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(+3)

Hello. I feel very conflicted about the description on your game page. I try to stay constructive when I leave comments, and I especially don't want to leave a negative comment on someone's page after they've left so many in depth positive comments on everyone else's.

But I don't even know how to perceive a piece without bias if I go into it after reading that you went into composing it to prove to yourself that a certain method of composition was worthless. Like, I don't even know what to say. I think upon hearing this on the soundcloud playlist at the beginning of judgement I found it somewhat generic, normally I would never say something like that on someone's page, I might even try and find something positive about the composition to comment on instead, but if that's what you were going for then... congratulations?

I doubt that all of the positive comments on your submission page here were from people who were just trying to spare your feelings. In this track, you've effortlessly achieved something that others aspire to. Maybe people want to make music like this and they don't know how, and you did it, and that takes skill, knowledge of music theory, a good ear, an understanding of pacing, what have you. And you're here being like all of that is just trash that sounds good. Which maybe? But... so dismissive. I feel like at least some of the other submissions here are the result of "playing with loops in a DAW" ... are they also all forgettable clones? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Anyway, I doubt you really mean that, but I thought you might be interested in how your statement came across to me, in particular. I'm going to hold off on voting for this submission, I think I've already voted on your other one. Have a nice night!

Hello. Thank you for your well-argued and very interesting comment on a particular aspect of my approach which had perhaps escaped me: that of the feelings of others on my own compositional rejection based on the arrangement of pre-made loops. Specially when positive reviews are kindly left, while I criticize my own result. You are undoubtedly right about that: I was probably not sufficiently clear on certain points.

Music is an Art. In itself, trying to create without expressing oneself seems like a total absurdity to me. It is as if an author were writing a book by juxtaposing paragraphs taken as it from pre-made books full of paragraphs specially witten to fit any situation ... Obviously this way of doing things exists, and indeed I protest against this practice so not very personal, so "facilitating" and so standardizing of the final result.

In my eyes (and my ears), no use of loops like the ones I used can reach the interest of a clumsy music of a beginner creating it by improvising on his keyboard and rendered with the most basic sounds. . I allowed myself, in my critical approach, to devalue a non-creative concept so harmful to artistic diversity. But in no case to devalue those and those who appreciate the result, even dull, because it has been studied to please, alas.

My wish is therefore to have tested this tool that I have been criticizing for a long time without having tried it myself. I have been told many times that it was not easier than a traditional composition, and that the artist always had an immense margin of maneuver allowing him to really create something personal, and therefore of artistic. With this realization, I can now confirm that it is not, and that my criticisms were justified.

Now, of course, I cannot forbid anyone from practicing such methods: I took the opportunity to just warn against such renderings which are quickly spottables, and which can demotivate real composers who would compare their own compositions to those renderings made to impress / bluff. As a composer and music (piano and composition) teacher, I am more than tired of hearing more and more often types of cold and tasteless tones in productions that deserve personalized creations by real artists.

If my approach to achieve a result through this and to criticize it may shock at first glance, it is in no way a trap to insult the sympathetic support provided by people who have appreciated (or not) this piece, but well to warn against this standardization. Moreover, over the course of listening to the music offered in this Jam, I had the pleasure of discovering that everyone here will have created their own melodies, used their own style, their own harmonies, to offer a personal OST, without l use of these loops which one finds almost systematically in "semi-professional" productions.

My desire is therefore not to harm, but to support the artist, Art, creativity, and to remind people that the general aesthetic packaging can be bluffing, but only contain emptiness inside. This also explains each of my comments written for this Jam: they are not "nice", but real, each of my compliments being thought out, and not written down to please. Everyone is free, therefore, to vote for this music by granting incredible notes to the level of their own listening experience. By offering my two types of works created using diametrically opposed techniques, I am also curious to know which of these works will interest listeners the most (for my personal information, therefore).

