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Your Only Move Is HUSTLE (Open Beta Version)

An online, turn-based fighting game and superpowered fight scene simulator. · By ivysly

Cowboy's Mild Dysfunctional-ness (Relative to the two other Characters.)

A topic by Thomased22 created Dec 01, 2022 Views: 2,921 Replies: 17
Viewing posts 1 to 6
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(Edit: fixed some errors in the text. Also important disclaimer. This original post is talking about cowboy during the 3.0 update. But this all also applies to cowboy in every version until his nerfs in 3.4. Though, mainly pre 3.0 obviously lol.)

Alright, I feel this topic is well worth escalating into a thread. 

I will disclaim, no shade is intended to be thrown here.

First and foremost, I shall set the record straight and identify myself. I am a ninja main, I mainly play with my friend, a cowboy main. But I do play games with randos every once in a while when I'm not busy with school. I've to this day not played against another ninja, and beaten all but one of the cowboys I've fought. Wizards are about 50/50. 

I must say, the state cowboy is in, is honestly depressingly poor. And has totally killed my friend's will to play this game, that he once was very exited for. He was the one to introduce me to the game, if you couldn't discern that. 

My friend is a loyal cowboy main, and I'm here to make the case that the current state of cowboy is the main cause of his hiatus from the game. 

I'll be pulling a lot of points from a comment I made on a patch notes thread, those will be italicized so you'll know which is from that and which I wrote up now for this specifically. This'll just make my life easier lmao.

First and foremost, I win about 5 or 6 to 1 against my friend. And I've lost to one random cowboy in total before the 3.0 update, and haven't come close to losing to one since the update. The matchup was way closer before 3.0, because ninja did not have the teleport he does now. And frankly, he kinda needed it. Ninja didn't have any special actionable movement option unlike the other two characters. So it could get rough at times for Ninja. 

Why do I feel this is the why it is the way it is?

Ninja isn't particularly untamed, nothing he has or can do seems outright goofy compared to the other characters. So not Ninja.

I think it's because Cowboy, while easy and forgiving, is not as effective as the others, when played the way most people play him.

Let me tell you what separates every other cowboy from the single random one that beat me. Your average cowboy is basically trying to start and/or end every interaction in range of lighting strikes, his most oppressive, boring, and spammable move.  He can chain it into itself up to like 10 times before needing to teleport even after the increased knockback on repeated moves change. And can also teleport obviously to chain it again, and obviously if the cowboy is smart he'll keep himself out of range of Burst's hitbox. Your only choice is to DI up and eat the damage. This is easy to do when playing as cowboy, and pretty effective damage wise, you don't have to spend meter on it at any point, and obviously it has good range.

It's easily the most miserable thing to witness in the entire game. You can predict it and bait it and whatnot but inevitably when you are hit, there is no counterplay, you are making no choices, you just have to hit the funny button a dozen and a half times, and maybe adjust your DI. 

Lightning strikes in tandem with other spammable moves, which, in a universe without lightning strikes would otherwise be perfectly fine, make Cowboy's combos a shell of what they should be and leave half of his kit in the dust. Untouched by god or man. It's really quite sad.

What did that good cowboy player do that the others did not? Well, he didn't use lightning strike at all, if I remember correctly. He'd do air chains with teleport and the various sword swipes, into the lasso command grab. Which does amazing damage. But, it takes more effort than lightning strike spam. That's the only cowboy I've seen up to this point who used that move and other's well besides the half a dozen most people just do mindlessly with noticeable levels of tact and skill. Now of course not everyone is gonna know better to use Cowboy's extra ground combo tools, launchers, and air game shenanigans right off the bat. But the big funny looking attack that's relatively safe to throw out? No duh, at first glance, why wouldn't you use it? It stands out against the rest, as Cowboy's most versatile move.

This move confounds me in the current state it is in. What role is it intended to play? Whatever that may be, it's also working double time to fill multiple other roles! Who's raised the damn thing's rent! It's clearly struggling to pay!

