Post by Mask in Fear & Hunger comments

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Correct me if I'm wrong, iron arrows are only useful to the Outlander? Otherwise, you need a bow, a skillbook that teaches you to use them outside of combat, two arms(?), and iron arrows? The iron arrows can help the Outlander, they're nice to find, but I fail to see how the RNG is helping much in this case.

Something more to point out, is you search probably three hundred containers over a play-through. This actually makes for less RNG in relation to loot, it should balance it out so you always get roughly the same haul. In the games mentioned, they tended to have rather few treasure rooms, which could hold amazing buffs that stack together, or just reasonable ones. This made for a greater sense of RNG, positive RNG.

Beartraps are cool, not debating that. But, is that what you meant by being able to find the best equipment at the start? A couple of bear-traps? Those are one-use items, and can't be used against most of the bosses in the game. Their best use is just holding off Crow Mauler so you can get past him. Though, running away after you enter combat works pretty well, too, so I'm not sure they're even that much help.

Explosive vials are pretty rare in the early game, if you find one you can use it to speed-run pretty effectively. Extras are nice, as they do work to make most fights a lot easier. So, I agree... if you find a dozen explosive vials at the start, the game will be a lot easier.

Don't you think that is a pretty specific scenario of RNG helping? In the examples I gave, Binding of Isaac and Enter the Gungeon, there are a lot of item combos you can find that make you pretty powerful, in a variety of ways.

orange~5 years ago (1 edit)

Iron arrows can be used by everyone without skills. And again Empty scroll is all items and skills in the game. There are bunch of items that help you if you know how to maximize their use. But just like iron arrows can become huge help with correct layout, empty scroll is overpowered to the point of almost breaking the game with enough knowledge.

I don't really know what you are expecting, because those same items are pretty good in endgame as well. If you want some game breaking items, this is really not the kind of game, because there are no such items even in the end.

Mask5 years ago

Thanks for correcting me. If the main character has a bow equipped, they can use the arrows, and those are pretty useful (if you don't lose an arm...). So, if you get lucky and find a bow, then when you find iron arrows that will be nice buff. I'd say that's a fine element of positive RNG.

Empty scrolls are really nice.... You can get a Sergal Spear or a Book of Enlightenment, or learn any spell. But... that's NOT RNG, is it? It's like cheat codes, if you know the codes, you can get three Sergal Spears with three scrolls. So, it is random a to whether you get a scroll, and if you know how to use it you can get some very epic stuff.
But... that's basically a way for people who use walkthroughs or have won the game to have an easy time beating it the second time, not really RNG of the style of other rogue-likes, like Binding of Isaac. You yourself have just said they're potentially game-breaking. If you wanted to balance that, you could make it so that really powerful items can only be asked for once, and that it's related to your affinity with the associated god. There are a lot of easy fixes, if you take some time to balance and fix.

What everyone expects is a balanced game and a bug-free experience. Saying, "Well, there's RNG, that makes it OK," doesn't excuse bugs, it doesn't excuse stuff like a high miss rate everyone complains about (particularly youtubers). These problems persist through all playthroughs, and having to pray that you don't miss the enemy twice in a row and don't run into a game-breaking bug isn't RNG design, that's relying on God to fix the game.

orange~5 years ago (1 edit)

Oh no of course not! I never meant to say that RNG somehow makes bugs and balance flaws okay. This topic was about RNG and that's why I was talking about that.

If you had looked around this itchio page a little and its comments section, you might have noticed that I've said numerous times that bugs and balance are being worked on as we speak. I don't want to give a picture that these things are being neglected, because that certainly isn't the case. I'm working 8 hours/day with this game still even after its release.

Mask5 years ago

Didn't you see my comment? Sometimes, I don't get a notification when someone replies to me, so it may've happened to you. I asked you why updates are hard to make. There are people playing the game, right now, on youtube, showcasing horrible game-breaking bugs. So, I asked you why it is that updates are "so cumbersome," as you called them. Not all changes would be save-game compatible, sure, but an amount of the bug fixing should be, and it'd be easy to test for that. From what I know of RPG Maker MV and itch, I can't see how it would be cumbersome.

It's no good releasing the game in an unfinished state, then saying you're working hard to finish it after releasing it. People are very sick of early-access games these days, and Steam reviews tend to be cynical. A lot of developers promise to finish/fix their games, and never get around to it, so it will read as BS to the Steam community. Since you said you don't know anything about Steam ("I didn't know Steam was such a big deal"), I figured I should tell you.

To repeat myself, bug fixes should be launched as soon as possible, both so that people get a good impression of the game and its development, and so that you can see if new bugs are introduced. It also lets you turn your attention to other bugs that crop up.

orange~5 years ago (2 edits)

Oh right, I actually answered to your comment too when I replied to the parent post, that's why you probably didn't get a notification.

I do think making updates is a bit clumsy on itchio and gamejolt because people have to visit the site every time to download them separately. There is no way to let people know of these possible updates, unless they follow the game on some platform. The good news are that Steam makes auto-updates possible. So I'm happy to tell that in future even smaller updates are a lot more likely because of the ease in both making the update and distributing it to the player base. yay!

No need to repeat yourself. We have had these same discussions many times already and it's pretty clear we just disagree on this matter. No biggie.

...Actually, no, we don't disagree. Because I agree that bugs and balance need fixing, but I just don't see the doom and gloom scenario.

Mask5 years ago(-1)

I mean... you didn't even know Steam was a big deal. I figure you should trust the people with experience with Steam, instead of guessing how it might go. That's not doom and gloom versus naked positivity, this is experience versus dreaming.

I think people do check the Itch.io pages. You can even notify everyone who bought your game with the analytics options, so as to tell them about major updates/patches. And if they complain about bugs, when there is a patch you released on the main game page... then their complaints are truly hollow, and will ring so to others.

If you patched the game, fixed some bugs, and the balance of stuff like high miss rate and enemies that hit you with the parts you just destroyed, the major youtubers of the game would all be complimenting you for it, for responding to their feedback. They'd give a positive impression about the game and its development. They are dedicated people who keep track of updates and are part of the community, so they would notice updates and patches. As it is, we can only guess at how many people were turned off a purchase because of bugs in the let's plays.

By the time the update comes out, most of the LPers will have finished F&H. We don't even know what viewership the extra area you're adding will get compared to the main campaign. People like endings, so after Ending A gets posted on youtube, it's likely viewership will start to decline.

I think you shouldn't worry so much about little things like, "it's awkward to download a patch off the game page," and worry about the big ones like, "thousands of people are witnessing bugs in my game." A poor presentation on Steam is a big one, too; whereas releasing a couple of weeks later would be a small one.

itch.io

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