzzles in that game. Puzzle games should be winnable without walkthroughs or obscenely cryptic hints. The puzzles previously were very tough in many cases, but none of them were like this which is why I still had the determination to keep trying and got through them all until now. Hints so cryptic that they will require a walkthrough in most player's cases should never be a necessity in games like this, as you only truly get to play them as intended once.

I may pick it back up again in the future, but that's gonna be it for me for now. That type of gameplay isn't engaging - it just makes you lose interest very quickly. All of the others puzzles were challenging but fair. If this is an indication of how the game ends, it's gonna be tough to find the motivation to finish it.

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My honest, overall opinion (hey - this is the kind of feedback you guys ask for) is that this game is solid, but missed the mark in this very vital way. I think you did so much better in terms of a well constructed puzzle game overall with Infested. It may not have been as flashy or have as nice of a soundtrack (fantastic soundtrack in Spectacle, by the way - especially the outdoors track. Catchy stuff!), but the puzzles clues made sense (even if slightly confusing to begin with).

I'd probably give the following number scores to each game.

Spectacle - 7/10

Infested - 10/10

As I said originally though - don't stop! I'm one person sharing one opinion and not everyone will approve of everything you make. Your attention to detail and quality productions I've seen so far will ensure I will be interested in the next game you create. I just wish some things had been done differently in Spectacle - it started off amazing and then lost it's spark rather quickly for a player like me who's not interested in needing a hint system to beat the game.

Cheers!

GrahfMetal4 years ago

We really appreciate the criticism (not sarcastically), so it's all good. Thanks for the feedback. Just to be clear, are we talking about the path required to get through the desert? The idea behind that puzzle is;

[SPOILERS]

According to the book Theives would sing a song "Sacred Suns Enter Sun Weathered Sands Weilding Sorcerer Slaying Scimitars" to navigate the desert. This is meant to show that they needed a tune in order to remember the direction to take. The tune of course having the first letter in each word indicating a direction, i.e. S S E S W S W S S S or South -> South -> East -> South -> West -> South -> West -> South -> South -> South. So by taking these directions through the desert will see you safe the the other side.

The second part to the puzzle is knowing that North, East, South, West is NOT Up, Right, Down, Left as one might presume, but rather it's Left, Up, Right, Down according to both the giant compass on the ground near the desert and because the Sun rises from the East.

Also, dying in that area in the nighttime is simply from being lost and exhausted.

Hopefully this helped. If not, please don't hesitate to let me know and I can certainly give more or different details

Thanks again!

schrepfler4 years ago(+1)

Mind. Blown.

ab507214 years ago (2 edits) (+1)

Thanks for responding! I did end up gathering at least the part in the book from another family member who is also quite impressed with your work :)

Yes, that is the puzzle (wasn't sure how much could be said in public comments) and I think your response does help put into perspective the kind of feedback I was looking to provide. To some, that may seem logical, but especially in ICOM-type games, that's kind of misleading. With the game having a number of Shadowgate-esque spells (and Shadowgate being famous for spells within a book - especially the NES version), the hint seems to indicate that this is literally a spell you need to determine how to learn/chant to prevent dying/getting lost in the desert (this was also loosely implemented in Uninvited when using the spell to get out of the maze you get stuck in). Logically, when one tries to pick up the book, use the "spell thingy" on it etc. (trying to limit spoilers - sorry LOL, couldn't think of a better vague name), if that's not the intent, then the ICOM game nature was usually to give at least some very (and possibly VERY) vague hint along the lines of "What you think this means may not be the real meaning" or perhaps another item (such as one of the scrolls) being a little more descriptive in what to do next- something like that. Something that tells the astute player that they really should be paying better attention to the meaning behind this item. Instead, the response is very stock such as "what did you expect", or "you don't need that here" or something.

Like I was saying in my previous post, I just feel these types of games should never leave a player with almost no choice but to use a walkthrough because of vagueness (the scrolls and other lore in the game didn't help with this piece either because they refer to them solely as the Southern Lands - parody that to Deja Vu II when you need to go to the mafia's laundromat. The direction to reach it given in the game is the literal and only direction you need to take - no others). Most important reason for this in my opinion is because you only get to experience them as intended once and that experience is extremely watered down when the answer has to be given to you. There are many players out there who are vehemently against walkthroughs who may end up feeling the same.