Jokes aside, It's really fast, but it has really good range, that outclasses many of his otherwise good long range moves automatically. Because they aren't quite as fast. Yes it requires spacing but Cowboy is the character with the most versatile movement tool in the game, teleport. So, that's not as big a deal as it otherwise would be. It also chains into itself, way more than any punch or kick or even cowboy's other basic sword swipes do in the game... In what world does that make sense? It chains into itself for about half health if not more every single time. It's kind of absurd. And not fun to watch live, or in the replay, the animation doesn't inspire much either. Especially compared to what cowboy can do, I think his combos have the potential to be the coolest looking in the game. And that's saying something because Ninja is pretty goofy with it in that regard. Based off the animation of lightning strikes, you'd think that it'd be some sort of high knockback combo ender or something. But no. And if in 3.0 Cowboy's super chainable upwards slash was nerfed into being much less chainable, why wasn't this? It's the same thing functionally, just horizontally instead of vertically! It's only weakness is calling it out with a dodge or something to avoid the hit. it's not very safe on whiff if you breach it's wall so to speak. But that won't come up all too often in my experience.

I picked up cowboy once against my friend to prove a point for fun, the results are as follows: 

I played him once and totally swamped my friend, cowboy can be played really cool and do really cool combos, but you don't have to do that at all. Which isn't very fair compared to the other two where you need planning, you need to do setup, you need to use most if not all of the stuff in your kit, and etc. Cowboy has potential to be incredibly cool but his current role as the easy baby mode character is honestly kind of sabotaging that. Because the only time I've seen people use anything outside of the same single digit set of moves that chain into themselves over and over again is when I picked up the character for the first time to obliterate my friend, while going for style over substance. After which my friend actually started incorporating more of cowboy's kit occasionally. But after punishing him for going for that sorta stuff because it's not as good as spamming his spammable moves, he quit doing that. That's totally limited my friend's ability to get creative with combos, and is progressively making him worse at the game and not better. That's not my or his fault. The character is just in a totally malfunctional state right now.  If you ask me, as an aspiring game designer, I'd rather see this character's potential realized then keep them stuck in a role it doesn't fit in well.

If you watched post launch interviews and whatnot, you'd know that cowboy is the least finished character in the game currently, even by the admission of our beloved developer.  And this was very clear to me, especially before 3.0, obviously a crazy outlier move like lightning strikes being the way it is, among a couple other accomplice moves, and then everything else being super undertuned should make that clear. But that's a cripplingly bad problem for what's supposed to be our token "beginner friendly" character. This is super problematic, as laid out by me from the past: 

To get a half health combo or more with cowboy? Hit an attack on the ground, teleport wherever you need to be, hit the buttons you wanna hit over and over until you need to teleport again or whatever, until your opponent inevitably bursts or DI's into the air. If the former, so long as you weren't hit which is likely if the enemy isn't wise, (which is likely given the average range of cowboy's sword attacks) your disjoints and instant burst movement should get you in perfect position to punish. If the latter you gotta use and eventually run out of air actions, at which point your combo might be over. But even so by the end of the air combo you'll still have netted a fair bit of damage, even outside of the previous half of the combo on the ground. That's a huge discrepancy. [Relative to the effort required for a similar reward when playing either of the two other characters.]

And because of just how much easier it is to do lame combos, nobody really combos with cowboy the way he's clearly intended to do combos. My friend says his kit feels bloated, I theorize this is because he feels half of it doesn't need to be there for cowboy to play the way most people play him now. I can even tell that he's starting to have less fun. Especially now that Ninja actually has a teleport and a new evasion move. Despite all the damage buffs, and Ninja's substantial nerfs, my friend is losing worse than ever, and when he does get a hit? He's not encouraged to be methodical or thoughtful like I'm forced to be, he's just hitting the buttons, and going through the motions. The character's just not in a healthy state. He needs a slight rework, because in many aspects he needs some minor buffs, but he also needs the chain combo spam crippled.

