Post by GCMar in Password comments

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This is a pretty good write-up that covers a lot of my thoughts as well. I debated with a friend over writing a similar comment in hopes it would be seen and some certain things about the game could be changed, but it seems I don't need to do it myself now. I'll also try to limit spoilers going forward, but I wanted to add my thoughts as well.

Password definitely has strong character development, but as you say, the weakness in some areas of the writing do hinder it somewhat. It can take too long and be wayyy too wordy at parts, going over the same exact things multiple times to the point where I would groan and wonder just how much longer this segment was going to continue. Day 10 was a big shift downwards for me, honestly, and the stuff after took what felt like forever. The payoff was good, though, and was a good moment. However, I do feel like my experience was lessened by picking Sal first. Some things just happen differently in a way that probably weakened the overall experience for me. In fact, the password I was supposed to have entered around that time was just outright spoiled later in the game even though I had never entered it, which I assume is an oversight that slipped through the cracks. In a game like this, that's bound to happen, so I can't be mad at it.

As you say, the overall mystery and delving into morphic resonance was pretty good, and it's easy to draw the lines between Password and the Zero Escape series (999). I just feel the need to echo my dissatisfaction with the "true" ending. It's a heavy black mark that honestly ruined the game for me and a friend. Path A is definitely the "better" ending but knowing what's out there and the time investment to complete it is... just such a bummer. The effect it has on the story and everything that happens... I don't want to go more into it because of spoilers, but I reeeeeallly hope this is revised in the final product. It's just so frustrating, but with all the respect towards the author and the story written. I say this with love because I grew to care about the game. (Also, #justiceforsal because he's honestly treated the worst in the game... I didn't even like him, I picked him as a middle choice, but man it kinda feels like the author didn't even like him either.) ((Also also that one bit with Tyson near the start is pretty bad too...))

I think that covers what I wanted to add/emphasize. Password is overall a fine game with some great character development that could just use some trimming and some revisions in places, namely the endings (Oh, and, the antagonistic force in the last third to fourth of the game, that all felt a bit rushed.)

Grizz1 year ago(+1)

I'm genuinely curious to hear why the true ending is such a black mark.

GCMar1 year ago(+1)

Sure, though my language is probably too harsh maybe? The game is still good, and it's still a good time playing it. There's no real way to avoid spoilers when talking about the ending, but I suppose I'll try to be as vague as possible. I'm just writing some more filler text here so maybe the spoilery bits are hidden by the expand prompt, even though it seems the expand prompt only shows up if you're logged in, so apologies to those who aren't logged in and hopefully you don't read the SPOILERS AHEAD.

Is that enough space to hide it? I guess I'll see. Okay, so, about the ending. The whole point is to work towards this 'prime timeline' where everything and everyone is okay. And like, yeah, that's a good thing. It SHOULD be the goal to make everything work out for everyone, that part I have no issues with. The part I don't like is how it absolutely obliterates one of the best parts of the game, which is the character development. You go back to the point where nothing has happened yet, and then the game ends and rushes into a romance over the span of a few minutes, that took a month's worth of in-game time to work itself out. Sure, the feelings were already there, but it's just so much... lesser this way.

I know that, in a game with branching paths like this, it's very common to have a canon route. But this just feels like the worst of both worlds. The non-canon routes are cheapened by the way the true ending is handled, and the true ending itself doesn't benefit from the development over the course of the game.

In my opinion, a better way to handle it would be to rework it all so that you're taken back to, say, day 20, or at least around there. To the point where most of the development happened, and from there you can give everyone a proper ending and epilogue. Alternatively, you can have the convergence point be after the vacation, though obviously you'd have to rework a TON, including a certain bit where you get the... Virgo medal? I think that's the one, at the very end. That way, every branch can have the possibility of existing in every timeline, but once you've been through them all, you get the prize at the end. I know the 'point' of the game is to settle on one timeline where the good thing happens, and that it'll happen that way now in future loops, but it just feels bad currently.

Outside of the character development, I just wonder why Dave is even doing this to start with. Why is it him? Why does him doing what he does in the 'prime timeline' matter at all for what the mastermind does? He doesn't even know the final password, and even if he knew it, it wouldn't have mattered. It's not the end of the world but it does feel a little awkward. (And I admit maybe I missed something that explains that but it just feels weird to me how that goes down.)

