Post by PTrefall in Horde Survivors comments

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Wow, an amazing wall of feedback, evolvent! I can tell that you've played both version 1.1 and version 1.3 a whole lot!

I will need some time to digest everything that's in here, but my initial reaction is that I see where you're coming from.

On v1.1 I could quite consistently beat the game myself too (well, I'm impressed that you beat it with the archer!), while in v1.3 it has become a lot harder, and also one seems to be forced to bate enemies into these lines as one flees away, unable to gather gems at the rate that would be needed to keep up with the power curve.

You definitely touch on a lot of balancing issues, and it's to be expected. I really want to expand the game beyond the initial 1.1 version, and for that I have to experiment with it, and in the process risk that some versions are much harder (or much easier) as we stabilize the formula and find what works and what doesn't. To get there, feedback like this is priceless!

Awesome ideas on the hammer. I've been thinking of ways to improve it myself, and these were some good ones!

I really want the buffs and debuffs in there to make each choice of character more than just a different starting ability, but it adds complexity to the formula that will need some time to stabilize, and with that added complexity, more item variation is probably needed to add a wider possibility space as one seeks to beat the power curve.

There was a lot of detail in this post of yours, so please give me some time to digest it over a couple more reads, and I'll see what can make it into v1.4, or a later version.

Keep the feedback coming, and I think we can turn this into a pretty amazing game! I want the game to be hard, but I also want it to hit the good notes when XP trickles in and enemies fall in the dozens around you. It's supposed to be a dopamine rush of a game, with high replay value and where getting consistent wins require mastery, but it should be more than just running away while going pew pew with the spark and boom boom with the fireball until the last boss falls.

So, we've got some work to do!

evolvent2 years ago(+1)

Well, thanks for reading all of that! Of course I know that balancing is a rough ride that mostly ends either in "too easy" mode, or in "too hard" mode. And I get where you want to be going with the game (and I would call that the right direction). (By the way, I was trying some more plays with the axe slash guy, and I even got to see the dragon! (Not that I got to hit it, though.))

Anyway, some more random thoughts:

If the game should require some mastery to win consistently, we should ask where that mastery will be coming from. I think that most of it will be coming from the strategic (high-level) considerations like: what level-up to take, when to go beat a miniboss, when to run for a potion, when to try to collect the gems that were previously left on the ground somewhere else. Since the dragon boss comes in a fixed amount of time, the object of the game is essentially to prepare well for its coming (while not dying in the process). At the high level, I guess this could be considered a game of risk management (risk too little and you will be unprepared, so you won't have much chance on taking out the final boss, risk too much and you get killed). And that itself needs to give the player a way to manage the risks.

The core game loop seems to be very solid, but it doesn't allow for too much tactical (low-level) mastery. There's a couple of things we can do, though. First of all, I think there should be more obstacles and perhaps other "terrain": you can use it to split the monsters or make them get stuck (and of course you can get stuck yourself). That's interesting to manage.

The second thing is that we can "get rid of the conga line". The line emerges so much because of three factors: 1) all the monsters go straight towards you; 2) you don't want to be close to them; 3) all the weapons work best when the monsters are tightly packed and/or as many of them as possible are on the same straight line with you.

Each of these factors can be quite "easily" removed: 1) make some monsters move in other fashion (e. g. if they're too tightly packed let them go perpendicular to make sort of a circle); 2) make the close combat less fatal; 3) add attacks with other patterns (circles or something more spread-out).

Another thing that could be done: let the heroes block 1 point of damage each round. That could allow for more daring tactical maneuvers with more considerations (do I get more into contact and risk getting enveloped, or do I chicken away?), as well as fulfilling the point 2 above, but it won't save you if you really screw up; also bosses do more than 1 damage, so you will still get hit by them.

PTrefall2 years ago (1 edit)

The latest version doesn't address everything you've touched on (I wanted to get the release out today), but let me know what you think about v1.4 ;-)

evolvent2 years ago(+1)

I will gladly try it, but I won't be able to do it before Sunday as I'm going away for the weekend. And of course you don't need to address anything that I wrote about, that's just a random opinion and it can certainly be wrong :—). However I read the changelog and it sounds good.

By the way, I managed to beat the v1.3 yesterday with the archer, so it's not as unplayable as I first whined about, but still it's really hard and in some parts I had only little control over what was happening.

PTrefall2 years ago

Thanks a lot man for your continued effort, well done beating the v1.3! Did you cross paths with the big black dragon yet btw? He's the key to a top secret challenge win ;-)

All your feedback makes my head spin with other ideas too, and plans I have for the future of the game. So even when one of your suggestions doesn't make it in 1:1 it still might be part of a decision that somewhat yield the same result, or is close enough to plans I already had.

All this feedback is super valuable!

evolvent2 years ago(+1)

No, I didn't meet the big black dragon. I was glad to be able to grab the amulet with the last few HPs.

I tried the v1.4, starting with the archer. Since I was already able to beat the v1.3 with him, it was easy and I won on the first attempt. However, I wasn't able to win with any of the other characters, despite having tried it quite a couple of times (with the slasher and with the spark mage). I got pretty close though.

First off, I like that the projectiles are turn-based as well (btw. also the flying numbers are turn-based now which feels a bit funky but it's nothing serious of course). and I was surprised to sometimes get three things at once when opening a chest. XP numbers are a good addition too.