Basically, if it wasn't clear, I believe the character is teaching players bad habits, this is bad because the average player will do what they think is necessary to win. And if in practice they feel they get more results at first from spamming something like lightning strikes than implementing other combo tools and using things tactically and with foresight, which is clearly the intended way to play the game in general, the more time passes, the less likely they will be able to cope, when inevitably this must all be fixed. 

The state cowboy is in now is honestly kind of sabotaging the game in a way. It's a great disservice to the average cowboy player that such a character with such design pitfalls that clearly isn't finished made it into the game. This needs solving, and relatively soon. Or we risk bleeding the more casual chunk of the cowboy playerbase when he is finally changed in a big way.  And obviously, given the nature of the character as our beginner friendly character, we cannot afford to take such a hit. But, I wouldn't rush it, lest we risk creating something even worse. This needs to be handled with care as all game design conundrums should.

I'm sure this will be received negatively by many, but it's something I think needs to be said in the unfortunate event that the community or the developer aren't particularly aware of it. Though, I have faith that the latter is aware, as stated earlier I've complained about it before. But in the wake of no response from other players or the developer, I felt it necessary to speak out.  Better sooner rather than later.

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Darn, a couple misplaced apostrophes and a weird little bit from an earlier draft I forgot to delete halfway through is still there. I wrote this at 1 in the morning and I don't see an edit button lmao. Please excuse my slight errors lol. 

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Great Thread, as a ninja main myself i can completely see where you are coming from. 

I have also only played two good cowboys so far while the rest got roundstart lightning strike parried and never really thought a move ahead. With Ninja you have to vary your combos and go for different routes depending on DI while cowboy has his "I combo now" teleport, which is nice but also doesnt encourage exploring your whole moveset and looking into what moves combo naturally into each other. While ninja also doesnt want to be in the air forever i feel like cowboy has an even harder time with air combos as his 3 slash specials are especially weak to DI and can easily end your combo.

The main thing i feel hinders cowboys though(which incidentally makes him the worst beginner character IMO) is that you need to be really good at the Yomi part of Yomi Hustle. Cowboy doesnt get really fast moves except his gun, pommel and lightning strike so he has trouble getting in(especially vs ninja). He needs to have read what i will do and make his choices in a way that doesnt let me whiff cancel out of them easily.
While teleport is a great combo tool both wizard and ninja can deny viable teleport space with their projectiles so it gets easier to read the teleport and punish it. Lightning strike is the only real tool cowboy has at range to get in as it is quick and it is a decent threat because of its fairly wide hitbox. Cowboy otherwise doesnt have a lot of tools to either keep pesky rushdown ninjas off of himself or get a hit in on those evasive wizards.
His 1000 Cuts can fill that role as it negates projectiles and makes his teleport a combo starter, but it costs 3 Bars and only one cowboy really saw how annoying that is. The other characters get some really good options from 1 level of super meter but cowboy only really has 1000 cuts because instant cancelling is just not necessary when you have teleport.

One great cowboy did his big lunge attack at a fair distance away so i thought it was safe to throw out a shuriken only for the cowboy to whiff cancel and be in perfect lightning strike range. While still using lightning strike i feel like this embodies what i mean about cowboy needing to be good at the Yomi part. Without hard reads or spending burst bar when they have more whiff cancels than me cowboy has a lot of trouble to get in on people. When they do they have their easy lightning strike times X -> teleport -> pommel -> lightning strike again combo which is not really all that fun to watch either. i love getting combod by wizards or other ninjas as the setup and flow feels really fun(and funny sometimes with all the wizard projectiles bouncing me around lol)

Cowboy needs *something* to threaten space better at longer ranges or he will always be on the defensive in a neutral environment. Cowboys best position atm is the default roundstart because its in lightning strike range, but afterwards they have to work real hard to get in.