This post on reddit also echoes my same feelings about the way the true ending went down, with a little bit more spoilers.

I'll also add that I'm not in the discord and I haven't been following your news or anything really after this beta build, so I have no idea what you've changed or what you planned to do after this specific moment the game is in right now. I recognize that my bit above about a better way to handle it would be a massive undertaking at this point, and heck, maybe you simply disagree with my opinion. I'm sure other people do. I absolutely don't expect you to do anything extra, change anything, go about revising things just because I said I didn't like it. I just wanted to express how I felt about things. Short version: Character development, good. The way the ending handles that, not good.

Grizz1 year ago(+5)

I'll try to be efficient in how to explain this given you haven't been on the server or likely been exposed to anything still in the Patreon version:

1. Canonical means part of the story. That's it. Everything in the game is canonical because of how the time looping works. There's no way to really stress that in-game without exacerbating the already existing problems of my pre-edit script. While the story descend on a finality of a particular romance should not invalidate the others as it took those to get here.

2. Looping back to Day 20 doesn't work. Ignoring that we have a sequel where we need a locked in romance or at the very least lock out certain romances, we're dooming certain people to still die. Namely Roswell because of his illness. The medicine at this point doesn't work on him because of actions he takes on Day 4, so any intervention needs to happen before then.

3. As for why Dave, I have plans to fix that when I remove the Oswin interrogation segment in favor of explaining how quantum mechanics works a bit better. Namely the concept of observance which might help clarify why Dave at all, why Thanatos dying solves things, etc. My concern with this is ending up just like C/Ping a Wikipedia article and the delivery feels dry.
-- Also there were talks in the Discord last night again as to how to potentially integrate inputting the final password in Path P to round out the player experience but so far no one (myself included) hasn't come up with a way that makes sense where Dave would know the password.

I guess the thing that I should make clearer in-game is that the mansion is just a means to constrain the boundaries of the test rather than try and keep tabs on everyone over a town. It might be something I can throw into the revised Oswin section, but the idea is that once the experiment is over and Roswell is cured, we don't need the mansion holiday anymore.

GCMar1 year ago(+1)

1. It took the other romances to get there, sure, but then it's all erased for the final bit. No one else but Dave remembers it happening, which is the problem. Perhaps canon isn't the right word for the situation, but it has the same effect for everyone that isn't Dave. That's the central issue I have with it.

2. It wasn't a perfect suggestion, I was just throwing out potential alternatives. It's your story and your sequel to write, I was sure you already had plans for things. Saying the medicine doesn't work because of what Roswell does on day 4, sure, but... why? That kinda feels like a "just because" situation.

3. No comments on this bit, you have plans/desire to adjust things so that's good there.

As for the mansion, sure, I understand that. It's just a real bad feeling that, like that reddit comment said, all the character growth and relationship development just disappears once the experiment concludes. I don't think something like that could ever feel good to the reader. Your time investment doesn't matter except for saving Roswell, and even then both Roswell and Dave are mentally worse for the experience. (Besides the whole, Roswell being actually alive thing, which yeah is important). Sure, you can argue that it does still matter for you, personally, since it did happen for the reader but... I just don't know. I don't know what else to say at this point.

Grizz1 year ago(+1)

1. Which... would mean everyone should remember? In the current state not even Tyson remembers, this is about as even as we're going to get.

2. Because he goes and doses himself with something that warps his immune system which now makes the medicine a mismatch. I could write that in to be more explicit but I worry that a lot of solutions that equate to "just have someone explain it somewhere" is going to make the wordiness problem worse.

I wonder how much of this problem exists because public demo doesn't have access to the epilogues yet. Though it's hard to gauge just how well received those are too. It feels like I'm being disrespectful to adopt a "If the message of the game didn't resonate with you, there's nothing I can do" mentality; and I'm hesitant to stick to that as my defense.

Shy of a ZTD style ending where everyone remembers everything and comes out of it with a complete character arc into questioning why their affections haven't been reciprocated mess, I don't think there's any better solution I could've taken. Epilogues cover Dave trying to expedite the character arc healing process but he's Dave, so it doesn't go well.

