Post by evolvent in Horde Survivors comments

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That's a great game! I found it to be quite addictive (I even managed to win the v1.1 with all the characters). I wanted to return to this page to give a few remarks and a list of things that could be improved (in my opinion!), and I found there's the v1.3, so I had to give it a try. I did that, and I have even more comments now :—). Hopefully you don't mind a wall of text — I wrote far more than I initially intended.

Comments for v1.1:

It seems like the best strategy is to form "conga lines" of monsters. You move ever away from them, they follow and you hit them using the magical attacks. Because of that, the magical attacks seem to be much needed in order to win.
I really liked the differentiation between the weapons. I found them all to be useful in one way or another, except the hammer. Here are some random observations:
- Bow: great for bosses. With a couple of upgrades you can easily kill the dragon face-to-face (you need to make sure that it is hit by most of the arrows).
- Fireball: very good for kiting a mass of monsters, because it shoves you forward when it explodes and you make a head start. Probably an unintended use, but I like it, and it's a good payoff for its randomness.
- Slash: quite nice from the get go. The upgrade that makes it slash backwards is far more useful than any other.
- Hammer: maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to be the essence of uselessness. It has a very short reach, a huge cooldown, and pitiful damage (only 10 or 15, it seems), and an unintuitive swing (I haven't figured out how it works, and with multiple hammers, I can't ever tell how many times will any given monster be hit). I would propose having each hammer go full 360°, improving the damage and cooldown by a lot (it's really for close quarters and you never want to be close to the monsters, so it needs to pay off well), and perhaps adding a knockback or stun effect so that you don't need to pay precious HP for each attack.
I like the fact that the monsters stop when they hit a wall. It makes the game more manageable and you have more "strategic choice".
After the dragon comes, perhaps it would be good to show an arrow that would point in his direction. Occasionally, he would get stuck on a wall and I would be searching for him like mad. (Sometimes I even got killed by the swarms before I could find the stuck dragon and kill it!)
The automatic use of attacks every n-th turn is great. I think it would be cool if the cooldowns were relatively prime. Now they seem to be 2, 4 or 6, and so the pattern of attacks repeats often. Using 2, 3, 5 and 7 would give more variety.
The "special places" with boss fights and rewards are a nice touch. However, the game is so tight that there is often no time to go there. Furthermore, when the boss' minions appear everywhere around you, you will often lose more HP in the fight than you get back when you take the healing potion as a reward. The boss fights for experience gems seem to be hardly worth it (I guess there should be at least a full level-up). It would also be good if the reward weren't blocked right away by the boss so you could grab it.
The initial swarm of rats seems to be a bit too large. For the non-magical classes, this swarm seems to be a much more of a problem than the later ones. Moreover I would consider lowering HP of the "thieves" (the next wave); there seems to be a very sharp spike in difficulty (the rats will die with one hit of anything while the thieves need at least 4 or 5) and maybe sending a bit less of them.
It would be nice to have health bars for the monsters. Especially with the bosses and the later enemies that have a lot of HP, I never know whether I need to kite them some more, or if it would be better to turn around and hit them with the "front attacks" because they're near death.

Some more comments for v1.3 (they're going to be quite negative and I'm sorry for that, but I found it to be a big step back in terms of enjoyment):

The hordes seem to be way too big. In v1.1, I was able to win with all the characters. In v1.3, I never got even close to winning with any of them. With so many monsters, the game essentially plays itself because most of the time you have only one sensible choice (to run straight away from the monsters). Another effect is that you cannot collect the gems from the monsters you've killed until you make a huge circle with the mass of the monsters on your heels, and often, even when you manage to do it, another wave of monsters comes from a different direction and blocks the access to those gems by literally standing on them. (This also happens with other goodies like potions and chests and it's even more painful with them). The result is that when the orcs come, I'm level 3 (as opposed to 7-8 in v1.1), and sometimes I haven't been able to get even to the level 2, and my un-upgraded abilities are not enough to cope with them.
Having removed many of the walls that were in v1.1 just adds to the problem. In v1.1 many monters would become stuck on them and you could get a moment of respite when you needed it; the monsters wouldn't also be coming at you from all directions.
Adding new special places with bosses is nice, but now there seems to be no way to visit them and not die. The treasure chests and combat numbers are solid additions too. Making the movement animation faster is also great.
The character variations (more/less demage from certain abilities, more/less HP and so on) also seem to be more hindering than helping, especially the fact that the "melee" characters have a -XX% penalty for magical attacks. These characters are already at an disadvantage because the "melee" abilities aren't as good for wiping out large hordes, and now, even if they acquire a magical attack, they will still be weaker with it. I don't think that the characters need to be balanced — in v1.1. some were easier than others and that was OK. All of them need to have a fair shot at winning, though.

PTrefall2 years ago

Wow, an amazing wall of feedback, evolvent! I can tell that you've played both version 1.1 and version 1.3 a whole lot!

I will need some time to digest everything that's in here, but my initial reaction is that I see where you're coming from.