Glad to know I'm not alone. And yes while it might not seem like it, I also feel that cowboy needs some sort of improvement to his kit, besides simple damage buffs. But, alongside those theoretical buffs, obviously lightning strike and prolly a couple other moves need drastic retoolings. They do not function in a logical or fun manner.

It's also good to know that I'm not the only ninja main in the world! Lmao.

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As a person who is very new to yomi, i just experienced this. I played a match not more than 5 mins ago against a ninja and let me tell you, I could not hit the ninja even once. Mostly because of the long range - ish moves he had. I only got a couple of hits and 2 lassos but in the end, it was all futile bruh. Love the game still tho

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The hotfix just kneecapped the gun feint, so that's one less option to get in. Great!

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I've been playing the game since the first release and always have thought of cowboy as the best character in the game. I haven't played as much since 0.2.4 and I haven't played newest update at all yet, so the things I'm about to talk about might have changed substantially, but I feel like most of it still applies. I play ninja and cowboy both about 45% of the time; I only go wizard that 10% of the time when I stomp someone the first round. I go under the alias Yung Baller in public lobbies, and out of the 40~ or so games I have publicly played (guessing based off of replays), I think I might have lost 3 times, and even then I won the best of 3 two of those times. I also do bouts with friends and also rarely lose. I've come across very few cowboy players (maybe like 2) who spam lightning slash, and I have tried to play a game where I relied on it once and I won but it was boring. I think the problem is as you said, the players you are running across are not creative. Cowboy has one of the most diverse mix-up options in the game, mainly because of teleport, which immediately extends his combo starting and combo continuation potential. I haven't been seeing as many people do this, but as opposed to doing the slam out of the lasso, I prefer to throw out of it to extend combos. I feel like that after the blocking update, projectiles got a very strong but indirect buff, and that also applies to cowboys gun. If you get hit by one of cowboys stray bullets, it can easily take you down 1/3 of your health bar if they choose to expend all 6 bullets, but when I play I tend to hang onto 1-2 in hopes that it will be a tool to help me finish the game out. Gun takes you right back to neutral.  Gun is not very good for combos (other than ending them, however I see this as a waste), but it does combo into itself. It's also very good for mindgames near the end of a close match, I've snaked a couple wins by making people commit to a parry while I pull out the gun only to then holster and hit them with something else. You can bait in neutral and make it very hard to tell when you will shoot, which in turn makes your opponent lose resources VIA move cancelling or potential frame advantage from neutral. You can do the same thing with teleport. I've won matches where the opponent tries to read a teleport and I punish them for it. 1000 cuts is also a very busted super, and is probably the #1 thing to spend meter on as cowboy, as the person above mentioned. Cowboy will struggle to win neutral if you can't read or are not creative, but I think that his payout is arguably better. You don't have to plan as much as wizard or ninja for a higher payout, his kit is more about reads and spacing with teleport rather than planning. I think that casuals will struggle with cowboy in this game more than either of the other two characters. I do not think that the problem you bring up lays within the character himself as much as it is the people who are playing the character.

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"It's also very good for mindgames near the end of a close match, I've snaked a couple wins by making people commit to a parry while I pull out the gun only to then holster and hit them with something else."

Yeah, that was one of my favourite things about cowboy in 0.3.0 - the mindgames of the feint, allowing you to teleport in and pommel if you were close enough and managed to trick your opponent into blocking.

As of 0.3.4, holstering now takes 4f longer, making this impossible and killing one of the cowboy's last real approach options.

Cowboy does really, really good damage. Even before the damage buff he was still the easiest character to get really good damage off of one combo with. 

I think about half of the cowboys I've fought spammed lightning strikes. And then half of the ones who didn't were notably clever. Before 3.0 I'd say that the matchup was cowboy sided when fighting him as ninja, but with ninja's new teleport and cowboy's nerfs, he's doing worse than ever. 