GCMar1 year ago(+1)

1. I mean, ideally, it would all be written in a way where everything over the course of the game ends up mattering for that specific route, and then the ending is the ideal solution the experiment set out to do. That way you can pair Dave up with whoever you want, and everyone benefits from the character development and growth. There's no way to do it if you go back to a start that's both before anything happened and after everything has happened. And yeah, I understand that everything *does* matter, and you don't want the mansion vacation to happen if it doesn't need to happen. So, fixing Roswell means that no one has to go there in the future timelines/loops and so it's a problem that simply can't be reconciled with how the game is now. It would take heavy adjusting, probably far too involved at this point and with how long you've spent on it already, sooo... idk.

2. It still just feels like it's something that happens "just because" to block anyone from fixing him after the start. If Roswell knows about things and the potential for things then his actions don't make sense to me. And if he can learn from his actions in the same way, can't he just learn *not* to do that thing?

I can't really comment on the epilogues situation since, like I said, I haven't played any of them. Maybe it does make things better. Also, I'm not trying to be disrespectful in my responses either. I get this is picking at something you've spent a lot of time and effort on. You've worked it all out, you've already planned a sequel and have epilogues and all that stuff. You're gonna have people who think it's a genius move and you're gonna have people (like me) that just don't like it. I think it's fine, and I personally do love time loopy things. Zero Escape is in my top favorite game series. It's just a big sore point looking back on all the other routes and then the true ending being... what it is, and I know I keep pointing back to it but it's just the disappearance of the character development that really kills it for me.

Grizz1 year ago(+1)

Oh, you're being plenty respectful. I'm just trying to figure out if there's a way to potentially tweak something to make it better without just saying "Sorry, what you're after would take another year of development in rewrites to make it cohesive".

I think if this is the sort of thing you're looking for in an experience, then MAYBE the epilogues solve for this. I went in expecting that my way out of this narrative was to conclude things in a way similar to the game Time Hollow, which may or may not have been a smart move, but without introducing a whole slew of additional concepts (looking at you Uchikoshi) I'm suck wondering if there's a solution at all.

GCMar1 year ago

Yeah, unfortunately, it would just take far too much time to rework it when you already have something done. This is part of the reason I debated just not posting about it to begin with, but since Timbear said something similar (also sorry Timbear for hijacking your post ^^;) I decided to go ahead with it. I never really expected anything to come out of it, and I can't see any easy, quick solutions myself.

I've never played Time Hollow, so I can't say on that part. I will wait and see how the epilogues play out, though. I had an overall great time with your game, and wish you the best for the full release.

Timbear292 days ago (1 edit)

Actually did write a follow up where I gave more of my thoughts on tumblr but that post is spoilertastic so I'd rather not link it directly, instead i'll just relay the pertinent bit here (spoilers ahead yadda yadda yadda):
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In my review I said that the game's ultimate conclusion was one of its weaker points, but that's not an entirely accurate statement. This is a perfectly functional and satisfying ending for how it ties up the more general story: everybody lives and Dave finally gets to be happy, and things end on a hopeful note, the implication being that with his other lived experiences having crossed over, Dave is able to help his companions work through their problems. Consequently this means Dave is able to break through Tyson's shell right away and get him to admit his feelings. I could make the argument that this sort of cheapens Tyson's character development, but not enough for it to seriously bother me. Realistically if the game absolutely had to settle on one single romance by the end, Tyson makes the most sense given his history with Dave, and while he isn't my favorite, he's far and away Password's most popular character so I imagine this'll sit well with most people. That bad boy bogan charm is pretty hard to resist. Initially I assumed the game went with this because it was simply trying to cater to fans but that's actually not the case-a little bird told me that it was part of the plan from the start. My problem here is that forcing the player to settle in to a fixed romance at the end undercuts a big part of the appeal for me and I imagine a fair few other people as well-what was the point of having all those romantic options if they were just going to get handwaved away at the end? If Password was a more linear or kinetic affair from the start that only had one set romance, or if the true ending was left vague enough that the reader could reasonably imagine Dave hooking up with any one of his potential suitors at the end then this might have worked. It's definitely a thing that sticks out to me, especially in a game like this that's otherwise pretty well constructed.

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