On v1.1 I could quite consistently beat the game myself too (well, I'm impressed that you beat it with the archer!), while in v1.3 it has become a lot harder, and also one seems to be forced to bate enemies into these lines as one flees away, unable to gather gems at the rate that would be needed to keep up with the power curve.

You definitely touch on a lot of balancing issues, and it's to be expected. I really want to expand the game beyond the initial 1.1 version, and for that I have to experiment with it, and in the process risk that some versions are much harder (or much easier) as we stabilize the formula and find what works and what doesn't. To get there, feedback like this is priceless!

Awesome ideas on the hammer. I've been thinking of ways to improve it myself, and these were some good ones!

I really want the buffs and debuffs in there to make each choice of character more than just a different starting ability, but it adds complexity to the formula that will need some time to stabilize, and with that added complexity, more item variation is probably needed to add a wider possibility space as one seeks to beat the power curve.

There was a lot of detail in this post of yours, so please give me some time to digest it over a couple more reads, and I'll see what can make it into v1.4, or a later version.

Keep the feedback coming, and I think we can turn this into a pretty amazing game! I want the game to be hard, but I also want it to hit the good notes when XP trickles in and enemies fall in the dozens around you. It's supposed to be a dopamine rush of a game, with high replay value and where getting consistent wins require mastery, but it should be more than just running away while going pew pew with the spark and boom boom with the fireball until the last boss falls.

So, we've got some work to do!

evolvent2 years ago(+1)

Well, thanks for reading all of that! Of course I know that balancing is a rough ride that mostly ends either in "too easy" mode, or in "too hard" mode. And I get where you want to be going with the game (and I would call that the right direction). (By the way, I was trying some more plays with the axe slash guy, and I even got to see the dragon! (Not that I got to hit it, though.))

Anyway, some more random thoughts:

If the game should require some mastery to win consistently, we should ask where that mastery will be coming from. I think that most of it will be coming from the strategic (high-level) considerations like: what level-up to take, when to go beat a miniboss, when to run for a potion, when to try to collect the gems that were previously left on the ground somewhere else. Since the dragon boss comes in a fixed amount of time, the object of the game is essentially to prepare well for its coming (while not dying in the process). At the high level, I guess this could be considered a game of risk management (risk too little and you will be unprepared, so you won't have much chance on taking out the final boss, risk too much and you get killed). And that itself needs to give the player a way to manage the risks.

The core game loop seems to be very solid, but it doesn't allow for too much tactical (low-level) mastery. There's a couple of things we can do, though. First of all, I think there should be more obstacles and perhaps other "terrain": you can use it to split the monsters or make them get stuck (and of course you can get stuck yourself). That's interesting to manage.

The second thing is that we can "get rid of the conga line". The line emerges so much because of three factors: 1) all the monsters go straight towards you; 2) you don't want to be close to them; 3) all the weapons work best when the monsters are tightly packed and/or as many of them as possible are on the same straight line with you.

Each of these factors can be quite "easily" removed: 1) make some monsters move in other fashion (e. g. if they're too tightly packed let them go perpendicular to make sort of a circle); 2) make the close combat less fatal; 3) add attacks with other patterns (circles or something more spread-out).

Another thing that could be done: let the heroes block 1 point of damage each round. That could allow for more daring tactical maneuvers with more considerations (do I get more into contact and risk getting enveloped, or do I chicken away?), as well as fulfilling the point 2 above, but it won't save you if you really screw up; also bosses do more than 1 damage, so you will still get hit by them.

PTrefall2 years ago (1 edit)

The latest version doesn't address everything you've touched on (I wanted to get the release out today), but let me know what you think about v1.4 ;-)

evolvent2 years ago(+1)

I will gladly try it, but I won't be able to do it before Sunday as I'm going away for the weekend. And of course you don't need to address anything that I wrote about, that's just a random opinion and it can certainly be wrong :—). However I read the changelog and it sounds good.

By the way, I managed to beat the v1.3 yesterday with the archer, so it's not as unplayable as I first whined about, but still it's really hard and in some parts I had only little control over what was happening.

PTrefall2 years ago

Thanks a lot man for your continued effort, well done beating the v1.3! Did you cross paths with the big black dragon yet btw? He's the key to a top secret challenge win ;-)

All your feedback makes my head spin with other ideas too, and plans I have for the future of the game. So even when one of your suggestions doesn't make it in 1:1 it still might be part of a decision that somewhat yield the same result, or is close enough to plans I already had.

All this feedback is super valuable!

evolvent2 years ago(+1)

No, I didn't meet the big black dragon. I was glad to be able to grab the amulet with the last few HPs.

I tried the v1.4, starting with the archer. Since I was already able to beat the v1.3 with him, it was easy and I won on the first attempt. However, I wasn't able to win with any of the other characters, despite having tried it quite a couple of times (with the slasher and with the spark mage). I got pretty close though.

First off, I like that the projectiles are turn-based as well (btw. also the flying numbers are turn-based now which feels a bit funky but it's nothing serious of course). and I was surprised to sometimes get three things at once when opening a chest. XP numbers are a good addition too.