I think the main thing that makes ninja harder than cowboy is air game shenanigans. It's harder to do precise double jumps and air dashes to be in just the right position to hit the stuff you wanna hit. A good combo takes lots of planning and foresight. I think cowboy gets off on those regards way easier than Ninja. Because his teleport makes this sorta stuff really forgiving. For better or for worse. 

Cowboy may have the most variety in terms of functionality among his moves but most of it isn't very good in practice. Though his alternative shenanigans did get buffs in 3.3. 

Speak of the devil, time to go look at 3.4, I worry... I haven't heard much good of it. 

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3.4 patchnotes be like:

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In practice the nerf really only cut the reps you can do before needing to teleport in half. The rest of the problems with the move still remains but it's infinitely more tolerable. I'm willing to ride it out as is until more changes to the character are made. 

The other nerfs to cowboy aren't that cripplingly bad but the gun bait nerf is still very harsh and uncalled for. 

New tweet looks cool / promising , seems like we will be able to use bullets as more of a combo tool now
https://twitter.com/ivy_sly_/status/1598847829090656256

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I agree that cowboy should have his moveset (and really playstyle as a whole) significantly changed.  While he is supposed to be the sword fighter with disjoints and "high risk high reward" attacks, this isn't the case at all.  Teleport lets him start a combo off of practically anything that isn't quickdraw, and lets him effectively make every combo burst safe with the right spacing. Cowboy's combo game is however extremely boring, making it not feel satisfying to land hits. Lightning slash being able to loop into itself repeatedly (which was FAR worse before the knockback decay update) just makes cowboys rely on this move far too much. In my opinion, cowboy should be more of a "Marth" styled character. Fast, long range, good punishes, and using disjoints to play keepaway with the opponent, instead of just using Lslash whenever they get into range without any more thought involved.

You're speaking my language. Lmao.

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I'm going to be honest if people are getting away with spamming lslice every time you're in it's very specific range you're doing something very wrong. I haven't been running into many if any cowboys just mindlessly using lslice but if most people are actually just letting them get away with it I can see why they would get into that habit.

Also lslice loops suck ass if you actually use DI.

It's very easy to punish things with lightning slice mind you. And it's really fast, so if you throw something out at that range, and they threw out lightning slice, you lose.

Defensive options are really risky too, block can be baited at lightning strike range and same with dodge rolling. If you guess right on a dodge roll you get good reward but if you guess wrong you eat shit and die. In fairness there's nothing wrong with that by itself but, yanno, it's lightning slice.

It's also really not hard to combo into it out of something like pommel.

And I find personally that horizontal DI doesn't do much to help. Upwards DI doesn't feel like it helps enough but it does eventually help. Upwards DI is the only thing keeping this from being a safe infinite mind you. As if forcing the cowboy to continue the combo in the air wasn't an option, you could just teleport and chain the move over and over. 

The move isn't bad at all, not even a little. And if the cowboy player you are fighting would rather win than have fun, they'll go for it every chance they get or bait you with the threat of it. And you can't really do anything about it except guess and pretend it's a "callout" lmfao. Jokes aside you will eventually get hit. There is no fool proof way to beat the move. It becomes a "should I block in the event this isn't bait and probably not die? or should I roll in and pray that it's not bait so I can get the punish?" And that's not a particularly fun guessing game. 

Any one of these traits on their own wouldn't be criminal, but when all together, it creates the biggest crutch in the whole game. The way it is even after all the direct and indirect nerfs is not ok relative to everything else in the game. 

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I mean the obvious solution to that first problem is that you shouldn't be throwing out unsafe options when you're standing at exactly the right range for lslice to hit you. The area that lslice threatens isn't actually that large, and if you're standing within the very small portion of that area where it can hit on the first active frame, literally just dashing forward will keep you from getting hit.

Also it seems weird to complain about this but not mana strike, considering mana strike can pose exactly that same threat, but Wizard can also move it across an entire range of distances and it's actually faster than lslice (try pitting them against each other in single player)

Yes, if you're standing at one extremely specific range in neutral, lslice is a strong threat. You can also just not stand in that extremely specific spot. And in that spot, none of his other moves are a threat.