The reason I say these things is nothing other than to help out and share my opinions, so please always know it's in complete friendliness. You have a great talent for making these types of games and I think if the puzzle system met somewhere in the middle of Infested and Spectacle, you would probably have something you may even be able to sell at this point (I know I'd buy it). You've proven the quality of your work overall - I honestly wondered why this game was free itself ;)

If you're done with this conversation, not a problem at all - I just hope maybe some of what I said makes sense and helps when designing your next awesome adventure. Take care!

GrahfMetal4 years ago

Thanks for more feedback and suggestions. It's always welcomed and we appreciate the continued support for sure. Don't hesitate to give future criticism or feedback if you find anything else either. We definitely consider everything you're saying and in future patches may tweek thing or two here and there.

ab507214 years ago (4 edits) (+1)

Well, thanks for being receptive and respecting the point I was trying to make :)

Overall though - this community loves your games - including me. It's rare you see such dedication to re-creating those classic games with brand new content in such a sharp way and clever way (and holy cow, the Spectacle soundtrack is catchy indeed - that overworld theme especially. Amazing stuff). I must admit, at first I was slightly turned off by the lack of 8-bit music, but the soundtrack is just so good it totally overshadows that and fits perfectly.

From the bottom of my heart - thanks for all you do and I only hope anything i've suggested is helpful at some point.

Also, I did read a little below - interesting. I've been struggling to get the fruit as well and I thought I cleared the monastery already (maybe I didn't though - I still get flattened like a pancake when trying to go over the balcony ledges). No spoilers please :) - i've decided to give it another run and want to try and figure this one out - there has got to be something I missed because all of those puzzles were really neat in my opinion (especially the levers).

Anywho - hope you have a great weekend!

ab507214 years ago (2 edits) (+1)

Ended up figuring out how to get the fruit (can't believe I didn't think how before-hand. There was a very clear clue in the general area).

Evil stitch is a pain in the a** though XD, definitely gonna need to think about this one.

After that one puzzle, it definitely got a lot better again. The subtle (even vague but still clear if you pay attention) hints are back and it feels much more appropriate in my opinion :)

/edit - aha. So evil stitch can be defeated. Nice one there. That was clever and took a minute but again, paying close attention pays off :D

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GrahfMetal4 years ago

I'm sorry you feel that way. We put a lot of work into this game on our free time with no intent on making a profit on it, but rather to have fun and put a smile on people's faces. Thanks again for your earlier advice and we're sorry to have disappointed you. Just know that we do listen and although your words hurt, we take any and all criticism into consideration. Take care

ab507214 years ago (4 edits) (+1)

Oops - I think I somehow I deleted my previous comment on accident. My apologies and feel free to restore it if you can - I tried to click "Edit", which now has now functionality :(

Well hang a on sec though - I'm definitely not trying to make you feel bad or anything - everything I said originally stands and this is not meant at all to be a hit at your skills. Yes, two major puzzles so far seem to have extreme flaws surrounding the clues leading up to them, but that doesn't negate from the rest of the game and your hard work. It just shows that you made your first attempt at a MUCH larger-scale game this time around (and were mostly very successful) and maybe there are some kinks that need a little fine tuning in your puzzle designing process - that is all. I would also maybe give some more info when examining things too (i.e. Evil Stitch and the Fruit - both areas had the clues if you were looking/examining). The starter page listed above tells you to rely on "Exam" alot, but Exam very rarely gives you anything that really helps unless you already saw the oddity yourself before even examining it. Pixelated games like the ICOM (and ICOM-inspired) adventures should be very careful relying on that in my opinion.

You haven't disappointed anyone if you take a look at the overall product you've created. You guys kicked a** with the game interface, soundtrack, extra features to make it more user-friendly, etc. Your game "engine" is beautiful, hands down. Every aspect of the game outside of what I've said about puzzles is beautiful to be honest.