I therefore fully understand your bitterness when you voted for this piece, and the rejection of my approach if it clashes with your personal human values. Know that for my part I have a lot of bitterness that gnaws at me to see the semi-professional and professional market invaded by this way of doing so little artistic for so many years. When an artist spends time creating his melody, choosing his instruments, sequencing his notes, ... and he becomes discouraged (as I have often seen) in front of people who wrongly consider themselves as composers then that they are only putting together "Lego bricks" to the rendering already made, I am not sure that it is not necessary, from time to time, to support the creativity and to criticize the principles without soul, as I have fact (and which is particularly rare to actually read).

Wishing you a great day. And thank you to you for responding with such humanity. Hoping that my explanation can lessen your bitterness towards my motivations. I am not criticizing people, but certain processes. I may have gone wrong in my explanatory text, but my main idea is not intended to harm, on the contrary.

(+1)

Hi. Thanks for outlining some of your perspective. I think part of my confusion here has to do with what is meant by "loop". I tend to think of it as any repeated musical material in a piece of digital music, original or not. I know that in my pieces, a lot of the drum parts and bass lines, and even some of the main melodies, consist of loops that I created for the track myself, either by playing them on my keyboard, or manually clicking them into the program, and then changing them by layering different effects on them. But I understand now these are not the kinds of loops or effects you were referring to.

I'm pleased to hear that when you listened to other submissions you heard only original melodies, and no pre-made loops. But this should not have surprised you, because pre-made loops were not allowed to be used in this jam (and perhaps should not be used in your submission.) It's on the question and answer section on the overview page.




It is interesting to learn that everything in your composition here was a collage of loops made by others, because apart from them not being allowed, I didn't realize that loops like these even existed/were readily available. (I really thought pre-made loops were mainly drum beats ahaha.) If your intention is to teach others how to identify when sound tracks are made up of pre-made loops, and not just to try and fool as many people as possible, I don't know if you have achieved that. Your game page explains everything, but your jam submission page doesn't include any notes about your intent, so some may listen to your composition, vote, and leave with their own impressions, without ever discovering what it actually is. But at least I learned something!
(3 edits)

FAQ
Q: How about samples and sfx?
A: Yes, but please make sure you have the legal rights to use them."

---------------------

From what I understand from the Jam rules, pre-made loops (not made by oneself) are allowed as long as we have officially acquired the rights to use them. Thus, the use of professional loops is not prohibited, while preparing ones own loops in advance was. To avoid the confusing term of loops, I can also speak of professional "samples" (it's sold with this term). In France, the words "Loop" and "Sample" are quite the same meaning, specially for the bought ones in specialized e-stores.

But most of the music in the world is created with loops (a repeated accompaniment, a chord grid, drum kits, a counterpoint melody, ...). These loops are the result of a personal creation, and have all my musical support. I only really criticize the use of loops without souls, sold in aim to bluff (we were all bluffed by the result obtained, even me, whereas on closer inspection it is a pure horror), whose aesthetic is so studied that it makes you forget the total absence of music, art and creativity.

As for the explanation of my motivation, it concerns the work itself: the jam must continue normally and does not need this lighting. On the contrary, I will therefore be able to see if the result I obtained here is still better appreciated than the richer and more personal music we can hear in this Jam. And when the Jam is over, no one will read the description and the opinions on this participation in a Jam: only the main music page will be looked at ...

... Which gives me hope that what I have done here will be useful sooner or later. Especially for those who suffer from a less professional rendering when their ideas are real jewels. Art cannot decently be reduced to an aesthetic-commercial quality. Many scribbles on a piece of paper by real artists are more talented than a building-sized print from a photo montage for a commercial film release with huge fanfare.

(+1)

I understand there is a language barrier here. I think something else was meant by samples, considering that pre-made loops are not allowed. Probably sampled instruments, or something of the sort? It would not make sense for the FAQ to say first that premade loops are not allowed, and then that samples are as long as they are legal, if samples and pre-made loops were equivalent. Maybe it is your responsibility, as someone who acknowledges using only premade loops in your submission, to check with the owner of the jam if there has been a mistake.

I guess I mainly feel that this jam is perhaps not the place for an experiment like this.