On the other hand, the difficulty seems to be roughly the same as in v1.3, i. e. it's quite hard. The fact that the monsters can break walls increases the difficulty, although not by much (and I think that if the monsters can do it, the player should be allowed to do it as well — I would like it better if the walls couldn't be breached though). And I don't think I've managed to catch an occurence of heavy figure pushing through lighter figures (but I guess it's hard to see anyway, and at least it looks like I was spending less time inside the flies than before).

Some random observations:

With the spark mage, the necessary (but of course not sufficient) condition of at least getting to see the dragon is to have a well-upgraded fireball and at least some bow. If you don't get the fireball by the time the bats come, you're dead. Up to that time, you get 2 levels and 1 chest if you play well, and that still leaves much to chance.
Why is it so? Because the bats are faster than you and you need something to get rid of as many of those bats close to you as possible. Sparks do not suffice because they kill a couple in one line but you need to kill primarily those who are immediately dangerous for you. And the fireball has the advantage of blasting you away from those bats, giving you a good head start. (The axe slash is OK for this too but it's not as good because you need to wade right into the bats for it to work.)
This is even worse when swarmed by the beholders or demons. Sometimes the situation is just so bad that you get hit for 5 or 10 (or even multiple hits) each round without being able to do anything about it, and you're toast in couple of rounds. Again, the only thing that can save you is the fireball, however weak, because it blasts the monsters and yourself in opposite directions, giving you a much needed break.
Generally, I think that all ordinary monsters should be slower than the player. Some of them maybe just ever so slightly, but I think that if the player wants to run away from them, they should always have the opportunity. Leaving the monsters unchecked isn't really useful anyway, and running away from them will likely bite you later. Bosses, on the other hand, should be kept as they are.
It is true that the individual monsters walk in more zig-zaggy patterns, but when they make a big horde, the entire horde will just pretty much go straight towards you and we get the good old conga line.
Btw. it would be good if the fireball would be thrown only at enemies that are reasonably close. Just now, I was killed by the dragon just because the fireball was shot at some enemies that were far off screen instead of at the dragon, like 5 times in a row. Hitting the dragon repeatedly with the fireball was the only thing that could buy me enough time to kill it with the inefficient slashes.
Some random bits: broken walls seem to change to some random terrain which looks kinda weird; there's still a typo in the hoarder ability (HORDER); the music transitions are a bit buggy (e. g. if you grab a treasure in the final bossfight, you get the treasure music and then the normal music instead of the boss music; you also don't get the victory music in the case of your victory).

PTrefall2 years ago

Wow, I can tell you put a lot of effort into this, thanks a lot for the feedback! It looks like 1.5 will be a pretty big update! I have a long list of things to do now.

I think we agree that there needs to be some new abilities, and perhaps some of the current abilities should get some additional functionality, like a stagger on whirlwind and/or slash. E.g. more abilities that affect the movement ability of your enemies, because that is definitely the most important aspect.

It would be nice if melee guys didn't "have" to use magic abilities in order to win, though hybrid builds should still be viable.

Since a lot of the attack abilities are quite random, I've been hesitant to let the player destroy walls, but I'll think about it. There is probably a way to make that work. I like the dynamic of walls being a temporary blocker for enemies, but not a permanent one. It allows you a breather, but it's not going to let you carefully funnel in enemies until you win. I think that together with a lot of the other changes coming into 1.5, wall destruction can still work ;-)

Thanks again man, much appreciated feedback, as always!

evolvent2 years ago(+1)

Well, I don't really put much effort. I just play the game 1-2 times in a row and then I go about my usual work for several hours or a whole day. And after that, I write up a wall of text (but writing something short would be more complicated! :—))

I absolutely agree that the melee attacks in particular need to get boosted. A knockback or stun effect would be great (as I noted when I was ranting about the hammer :—)).

Anyway, just now I had a particularly fortunate run with the axe slash guy, so I was even able to kill the dragon. But I didn't win! The monsters just stood on the amulet all the time and I couldn't get them to go away from it. I tried to run circles and lure them away but I got killed in the process (essentially if you don't run straight away from them, you get hit, and if each of those hits is for 5 or 10, you can't afford to take many of them).

I think that reinforces my point about the monster speed. The monsters in general should be slower than they are now, and none of them (except bosses) should be allowed to be faster than the player. I suspect that the archer is so much easier to win just because he has the 30% speed boost which is just what is needed to evade the monsters efficiently, have them run circles without being hit etc.

PTrefall2 years ago

Yes, speed and movement is the most complex thing to get right, because it impacts all things!

I still have a bit of work left on 1.5, but a little sneak peak is that staggering is added, and because of it I'll hold off on changing monster speed a lot, because it will impact movement a lot.

Due to the physics involved, a staggered enemy will also slow down any monsters behind it.

Staggered monsters won't just stop, they will also not attack, which helps a lot for melee builds.

So let us see how this impacts the balance og everything, and readjust the difficulty in 1.6 ;-)

evolvent2 years ago(+1)

Looking forward to that! I really think that the melee needs something more going for it (I've got a successful win with the axe slash guy though).

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evolvent2 years ago(+1)

I tried the v1.5.2 a couple of times and there's a lot to say. I even recorded a video of me playing (I got an easy win with the archer; I killed the big black dragon, and in fact it didn't even touch me). So if you are interested how a "veteran player" (😃) played the game, you can look at it at https://is.muni.cz/de/darek/horde.mp4 (beware though, it has ~200M and since it's on a temporary deposit provided by my university, it will remain there only for 30 days). I will probably refer to it when I write more.

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