And again and always keep this in mind, these are my opinions only - you did this for us for free and you went WAY above and beyond compared to the basic interface that Infested had. It's just the wandering in circles with no hints from examining things, etc. - there's a little too much of that in this one.

Sorry if my previous comment came off that way to be honest - text is hard to convey sometimes (this is a great example of why I never, ever handle personal topics of high tension via text either), but don't feel bad at all. I've simply played a TON of these games (I finished Shadowgate Re-imagined on both Apprentice and Journeyman without a walkthrough - i haven't played the hardest level yet), so I just have a lot of memories of ICOM-esque puzzle structure for comparison.

/Edit - the puzzle I was talking about was the rock wall. There is absolutely no way I can see to have figured that out without basically clicking every pixel on the screen. This is a key area where "Exam" fails heavily. Unless you click the exact spot intended, you'd never know you're doing anything wrong since the spell also works on the incorrect answer as well. Leaves the player believing the incorrect answer is the correct answer once they find something else which is not actually there.

ab507214 years ago (4 edits) (+1)

Well - I decided I'd give it a third and final go because honestly, after serious thought, your work deserved me to at least finish it after getting this far and how good the quality of the actual game was overall. I ended up finishing it with minimal hints moving forward.

After the rock wall, the puzzles got a bit better again - here's some final thoughts for you.

--- Awesome Final Puzzles -----

The polearm puzzle was actually very, very good and I love how it takes ideas from Shadowgate and expands upon then to actually make certain un-useful things useful ;) - i'm sure you know exactly what I mean.

One of my favorite puzzles in the game honestly was the lamp puzzle. I really like those types where the answer that seems obvious is always wrong and you have to think about how you, as a person, would introduce another factor into the obstacle you are facing. Fantastic touch on that one.

The last puzzle was really neat too - I liked how you made us think about the resources available to us and that many of them can have certain uses in the given situation. One thought on this - maybe some sort of message that the intended effect took place to reach it. I thought I crashed the game the first time I triggered it.

Lastly - love the direct homage to Uninvited (will always love that game even if the puzzle system was abysmal for the sole fact that the ghost lady scared the living crap out of me when I was like 8 XD). That was hilarious and yet (plus, the extra surprise if you do the wrong thing is both awesome and suggestive if you are really paying attention and examining the things you find).

---Puzzles I think Need Work---

The Xspot puzzle was a little odd I will admit - not sure where you would have known to apply that one outside of an educated guess. Once I knew where it was used, it was very logical once translated through earlier hints, but If there was a hint as to where to begin, I missed it.

The grey key - probably would have benefitted from more area hints. Accessing what you need is pretty obscure and again, no hints are given until you examine the correct pixels. A nudge would have been useful here.

The Gold/Silver puzzle - After using a hint it sort of made sense, but there just wasn't enough guidance or hints that I found. I knew the general gist of what the thing was, but I don't think I would have ever known what to do to determine the answer without a slight hint.

Overall, the majority of the puzzles were pretty good it seems. There were a handful that did not make sense as i've specified previously, but as others have suggested in other comments, an in-game hint system that may give secondary, vague clues for these situations may completely fix that problem. Or, perhaps additional clues written in are necessary in the form of a better Exam system. It was far too limited in this game - no question. You're the developer, so i'll leave that to you - just thoughts on my end.

BUT, after playing through in it's entirety, I think it's fair to give the game a slightly upgraded review based on everything in total. It still isn't the caliber of puzzle structure of Infested, but it's not awful as a whole and as I said originally - with some fine tuning on your puzzle structure, your third game is gonna be an absolute smash (and I surely hope you sell it this time - we've benefitted enough from your time for free :) )

------ Final Scores ------------

The game looks, sounds and functions amazingly. These things cannot be overlooked. While puzzle structure is more important than anything (and Infested hit the bulls-eye with this one), these things are important too.

One other thing - as amazing as the soundtrack is (and I loved it, please don't get me wrong) - Infested preserves the ICOM experience even further with the 8-bit music (another absolute gem). Taking both of these into account:

Infested - 10/10

Spectable - 8.5/10

Take care and thanks again for listening to my feedback.

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