Here is where I've found the loops/samples used. As you can see, they use the two different words for the same product. And at the contrary, I don't know a better place to experiment this. But no problem : I have made a mistake in my participation. Not about the samples/loops used, but about 2 different participations (as I don't consider Dyzantheria deserving to being a part of my ImaginaryOST). Thing that is clearely forbidden ... Oupsy ! For this reason, I can, if the jam owner asks me to, delete my Dyzantheria submission. But I've talked to him at the beginning, and when I explained why I had 2 submissions, he didn't tell anything special (he just choosed the ImaginaryOST as the music referent for my jam profile). So ... We are not in a big contest with prices and tv promotion here : I've played with the rules, but nothing terrible. We're between musical friends here, and if Dyzantheria is a problem, I can fix it easily ^^

(+1)

Hi guys, I've just finished reading all your conversation, and OMG. I'll try to be brief. 

First of all, I'm 20, so I'm still young and inmature as an artist, but I'd like to say that I strongly agree with Yazorius about the expression of the artist and I support the authenticity when working on your music. The key is always the weight of your creative decisions, and like he said, something might sound great but might be soul-less... But that's a well known story for everyone, I'd like to add something else to this conversation:

Art expression is VERY LINKED to the uniqueness of the individual and his ideas/style/method. I'm not very into the music production market, I actually do music because I love it, I don't have any formal studies and I learned to play the guitar myself (Sadly I don't play it very often)

 But I'm quite aware of the Real time engines that are being developed. Unreal engine is a great tool, but when the technology is so easy to use, the free assets so easy to get and so, everything ends up being THE SAME, and that is a reflection of what most people really care about, the final product. 

And don't get me wrong, UE is a magnificient tool and has a lot of possibilities, but the easiness which you can get "nice" results is terrible from an artisitc perspective, and this standarization overshadow people who carefully craft their experience with their own stuff. And is not because of the complexity or the technical quality, is about the Authenticity and the UNIQUENESS of the individual.

After reading this, I appreciate more your comments Yazorius. I noticed that you took your time to say something special and special to a lot of people, always trying to be authentic. Thank you

I hope I didn't say too many dumb things. I'm so glad to see people caring about this as well in this jam 

(+1)

Sure, but someone making a track out of pre-made loops and submitting it to this jam for people to rate positively and gush over, amongst everyone else's sincere compositions, seems like a slightly inappropriate way to grind this ax, is all I'm saying.

I'm sorry, jams, that you didn't understand my approach which you summarize as a kind of trap, as if my initial desire was basically to criticize the positive reactions to this "background sound". The reactions, positive or negative, allow me to see how many can appreciate such a rendering to the detriment of an artistic singularity. I do not in any way seek to obtain positive reviews with this music, and have never sought to criticize them (I did not respond to any, good or bad, both for Dyzantheria and for Mushroomland, except yours to explain myself). I respect each individual, both for their art and their tastes, and as I said previously, I understand that one can be amazed by such a musical result, because it is precisely to bluff that such tools have been created.

So, to summarize my approach, here are the reasons, in order, for the upload of Dyzantheria for this jam:

- not being sure I had time to create something, I quickly did Dyzantheria to at least make sure I participated

- Dyzantheria allowed me to finally test these "facilitating" tools myself, since I have always criticized them without ever having tried them.

- After creating Mushroomland, I had the possibility to remove Dyzantheria from the Jam, but I wondered which of the two music would please the most: I had the possibility here to follow a kind of duel between the loops / samples and personal creation

- I was contacted by the author of the Jam who let me have these two entries, knowing that I specified the evil that I thought of Dyzantheria

- I decided that Dyzantheria could be a way, after the Jam, to share this experience, showing the ease but intense standardizing poverty of these tools, while giving my support to the real artists who themselves create their own melodies and harmonies .

Under no circumstances will my goal have been to criticize a human being or making a trap to catch positive comments, but to criticize a technology that can be dangerous for Creativity and Artistic Diversity. And I greatly thank Aibon for having understood perfectly, especially with its parallel with UE, which can lead to the video game clones without flavor or originality, like those which for example massively invade Steam for more than 5 years.