Post by EpochGames in "Steamboat Willie" for Mushroom Kingdom Fusion?

Viewing post in "Steamboat Willie" for Mushroom Kingdom Fusion?

Hi, I'm a Junior Dev on the Project:

No new playable character suggestions. In fact, please do not request for anymore. They require a lot of work and the Fusion Team wants to focus on getting the game to v1.0 status. That being said: Mickey was playable in an ancient version of MKF.
Even if new playable characters were planned, the philosophy behind Modern MKF is to focus on Franchises that originate in Video Games, not so much Cartoons, Movies, Shows, Comics, etc.
Even if Non-Video Game Characters were planned for MKF: this is a Free Fan Game that includes references to probably a couple hundred different franchises ... without permission. Mickey going into the public domain doesn't change anything for MKF.
There's already several Disney Game References in MKF. What about Point #2? The overt Disney aspects of the Disney Levels have largely been removed.

I understand. At the very least, perhaps he could be considered as a possible back-up plan in case Nintendo decides to flex it's muscles once again?. A legal version of MKF only containing popular public domain characters and scenarios would be interesting, so far as the MKF team would be willing to continue on afterwards. It would be a way of ensuring that the team's work won't ever go to waste, and it would open the door to monetisation as well.

I could see Steamboat Mickey and Minnie taking over for Mario and Luigi, Steamboat Pete could be Wario, and the various worlds could be transformed (via palette swaps) into something else. Just on the top of my head, the Hell world could use Freedoom assets instead of Doom ones. Many sprites and backgrounds would have to be edited here and there to make them legally distinct of course, but if the project were to reach the 1.0 stage a lot of the stuff would have already been made, so the bulk of the work would already be done. The game could ultimately take the form of a pastiche of retro gaming and entertainment, rather than explicitly featuring such characters and scenarios. These are just my two cents, of course.

EpochGames329 days ago (4 edits) (+1)

I've been part of a project that received a C&D (LOTR Mod that got C&D'd by Warner Bros). Warner Bros had many demands if they wanted to allow us to continue (change all names to non-copyright, change our Open World Map so it wasn't so close to Middle Earth, change the name of our mod altogether ... and they had to approve all of it; would have been a nightmare, so we simply canceled the project).

Nintendo, from their C&Ds I've witnessed online (admittedly no experience communicating with their legal department), seem even less reasonable then WB Games. From what I've read: they want projects to cease altogether and have no interest in working with fans at all. This project carries the name "Mushroom Kingdom" in it. There's an entire world based on the Mushroom Kingdom and the Mario Franchises, and Mario Levels and Enemies persist throughout the other Worlds as well. You can't just "palette swap" the playable characters, you have to "palette swap" World Maps, Levels, Enemies, change out sound effects, change the name of the project ...

Let's say the Fusion Team received a C&D and the Fusion Team decides to follow with this crazy idea: "Mickey Mouse Kingdom Fusion". How much work needs doing?

Mario, Luigi, Classic Mario, Classic Luigi, Wario and Waluigi all need resprited and sound effects changed. A lot of work, but perhaps possible.
"World 1: Mushroom Kingdom" needs re-sprited to become "Steamboat Willy Kingdom". Keep in mind the current Mario Sprites used come from official Nintendo Titles (not like the Fusion Team has been creating all its graphics from scratches). Does there exist Steamboat Willy Sprites in the exact dimensions of 8-bit and 16-bit Mario Titles? The answer is no. Even if they did: that's only ... 44 Levels of Tilesets that need new sprite tiles. Even if all the Levels used the exact same Tileset, that's, basically, more work then creating all the sprite work for Super Mario World.
All the Mario Enemies need new sprites (and new sound effects). That's, only, +100 Enemies. So basically 1/10 of the +1,000 Enemy Count in MKF. That's, probably, 5x the number of enemy sprites in Super Mario World.
What about all the Mario Game Music used? That's roughly several dozen tracks that need replacing.
Wait, Nintendo owns other franchises BESIDES Mario and could C&D for the other game franchises used in MKF? They could sue for the usage of the Zelda, Metroid, Pokemon, Kirby, Punch Out, Smash, and probably a dozen or more other franchises that are referenced in the form of Levels, Enemies, Music and even Worlds!? In fact, I'd say half of franchises referenced in MKF are from Nintendo. Now let's multiply all the previous work by, roughly, 5.

You're, effectively, asking for the Fusion Team's "C&D Backup Plan" to be redoing the majority of Worlds, Levels, Enemies, Music and Sound Effects to a 1920's Steamboat Willy for a project that's been in (and out) of development for 17 years! Does that seem so easy to you!? That's not even touching your other "suggestions" for retheming over Worlds outside of Nintendo.

Sorry if I seem a little aggravated: Replacing graphics is not just something that takes a couple clicks. That's YEARS of work for even a professional paid development team. No, you want to know what the options are for a project this size? I know this from experience from working on a fan project based on an IP: there's only 2 realistic options.

