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(+6)

If you want to argue against AI you should use better arguments.

It starts by not applying the word stealing wrong. If I steal from you, you no longer have the thing I stole. What you really mean is, used without consent.

And it is debateable, if consent is necessary in all cases. Furthermore, as soon as you have an AI that does not retain the stuff in its database, your argument is invalid.

This is because putting your stuff out there will "train" humans as well. They could imitate your style and the determination if they "stole" your work, is not by method but by result. And this is currently true for AI generated work as well. I can not use AI to plagiarize your work and get away with it, just because I used AI.

But I can very well use a human trained or programmed machine that will replace your job in about any other context and no one bats an eye. (Ok, they would, but not about the method, only about the result.) 

My point is, if you fixate on such details about AI, your arguments will not hold true for more advanced AI. So better start now with having future proof arguments.

Oh, and it is creative work. Do not underestimate the work needed, to create good looking AI art.  It is lots faster and needs different skills to make it, but it is still a human doing that work.  Just like you still have a human operating those factory robots.

That thing with the derivative work, where is the line? There obviously has to be one, since there is a smallest unit, like a pixel and even with concepts, like mysterious smiling woman with crossed hands. If I rearrange parts of an orginal work to create a new work, when does it stop to be derivative? When is it considred a new work? Especially if I use more than one original works and blend them as inspiration for my new work. If a human could do it legally  , forbidding the use of machines to do it, is very hard. And you could even start from scratch, because this type of visual art tries to imitate nature. Like painting a portrait or a landscape. So is art actually derivative of nature? Where is the original originality? Is it turtles all the way down? One artist copying from others till you get to nature? 

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Please. Software piracy is also widely considered stealing even when no physical object is removed. If you're going to posture about "better arguments" you should consider not wasting time with pointless semantics.

Prompting generated 'art' is NOT creative; you are just doing a pattern search which contains ZERO expression on your part, again akin to googling images and picking one of the results, then claiming it's 'your work'. And no, typing search keywords is NOT expressive. Also no, a little 'in-painting' to re-roll your search doesn't change that either.

Only someone who doesn't understand anything about creativity would compare machine pattern extraction with humans learning from and being influenced by other art. They're not even remotely similar. People talking like these glorified search engines are one step away from "advanced AI" are fully delusional.

Any responsible lawyer will tell you commercial use of derivative AI generated images based on copyrighted work that you do not have license to use is copyright infringement. For this same reason, Valve recently announced they are not accepting game submissions that contain AI-generated material for which the developers cannot demonstrate they have full rights to use 100% of the material involved, which if you're relying on any of the popular image generators you cannot because they're ALL built on stolen work, which you have no rights to whatsoever. The only legally acceptable way to use generative AI commercially is if you train it from scratch exclusively on data you have the rights to use, so either your own work, or properly licensed or public domain material.

(2 edits) (+6)

I would not go over semantics in this discussion, stealing is fine if you look at it this way. I am not sure if it applies, but courts will decide that. 

All that said this will not change anything at all, even if the courts decide midjourney can not use public available images without consent (unlike in japan), all that happens is that a company with way more money way bigger (google, microsoft...) will buy rights to enough images to just train their model (in addition to cc0 art). At which point we are right back where we are right now. I honestly have a different view then you (stealing vs not stealing), but in the grant scheme of things it just does not matter. These generators are here, maybe its not midjourney, maybe it will be open ai with microsoft money who trainst their next dalle with just images where they have the right to. It will come and it wont be stopped, maybe slowed down a little.

When it comes to creativity, I always smile when people bring these arguments. Because what is creative the skill of being able to draw or deciding on what to draw? Or is the skill to translate the language into a picture?If it is the skill of drawing a printer is creative if it is deciding what to draw the user of an AI image generator is creative. If it is the translation of language into a picture it would be the AI generator itself. But once again I am not sure whats the point of the discussion, I think there will always be a place for human drawings, just way more niche then it will be and there will be alot of uses for AI art as well. I also dont think the the skills are the same or if we need to discuss about whats creative and whats not.  I think the hostility against AI art usually has nothing to do with any of the things I mentioned above, it is because people love that they can paint for money and they dont want to lose the opporturnity and I completly understand and feel with you. The sad truth is that automation doesnt care about if people like the job or not and we have to somehow deal with that.

For me I am using art from asset packs right now for my game, it certainly does not make a difference if I am using AI art and pay a small tech startup or I am paying a small art company providing these art assets. It is just different people getting payed, maybe you dont like the company I am paying, but who says that the art company is any better?

So my question to you is, if I would use AI that only used cc0 images or images where it has the rights to do it, would it really make a differnce for you. (Like let's say adobe firefly)

And bonus question do you also feel the same way about my game if I continue to use premade assets?


(+1)

Very good points. You are better with words than I am. I see similar issues as you, but expressed them differently.

The pure skill aspect is very visible with a street painter that makes caricatures in a few minutes. I believe there are photo filters on phones that do similar.

And the non skill expression aspect is very visible with a toddler happily fingerpainting. 

