Post by Kinda Good Games in Rate 4 Rate - Feedback exchange

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A lot of ratings doesn't mean I get good feedback, not everyone shines in giving good feedback and people have different opinions, that's way more feedback is always good! And everyone here needs feedback, since this is mostly a learning experience, I've already seen quite a lot of newer people to game development and I try to give them some insights and my opinion.

And if my previous comment implied that rate for rate determines exactly which people are active, I'm sorry, that wasn't my intention, it's just some rough estimate for which people still rate and play games. For example there are some people inactive here in the forum, but really active on discord, I know quite some people that talk a lot there but I haven't seen them posting here yet, posting rate for rate posts here allow people to get the attention to their game's that maybe wouldn't have seen my game. People get the chance to have a guaranteed feedback in rate 4 rate, while rating random games may be not as efficient, since you don't know if the other person still actively plays game or wouldn't play your game for a multitude of reasons.

Another thing with r4r feedback is that it is assured that there is some higher quality feedback, there are also quite a lot of people that just say something short and compliment the game, but don't actually give you meaningful feedback, which is not always the best. That can sometimes be due to the game being too perfect, but this is rarely the case, it's almost always that you can improve something, but some people have better eyes for that, I'm not perfect either, it also relies a bit on the amount of the game.

Nonetheless it's of course important to priorise people that are really in need for more ratings and feedback. They do need to get some feedback, this jam for example I saw a really good game with low ratings and the developers were also really cool, so I decided to boost their ratings a bit by also promoting their game sometimes. They also helped me a bit with my trailer, this is just the spirit of game jams, to help each other improve. But there are of course also a lot of people that just don't value good feedback, just made some sort of troll submission (I saw this quite often during the GMTK Jam) or just don't play other peoples game and I'd rather play somebodys game, which they appreciate me for than somebody that doesn't really care. This is why rate for rate is in my experience so good, you can just see which people are actually intrested to improve, maybe take some inspiration and are willing to do something in order to better themselves. That's why I personally think that this rate 4 rate format is actually pretty useful.

But this is all just from my perspective, I do have quite some experience tho, this is my 4th Brackeys Game Jam and I have participated in 5/6 Game Jams (depends if you count one of the formats that i were in, it was more of a semi jam). And this is just my personal experience over the last jams. But of course, maybe you see this differently. I would be glad if you shared your opinion too, since im open to some discussion about this topic and also maybe gain a new insight about r4r, since I know that a lot of people love r4r, but some also hate it.

Kinda Good Games1 year ago(+1)

The comment kind of got long, sorry 😅

JK50001 year ago(+1)

'Rate for rate'-posts is in my eyes a clear symptom that we have forgotten what a game jam really is. 'Rate for rate' or lets instead call it 'feedback for feedback' should never be something you need to be asking for, it should just be something that happened when you give great feedback to somebody, and you should then have a high chance they do the same thing for you. Sadly we have forgotten this, and now we have to beg for something that just should be a natural part of any game jam.

The issue is that there in game jams has been a high focus on the game development part, and not so much on the social and feedback part of the jams. This have sadly made it more and more difficult to make everybody taking part of the feedback and rating part of the jams.

Then what happen was that somebody saw that writing 'Rate for rate'-posts helped them to get some feedback and ratings, and now we gotten to a point that you have to take part of this kind of posts to get any attention. The issue with this is that it does only help them that is taking part of those posts. We now see a lot of people (and you are one of them) that already gotten a lot of ratings/feedback, that is still keep collecting more and more attention through 'Rate for rate'-posts.

I do get your frustration on the issue with the lag of great feedback, but it's clear that the 'rate for rate'-post does not seem to help much there. I have looked a bit on the feedback you have gotten, and most of it seem to be of the kind that is nice to get, but perhaps not help you a lot in the future. And I got a feeling that a lot of what is written, is mostly done to make you play and rate their games. Maybe what you are writing make them think the same about you, but I don't know what you have given of feedback so this might not be the case.

I think in general the 'Rate for rate'-posts is popular because they seem to be working, but I actually think they have created a bad culture where we asking/begging for other people to give our game some attention, but we do not really getting it. What we instead is getting is some more or less superficial comments, that shall bring you to play there games. Of course there are some you that don't do that, but I also seen a lot of 'Rate for rate'-posts feedback that was nearly useless.

I don't know what you see as 'troll submissions'. I agree there is some not very good games, but it's not necessarily because they are trolls, but in many cases they do just not have the time or ability to make something that is better. And I also think it's okay to make a meme game. I don't see them as a big issue, and they take nearly no time to play, and give them feedback is also not something that take a lot of time. I totally understand if you don't want only to play this kind of games, but they are also a part the game jam, and they are just doing there thing.