If you're pointing DI away from the cowboy, the lslice loop should be broken after like the second or third hit. They can teleport after you, but if they try to keep using lslice they will very quickly get to the point where you can just DI up or away out of range. Also teleport uses an air option so cowboy can in fact not just keep teleporting and chaining mid-air forever.

Yes, lslice is a solid move that fills a niche in Cowboy's moveset. But to be honest you are making it out to be a way stronger option that it actually is. A good cowboy player is not going to be using it "every chance that they get" or even relying the threat of it in most circumstances. It comes out fast, but again it has a very specific range where it can hit someone even if they try to move and before they get to take a turn if they hold, and even then both the Wizard and Ninja have effective ways to avoid it safely.

Like Ninja for instance can just backsway at that range and unless the Cowboy just straight up hard reads the backsway specifically and commits to a move that will lose to most of Ninja's other options, they can't really punish it, while being hugely minus if they actually try to lslice. And of course Wizard can just mana strike, and that's assuming that their setups aren't protecting them to begin with (same case for Ninja actually).

lslice is just simply not an even remotely good enough move to carry a bad player unless their opponent is also a bad player that isn't even considering that the move exists. Lslice looping is also frankly just bad if the opponent DIs correctly, it quickly builds up a lot of knockback and does pretty sub-optimal damage.

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I mean the obvious solution to that first problem is that you shouldn't be throwing out unsafe options when you're standing at exactly the right range for lslice to hit you. The area that lslice threatens isn't actually that large, and if you're standing within the very small portion of that area where it can hit on the first active frame, literally just dashing forward will keep you from getting hit.

This misses the point I was making. If you attempt to block, dodge, dash, or out maneuver lightning slice, you are at serious risk of being either punish comboed back into it anyways or being set up for something like mid screen lasso which just got buffed massively. The threat of the move is still pretty menacing, so you can't risk not taking some sort of evasive maneuver. But if the cowboy player has a brain, they'll either do something just as bad to you in response or worse if they believe you'll take evasive maneuvers. Now, this used to be worse back before the move got additional recovery. And isn't as big a deal now, but since Cowboy doesn't really use either of his meters for much, he can often whiff cancel on reaction to a block. Which, is honestly at least conceptually perfectly fine. Way better than him just being able to do whatever after a block for free.

 Also it seems weird to complain about this but not mana strike, considering mana strike can pose exactly that same threat, but Wizard can also move it across an entire range of distances and it's actually faster than lslice (try pitting them against each other in single player)

Few things to note here. For one, I don't see people using mana strike that often tbh. Secondly, it can't be chained nearly as much. DI has way more of an effect on mana strike. Especially because it's mostly used on airborne opponents for a little bit of air chaining. I find that DI is much more effective in air combo situations. Thirdly, mana strike is usually just a means to an end, a hit for the sake of setting up something else. Rather than it just being chained a billion times. Not that it can or ever could be chained like that. Hence why I ain't got anything against it. This makes it like, infinitely less annoying. Mana strike is proof that lightning slice isn't inherently dumb. But it's misplaced being the way it is on cowboy's kit. Wizard also has a harder time giving you trouble for blocking it. And doesn't have much in terms of means to punish rolls so long as you aren't rolling into point blank range. Which, makes it a bit harder to punish than Cowboy theoretically I will admit. Since if the cowboy is silly enough to actually go through with the lightning slice while you are on the ground and you read it well with a roll, you usually get a punish. Not so much with Wizard. But besides that, mana strike is way less annoying than lightning slice.


Yes, if you're standing at one extremely specific range in neutral, lslice is a strong threat. You can also just not stand in that extremely specific spot. And in that spot, none of his other moves are a threat.