There is a little simile with the work of canvas painters and photographers. A photographer need not know how to paint. But what he creates is a picture. So is it art? It is not even artificial (before the rise of photoshop). With the skill definition it is of course art. You need to know what you are doing, or your photos do look boring or even mechanicaly bad, like unfocused.  But you did not create what is seen in the picture. You only chose what of the hundreds of snapshots you took will be released.

So in a way, what an AI operator does has similarities with what a photographer does. And tickling out good AI images also takes skill. If you take photos of humans you even need to give them directions. So my best guess would be, that the best AI operators would currently be good photographers that grasp the language they need to instruct the AI.

(+3)
Software piracy is also widely considered stealing

Wich does not make it any true. Even piracy is the wrong word. But it was used so long so wrong, that it now has that meaning. If you use such incorrect terms you run risk of  belittling the issue. People do not take it serious. Like, this is killing me. But you actually can steal software, and databases, source code and so on. Calling the unauthorized use or copies also stealing is not helping.

which contains ZERO expression on your part, again akin to googling images and picking one of the results

This is not true. It is more like being a lector.  You give your unpaid moneys typewriters and  guidelines and then sift through the garbage and refine what you seek. 

Only someone who doesn't understand anything about creativity would compare machine pattern extraction with humans learning from and being influenced by other art. They're not even remotely similar. People talking like these glorified search engines are one step away from "advanced AI" are fully delusional.

You do realize, that the best pattern recognition apparatus known to man is the human brain? This is what our brain is all about. Patterns. We are good at that. And this is exactly how we learn! Repetition of patterns. We internalize the concepts and know how things are supposed to look. A reason why zombies and clowns are frightening (it is called the   uncanny  valley). They violate the known pattern.

Did you ever try using one of these AI? I did.  And I do not see happening what you rant about. And ranting it is, complete with ad hominems. I repeat: you need better arguments. Going emotional and insulting people is not good arguing.

You also seem to try to elevate  what human artists do somehow. It is a  skill and what you call creativity is not some mystical emergence of being human. It is your brain creating associations by comparing stuff it knows and linking it in new ways, with limitations of applied mechanical skill.  Art is not a synonym for creativity. It is a synonym for superior skill and prowess.  While you do create something,  a creative expression is not needed for art. Nor is something that "was expressed" art.   

I get why people get so emotional about those AI stuff. It chips away at what they think makes us humans human. Not only some mere manual labor. But what I see, much of what people call art is just that. Manual labor.  And other stuff was just expressed, but would not qualify as art, if no one told you.

Any responsible lawyer will tell you commercial use of derivative AI generated images based on copyrighted work that you do not have license to use is copyright infringement

A responsible lawyer would tell you that the issue is not resolved and you should be careful to release such stuff, until the garbage law that exists has been tested in courts. If it were so clear, there would not even be a debate. And what you failed to say, that the reason valve does discourage it at the moment is precisly because it is not so clear. You tried to tell it like valve discourages is, because it is clear and forbidden. Did you even read the article you tried to argue with?

I am not saying  I am pro AI or whatever corner you try to paint me in, with your qualifier veiled insults. I am only saying you need better arguments. Because current issues might be resolved and what then?  Argue against machines taking  our jobs? Go full on Dune with the Butlerian Jihad against the thinking machines? And for the generative AI stuff as you call it, what about AI that indeed were trained with public domain and licensed training materials? How do you argue against them?

(2 edits) (+2)

Again with the pointless distractions that have no bearing on the topic at hand.

Spoken like someone who doesn't have the first clue what creativity is. What you're describing is giving instructions for *someone else* to create something. They are doing the creative work in this scenario (to the extent that AI output can be called 'creative'), not you. You are a client commissioning an image, nothing more.

I am well aware of what the article says. Valve is being cautious because they would be legally liable if they didn't, and they make a point of never having opinions about anything, but there is no ambiguity.

In fact these things ARE already covered by existing laws and the only reason we're having this conversation is that asshole tech bros without principles continually break the law and then hope they can get away with it by buying politicians AFTER they've already broken it (see the entire history of Silicon Valley).

"a creative expression is not needed for art" LOL

This conversation is not worth continuing.

(+3)
"a creative expression is not needed for art" LOL

You fail to argue against that statement. Laughing and belittling is not arguing. 

Look at a caricature painter on street. Is he expressing his feelings when doing a caricature of you in a few minutes? Or is he working and applying his skill? Is his painting  art or is it not?

What do you think about the artistic work of a photographer? Is it art, when he waits for the perfect moment to take a picture of a sunset?  Was it creative expression?  What did he create exactly and how?  He just took a picture!  He only decided what picture to take. Or he made hundreds and thousands of pictures and selected  a few.  Sometimes he arranged things and selects influences like lighting. Or directs people how to pose for the camera.   Yet people make art books from such photos, call it art and I do not know of any discussion that people do not consider it art.  

What does an AI operator do?   He arranges things, influences the composition of the image and selects the good ones. If what a photographer does is art,  what an AI operator does is art too. On a technical level, what the AI does is not art, but that is like saying the camera does not do art. Of course not. They are things.

Oh, and I believe a photographer also has copyright for his creations, even if he does not own the sun and the landscape. That AI creations have apparantly no copyright is on thin ice, because there is still humans involved.