Cease development. The modding team I was on tried fighting WB Games. They even got a Pro-Bono Lawyer offering to help us. WB did offer us a deal when we came to the table with a lawyer, but (as I mentioned at the start) it would have required complete oversight and us redoing huge swaths of the mod. Nintendo is even bigger then WB Games: the biggest Game Developer on the Planet. Even if the Fusion Team could find a Pro-Bono Lawyer offering their services, you're talking a Legal Battle that could take YEARS! And, likely, end up costing in the Millions to realistically fight. And if the case got that big ... other Game Companies represented in MKF would likely come a-knocking.
Ignore the C&D and continue development. Pray Nintendo doesn't follow through with the C&D. The ultimate question then becomes: is Nintendo willing to follow through on a C&D? A C&D is not a legal injunction: it's a warning. Would cost them some time and money to follow through with, and (potentially) a reputation loss that could hurt them financially. Personally, Nintendo seems happy throwing around C&Ds and I do think they would be willing to sharpen those legal fangs.

What happens if the Team chose 2? I don't know where the other Team Members are in the World, but different countries have different laws about IP. Countries not allied to Japan or America are going to be harder to extradite for. If a Team Member is in, say, China: that Team Member is likely safe. China rarely gets involved in Copyright Laws of International Companies: that's why so many knock-offs persist there. If you're in America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand or an EU Country (I'm imaging the grand majority of the Team lives in): you're a target by Nintendo to be sued.

Me? I'm in one of those countries. Certainly not putting my own personal life at stake for a fan project, and I doubt most on the Fusion Team are willing to either. Sorry, but your 2 cents are not going far in this discussion I've had with many people over the Internet (about C&Ds of fanworks).

Best we can hope for: MKF is never threatened a C&D before v1.0. What happens in v1.0? Source Code is planned to be released. Say MKF is given a C&D after Source Code is released, what then? I can tell you what can happen: lots of projects by other Teams outside the Fusion Team can come into existence and Nintendo is going to have a rough time C&Ding those other projects. That's the power of the Internet: the power in many.

CaptainMuskrat329 days ago

I understand what you're saying. In this hypothetical scenario, a lot of the playable characters would need to be cut out entirely, and focus would need to be shifted back to characters that would play like the standard Mario Bros (in this case, Steamboat Mickey and Minnie) . Enemies would indeed have to be altered as well, notably any goombas, koopas, boos, bob-ombs and anything else that's directly affiliated with Nintendo. However, they can still remain the same so far as they can still be "angry mushrooms" and "turtles". They just need their notable features changed enough as to where they are no longer "goombas" and "koopas". This can be as simple as giving the goombas a different face with different colored shoes, the koopas could have their shells turned into metallic armor, and the boos could be turned into any average cartoon ghost.

In terms of environments, World 1 could just be renamed to "Mushroom Land", and be modified just slightly so that it's not recognisable as coming directly from Nintendo. They certainly don't own the idea of a kingdom with giant mushrooms, right?. Just as they don't own the idea of a colorful desert, iceworld, etc. There is more flexibility here than you realise. Not much would have to be changed to avoid legal issues. Some of the other worlds may need more or less tinkering, to be sure.

Hunting for replacement music could be challenging, but I think it can be done given some time. I could even look for some, if such a task was undertaken. For sprites, I think commissioning a sprite artist for custom assets would be necessary for sure, and that is something else I may be willing to do also. To my recollection, there aren't many useable sprites for the Steamboat characters which is fair enough. I know you're probably thinking "what's the point?", but I feel there is an opportunity to make MKF legally distinct and allow for the team to monetise what they've made, whether by accepting patreon donations or even making this an original game that can be sold on a platform like Steam or Itch.io. Or even just to continue offering the game without fear of any kind. At this point, you're only benefiting a company that could strike you down at any moment. As enthusiastic as we are about the Nintendo brand and it's characters, they've only proven time and again that they will not tolerate even the slightest bit of fan-made media.

TaXMaNiA329 days ago

Thank you for your concern but I think we're willing to take the risk of finishing MKF in its intended form. Reskinning a single playable character (power-ups and all) is already an enormous task. Reskinning everything Nintendo related is downright unrealistic unless a lot of time and money was involved (neither of which we have). Regardless, we don't have any interest in swapping out everything owned by the Big N.

MKF will never be monetized in any shape or form. It's a passion project made by fans for fans. Setting up a patreon page is a sure-fire way to get C&D'd.

The Big N has much bigger targets to shoot down like Super Smash Flash 2 and Super Smash Bros Crusade. Both of these have been around for years and no action was taken against them. In the extremely off chance that we do get C&D'd, well, I'll take that over completely altering the game's identity.

DomanDragon298 days ago

"They will not tolerate even the slightest bit of fanmade media"

Okay, but what about the 99% of fangames that haven't gotten takedowns? Super Mario Bros. X, Super Mario 63, Super Smash Bros. Crusade, Super Mario Flashback, Dream Crafter, Heaven Studio, and all that, for example? Plus, someone from a popular Mario fangame site has said that it's only a small percentage of fangames that get taken down, and usually it's because Nintendo's working on a similar idea.

Trust me, I think MKF is safe, unless Nintendo's planning to put Sonic, Mega Man, Samus, etc. in their next mainline Mario platformer.

itch.io

Viewing post in "Steamboat Willie" for Mushroom Kingdom Fusion?