In the end I just want all people to take part of the playing/ratings/feedback part of the jam, and I see the 'Rate for rate'-posts as a bad solution, that really don't help anybody. The focus should instead be on posts reminding everybody to rate and give feedback to all the games that needs it. There should also be a focus on how to give better feedback.

And I am also sorry this messaged is so long. But I hope you better understand what I see as the issue. Because of your long and well written reply, I will play your game and give it some feedback.

Kinda Good Games1 year ago(+1)

Thanks for your reply, I agree that this is like the major reason why these posts exist. But quite a lot of people just are too afraid to say something negative, since they fear that they end up getting a worse review because of that. I've seen a lot of games where there were some design issues, that made the game much worse. I had that same experience last jam, where i had a really big problem in my game, which made it way worse. People trying to get a lot of ratings is something I don't think is too bad of a thing. It's always good to get more feedback.

And yes I agree, that the biggest issue is that not everyone plays the games that they've played, but that's not just because of bad culture. Yes there are quite a lot people that just don't care about returning the favor, but a lot of people are busy doing other things, so they just don't have time, since the 1 week period during development already takes a lot of time and you are probaly not able to merely focus on the jam and other people for 2 weeks. That's in my opinion unrealistic. R4R is of course not always useful, it's just one method of promoting your game. For example, I have recently started doing r4r again, I promote my game in the extra channel for that in the discord and I also mention my game a lot when having a conversation with other people in the jam channel. I also made a trailer and just in general try to play games. They all contribute to getting high ratings.

About troll submissions, I don't remember if these were here too, but there were people just uploading random friday night funkin mods, fnaf mods or similiar or other weird or suspicous stuff, but that was quite some while ago, but I don't remember if that was in the BGJ an issue.

And another thing is that quite a lot of people don't participate in playing other peoples games. These usually tend to be the lower rated people, due to the karma system. Getting ratings in jams is mostly about how much effort you put into it and how much you understand putting attention to your game. And rate 4 rate is just one of these methods, maybe not the best, but it's mostly working. And I don't want to say that low rated people don't put effort into their game, it also may be due to their thumbnail not being the right one or just playing the games of the wrong people. The bad culture was already a problem before, r4r may have exaggerated it, but it gives people a more reliable way to gain feedback.

Kinda Good Games1 year ago(+1)

Btw Thanks for playing my game, I'll also play yours later, I'm a bit busy rn

JK50001 year ago

The bad thing about people want to get a lot of feedback and ratings is that it take a awareness of people that nearly get nothing. I want all to have a great experience, and not just the few that is want to push their game to everyone. Like your time is limited, is everyone elses time also limited, so let the time people have to play games be used on them that really needs ratings/feedback and not used it on the games that already have a lot people play them.

I in general believe it's more important what you do for others, then what they do for you.

Kinda Good Games1 year ago(+1)

Everybody wants to get lots of feedback, pushing your game to other people does not take away awareness from other peoples games. If two people play the same game, one game doesn't get highlighted just because of their count of ratings. Neither does this happen during rate4rate, everybody gets equal chances on gaining ratings and feedback. So this argument does not make that much sense from my view. And yes everybodies time is limited, but game jams are mostly about having fun and learning. Just limiting yourself to games with low ratings, can be fun, but it's just not the whole experience. A lot about getting reviews is also about the appearance of your game. If you have a decent game with webgl build and a nice thumbnail, it's probaly enough to get 20+ ratings in the first 3 or so days. I see a lot of people that just don't put effort into their appearance of the game. It's just another part of game development, if your game's appearance isn't good people won't be intrested and won't play your game. And not playing other people's game just makes it worse for you. This is something too that the developers should learn. Pushing your game is just a part of a jam, just like in the real world. Of course there will be someone that finds your game and maybe play it, but it's also a lot up to you, wether you are dedicated enough to try and show other people your game. But of course there are always exceptions, but this is my estimate on the general jam community. People that play more games and try to advertise for their game usually tend to be the ones getting more ratings. If you help others more and try to advertise your game, you usually end up getting more reviews. The more work the better the result. Playing other peoples game is also a passive way of getting ratings.

I agree that helping others can improve your own skills too, especially when explaining topics, but it's in my opinion important too that you actually gain something too, especially in jams. Jams are a lot about lifting each other up, if the other person isn't willing to return the favor, it's probaly time to choose another person.