On the other hand, the difficulty seems to be roughly the same as in v1.3, i. e. it's quite hard. The fact that the monsters can break walls increases the difficulty, although not by much (and I think that if the monsters can do it, the player should be allowed to do it as well — I would like it better if the walls couldn't be breached though). And I don't think I've managed to catch an occurence of heavy figure pushing through lighter figures (but I guess it's hard to see anyway, and at least it looks like I was spending less time inside the flies than before).

Some random observations:

With the spark mage, the necessary (but of course not sufficient) condition of at least getting to see the dragon is to have a well-upgraded fireball and at least some bow. If you don't get the fireball by the time the bats come, you're dead. Up to that time, you get 2 levels and 1 chest if you play well, and that still leaves much to chance.
Why is it so? Because the bats are faster than you and you need something to get rid of as many of those bats close to you as possible. Sparks do not suffice because they kill a couple in one line but you need to kill primarily those who are immediately dangerous for you. And the fireball has the advantage of blasting you away from those bats, giving you a good head start. (The axe slash is OK for this too but it's not as good because you need to wade right into the bats for it to work.)
This is even worse when swarmed by the beholders or demons. Sometimes the situation is just so bad that you get hit for 5 or 10 (or even multiple hits) each round without being able to do anything about it, and you're toast in couple of rounds. Again, the only thing that can save you is the fireball, however weak, because it blasts the monsters and yourself in opposite directions, giving you a much needed break.
Generally, I think that all ordinary monsters should be slower than the player. Some of them maybe just ever so slightly, but I think that if the player wants to run away from them, they should always have the opportunity. Leaving the monsters unchecked isn't really useful anyway, and running away from them will likely bite you later. Bosses, on the other hand, should be kept as they are.
It is true that the individual monsters walk in more zig-zaggy patterns, but when they make a big horde, the entire horde will just pretty much go straight towards you and we get the good old conga line.
Btw. it would be good if the fireball would be thrown only at enemies that are reasonably close. Just now, I was killed by the dragon just because the fireball was shot at some enemies that were far off screen instead of at the dragon, like 5 times in a row. Hitting the dragon repeatedly with the fireball was the only thing that could buy me enough time to kill it with the inefficient slashes.
Some random bits: broken walls seem to change to some random terrain which looks kinda weird; there's still a typo in the hoarder ability (HORDER); the music transitions are a bit buggy (e. g. if you grab a treasure in the final bossfight, you get the treasure music and then the normal music instead of the boss music; you also don't get the victory music in the case of your victory).

PTrefall2 years ago

Wow, I can tell you put a lot of effort into this, thanks a lot for the feedback! It looks like 1.5 will be a pretty big update! I have a long list of things to do now.

I think we agree that there needs to be some new abilities, and perhaps some of the current abilities should get some additional functionality, like a stagger on whirlwind and/or slash. E.g. more abilities that affect the movement ability of your enemies, because that is definitely the most important aspect.

It would be nice if melee guys didn't "have" to use magic abilities in order to win, though hybrid builds should still be viable.

Since a lot of the attack abilities are quite random, I've been hesitant to let the player destroy walls, but I'll think about it. There is probably a way to make that work. I like the dynamic of walls being a temporary blocker for enemies, but not a permanent one. It allows you a breather, but it's not going to let you carefully funnel in enemies until you win. I think that together with a lot of the other changes coming into 1.5, wall destruction can still work ;-)

Thanks again man, much appreciated feedback, as always!

evolvent2 years ago(+1)

Well, I don't really put much effort. I just play the game 1-2 times in a row and then I go about my usual work for several hours or a whole day. And after that, I write up a wall of text (but writing something short would be more complicated! :—))

I absolutely agree that the melee attacks in particular need to get boosted. A knockback or stun effect would be great (as I noted when I was ranting about the hammer :—)).

Anyway, just now I had a particularly fortunate run with the axe slash guy, so I was even able to kill the dragon. But I didn't win! The monsters just stood on the amulet all the time and I couldn't get them to go away from it. I tried to run circles and lure them away but I got killed in the process (essentially if you don't run straight away from them, you get hit, and if each of those hits is for 5 or 10, you can't afford to take many of them).

I think that reinforces my point about the monster speed. The monsters in general should be slower than they are now, and none of them (except bosses) should be allowed to be faster than the player. I suspect that the archer is so much easier to win just because he has the 30% speed boost which is just what is needed to evade the monsters efficiently, have them run circles without being hit etc.

PTrefall2 years ago

Yes, speed and movement is the most complex thing to get right, because it impacts all things!

I still have a bit of work left on 1.5, but a little sneak peak is that staggering is added, and because of it I'll hold off on changing monster speed a lot, because it will impact movement a lot.

Due to the physics involved, a staggered enemy will also slow down any monsters behind it.

Staggered monsters won't just stop, they will also not attack, which helps a lot for melee builds.

So let us see how this impacts the balance og everything, and readjust the difficulty in 1.6 ;-)

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