Lasso, gun, teleport with or without 1000 cuts is scary at that range, and unexpected forward dashes into something like thrust can put you in a dangerous situation.  I'd argue not only is lightning slice dangerous for the sake of lightning slice I'd say it's just very slightly outside of the range cowboy would optimally want you to be in. If you get hit by the inner most side of the hitbox, a cowboy player can often teleport behind or in front of you and start an actual combo using other moves. Which, frankly, I'm ok with. If there was a way to make it so that's how the move was used and further crippled it's use in chains, I'd totally take it. That'd actually be cool and fun while still keeping the mid screen threat to society aspect of the move. 

If you're pointing DI away from the cowboy, the lslice loop should be broken after like the second or third hit. They can teleport after you, but if they try to keep using lslice they will very quickly get to the point where you can just DI up or away out of range. Also teleport uses an air option so cowboy can in fact not just keep teleporting and chaining mid-air forever.

I never claimed that cowboy could chain it forever, and in fact I've noted multiple times that DI is the only way to escape, because you aren't in range for a burst hit. But I must restate this very important fact you have chosen to omit. Horizontal DI against this move may as well do nothing. Go ahead, try chaining it in training mode and have the other character do a straight backwards DI. It does all but nothing. You pretty much need to do straight up DI to get into the air, and then you can do diagonal up DI. But by the time that happens, the cowboy will be able to chain you no less than 4 times, if not 5 or 6 times. Before having to start another chain in the air. It used to be much more painful in fairness. Before 3.4 it was more like 8 reps per chain. That was a nightmare. It's better now, but I still hope to see the move reworked alongside buffing cowboy's other, actually fun and cool stuff. 

Yes, lslice is a solid move that fills a niche in Cowboy's moveset. But to be honest you are making it out to be a way stronger option that it actually is. A good cowboy player is not going to be using it "every chance that they get" or even relying the threat of it in most circumstances. It comes out fast, but again it has a very specific range where it can hit someone even if they try to move and before they get to take a turn if they hold, and even then both the Wizard and Ninja have effective ways to avoid it safely.

Like Ninja for instance can just backsway at that range and unless the Cowboy just straight up hard reads the backsway specifically and commits to a move that will lose to most of Ninja's other options, they can't really punish it, while being hugely minus if they actually try to lslice. And of course Wizard can just mana strike, and that's assuming that their setups aren't protecting them to begin with (same case for Ninja actually).

lslice is just simply not an even remotely good enough move to carry a bad player unless their opponent is also a bad player that isn't even considering that the move exists. Lslice looping is also frankly just bad if the opponent DIs correctly, it quickly builds up a lot of knockback and does pretty sub-optimal damage.

Outside of the DI situation being misleading at best, this is fair. I'll give you the fact that the move is much, much, much less miserable to deal with now. It's been getting better nearly every update. But you must note, most of my statements were made back when the move was frankly completely bonkers. You seem to have a pension for omitting key context like this in your statements. For one I never said lightning slice ever carried bad players. I've lost to two cowboys ever, one wasn't using it, and the other was after the 3.4 update when the move got nurtured. What I suggested came to pass, and it's made the situation, at the very least mildly better. Lightning slice got slapped into submission, and other stuff was made more usable. Remaining cowboy players are actually making decent use of more of his kit now. This is good! (But it's returned cowboy to being pretty underpowered. More stuff could use buffs I imagine) Lightning strike at this point is really at it's best as a sort of looming threat that gives me and other players PTSD, bating us into rolling. Which, meh. I think the play these days is a backroll or jump over the hitbox if you have the advantage to do so. Like I said it's better now. It used to be better than mana strike, but now it's just about a bit worse in a vacuum. And in the grand scheme of things though it really doesn't have that much of a use on cowboy now that it's not his main grounded combo rout. So it's not much better in that regard now is it. So yes, lightning strike is in a much better state. But mana strike does not and never has made me want to dropkick a small dog. I cannot say the same for lightning strike.

In conclusion I'd say it's reign of terror is over. But of course, it remains annoying as per it's nature. Or perhaps I've just been psychologically primed to go hollow whenever I see it lmao.