JK50001 year ago

Game jams is NOT about ME it about US. The idea that you can just play, rate and give feedback other people games was once right, but can clearly see that this not happening very much any more. The main issue here is 'Rate for rate'-posts and other self promotions has taken way too much of the attention. It shall not be a talk about me, but I have now played, rated and given feedback to 87 games and I have gotten 14 ratings. I have played games with a few ratings, but also games with a lot of ratings. Anyway it should never matter, it should be possible to get at least 20 ratings to nearly all games, and when that happens we can open for the self promotion.

Sadly has the issue grown a lot, and now it's become more and more a competition where we have to be begging for attention. This was much less of an issue just a could of years ago. I can as an example say that the first game jam I took part of, I got about 150 ratings without having to do any self promotion, now you have to fight to get just 10 ratings.

So like I have already said, use the promotion to make everybody better game jammers, and in the end it will not just give other people more ratings and feedback, but it will also help you. And then the game jams will be for YOU and ME.

Kinda Good Games1 year ago(+1)

Yea that a good message. The biggest issue today is probaly people being afraid of .exe files, I saw that you didn't have a WebGL build. People are just way more afraid to play dowloadables. Also there are way less people in this jam than it used to be and it isn't like the corona time, so way less people have time. It's just sadly how it is. And also usually jams with lower development time probaly have more ratings, since the games are shorter, while in a 7d jam the games are more complex. Yes it is important that jams are not only about you, but it is like not really possible imo that everyone gets ratings without promotion in a long jam. People that put effort into this should be rewarded, but everyone should atleast get enough feedback to learn, but that's just sadly not possible.

JK50001 year ago

My first game jam was about 8 year ago and it had nothing to do with corona, and it was by the way a .exe file, and yes WEB builds was also normal then. There is more then time enough if everybody understand that they have to do more. In my eyes is self promotion just a bad excuse to get all the attention. And when we give a little or no attention to most of the games, then the interest in doing anything will of cause disappear, so you could help you self by making them interested in being more a part of the game jam. And then will your self promotion not be necessary.

I know you don't like I am saying it, but it is about creating a culture where everyone (or at least most people) take more part of the game jam. And self promotion do not help here.

Kinda Good Games1 year ago(+1)

Okay, that's a pretty unique take on solving this issue, I tbh never heard anyone saying this before. I started game development way past this time that you were describing, how many people were participating in that jam, if I may ask?

Saying that we should recreate this type of culture is easy, but hard to fullfil, a lot of stuff has changed since then and also the motivation and standards have changed. How would you even do something like that, I'm quite curious how you would do that. But from the current view this just doesn't seem time worthy or doable. How are you even supposed to reach out to everyone and what exactly do you propose to do? And is it even timely possible. That's just not possible from my current view

JK50001 year ago

It's not a very unique take, but the self promoters do just yells very loudly.

There is many ways of doing this, and here is just some ideas.

1) Remove all self promotion from the Community page. Especially in the first week of the jam. The same should happen to all peoples that just write 'good game' to all or nearly games.

2) Use the Community page to make a positive and constructive Community, by telling what a jam is and how you are suppose to behave when you are part of a game jam. And use the Community page to;

Bring focus to games that need ratings and feedback.
Tell people how they can write better feedback. Tell them that good feedback is not about self promoting, and tell them that feedback is both to tell what is good, but also bad about the games.
Tell them that 'rating for ratings' is something we just have to do, and it's not something we need to ask for.

3) There should also be a video introducing how we should take part of the game jam. Here it's important that there should be more focus on the community part, then on the game making part. Of cause it should also have a focus on the game development.

4) I would love to see a price given to people fighting for making game jam communities better.

5) Streamers/youtubers that will focus on playing, rating and giving feedback to games that really needs it, could also help. They can also put focus on what we expect from game jammers.

6) I know when a jam starts here on Itch, it's possible to write a email around to everybody that tells things about the jam. Here you can write again what we expect you to do, when your are taking part of a game jam.

7) It's also possible to remined people, when you are given feedback, that they are expected to do the same thing. And I here don't say that you should self promote, but you should tell them to play, rate and give feedback to games that needs it.

8) When we first begin to have a better community, there is high chance that we begin to remind each other how we are suppose to behave. This is the culture I am taking about.

There could be done a lot more things, but the goal should be to make games jams better for everyone and not just for the self promoters. In the end it would create a even more active and better community, that is not just about ME but about US.

I strongly believe it would make game jams more fun for you, and it would make it more fun for everyone else. Self promotion at best helps you, but it does not help the community.

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