Post by D14b3t1c in Single Again comments

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The following post may contain spoilers: Lilith becomes much more pleasant as the plot progresses (end of 0.11). At the beginning of 0.12 there is a small slip again, but generally she becomes well bearable.

I think that Lilli is not such a badly written character. Her problem is that she is someone with a lot of complexes:

She was a daddy's girl. When her dad took off in the middle of the night, it left her with a huge emotional hole. While she quickly became friends with Abby, Frank was always the intruder in her family because she still had hope that her father would come back one day. In Lilith's Longing, that's Lilli's side story, we learn at the end about some interactions from when Shannon and Frank were still married and he was very caring. So I think that Lilli didn't act that way towards Frank because she's a bitch, but simply because she had the naive hope that she would see her father again, and secondly maybe because she was afraid that if she opened up to him emotionally again she would get hurt if he ran away, which she probably doesn't think is unrealistic since she herself is aware of how she acted.

For the same reason, she is very protective where Abby is concerned: she knows what it's like to be emotionally hurt by her own father and does everything in her power to avoid Abby experiencing the same.

Other complexes: She is very aware that her body is not nearly as proportioned as Abby's or Becca's. While I personally don't see this as problematic, in Lilith's Longing we learn how she caught her ex-boyfriend and ex-work colleague and could hear them making fun of her figure, etc. I think that no small part of Lilli's self-healing process will focus on her finally managing to realize that her body is absolutely fine and she finally accepts it.

In conclusion, I think Lilith manages to bring a certain amount of drama to the plot with her storyline without letting it degenerate into trash on a Rosamunde Pilcher level. And while I agree, yes Lilith is very intense in the beginning, and I don't know how common it is for stepparents and stepchildren to have a strained relationship, at least in fiction it's a relatively common motif.

sycopter3 years ago (1 edit)

hi, thanks for your very informed information, I really appreciate you taking the time out to make your post explaining to me how things are going to develop. I am quite relieved that Lilly will become bearable, friendly towards frank. However will this be a harem type of situation, I hope there will be no ntr rubbish, I really can't stand it. If there is to be a harem situation, which presumably there probably will be because I think it would get quite dull quite quickly being tied to just one woman all of the time, i also thought one of the lesbians that was going to move in to the apartment that frank sold them, where he, gave him the eye at least that is how I perceived it) However, if there is a harem situation, which I tend to like quite a lot because it gives variation within the game, so your not stuck to just one woman, you can freely move from woman to woman without being penalized for doing so. (in real life I have never even thought about polygamy with 2 or more women since it isn't exactly the norm in Europe, probably isn't in too many other places except the middle east. I wouldn't even know how such a dynamic could possibly work without arguments etc, well I do, but I won't elaborate here, because it's pretty obvious I think) However who can Frank have relationships with does this include abby and lilly? Is every woman available to him to pursue without being penalized? thanks again

D14b3t1c3 years ago(+2)(-1)

NTR wouldn't fit the plot in my opinion, and I don't think it would really fit Becca's plans either. I remember vaguely that there were people who pushed Lilith's longing a bit in that direction, either because of the scenes between Lili and her then-boyfriend or because of the scene with Abby and Lili (I'm not sure about that, but most people got upset because of the scenes with Lili and her now ex-boyfriend and I just think to myself: Jesus, the girl is 19 and it's mentioned during the plot of the main game that she already had some boyfriends. I would be much surprised if she was still a virgin after x boyfriends).

I think it will be more towards light harem, Becca already said that her target is "Frank, Abby, herself, Lili and more people Frank wants in this relationship". A favorite for me would be Meiko: Her parents want to set her up with Frank, she obviously has feelings for Frank and Abby, Lili and Becca like her, so I think she will join at some point.
As for Lili and Abby: Lili is very protective of Abby and the only realistic situation for me of Lili being okay with Abby having a thing with Frank is the following: Frank and Lili are at it and a drunk (or at least pretending to be) Abby joins them. Ideally, Lili would already be very much in the mood in that situation, so Abby would have a very easy time "mouthing off" to Lili so she could join in. However, I don't see that happening for now, the focus will be on Lili building up her self-esteem, since you can learn that she feels a little intimidated by Becca and Abby in terms of her physical development. Therefore, I also think that a too early scene with Frank+Lili+Abby would not be helpful for Lili, as she would then possibly see herself in competition with Abby in terms of attention.

As for the lesbian couple Vanessa and Elizabeth: Elizabeth's bio says she wants to have a child and that Vanessa isn't against it, but she thinks they aren't ready for it yet. I doubt that they will be part of the quartet (Frank+Abby+Lili+Becca) or quintet (+Meiko), but I can imagine that if Frank respects their wishes, he might be asked if he wants to be the father of the child.

It is mentioned at the beginning that more characters will be added, but I think that the current characters are already enough as important people.

So in short I can say Becca's plan is Frank+Abby+Lili+ herself plus optionally Meiko. Vanessa will rather stay out of it, I think. Her wife Elizabeth is more bisexual but I think the two of them (her and Frank) are leaning more towards friends with benefits and only if Vanessa gives the green light, she knows about it and Frank plays by the rules.

At this point, another interesting assumption that was voiced and that is quite plausible (but so far without evidence for and against):

Becca is Frank's biological daughter. Shannon and Frank were a couple for a while at 16, until Shannon had to move in with her aunt for unknown reasons. Shannon is currently 39 and Becca 23, meaning she had Becca at 16. Shannon did not meet and marry Lilith's father until a few years later. That means it will come down to one of these theses:

1. Frank is the father and Shannon had to move away because she was pregnant.

2. Frank is not the father. Shannon had an affair/one-night stand with Becca's biological father at some point.

3. Becca is not the father, Shannon did not have an affair when she was with Frank but got someone new relatively quickly who got her pregnant.

sycopter3 years ago (1 edit)

it's definitely all very intriguing for sure. I was always under the assumption that Frank and Abbey would be the main thing, but not sure why if after abbey told him to share the only bed with, not once but several times, that when you do share the bed with her for some reason or other you end up with a game over because she thinks Frank is a pervert, except he really didn't do anything wrong, he fell asleep and for some reason, when he woke up she was draped across him and then he is accused of being a pervert which really isn't the case and I don't think it really makes sense that Abby should say that, especially knowing the lesbo thing she and Lillith did etc.

Even before they go for drinks it's pretty evident in her behaviour she is very interested in Frank in more than a daughterly way, but what I don't get is why would Frank let Abbey make an absolute fool of herself in front of Becca, especially when Becca tells Frank that she is drunk, which is very evident from her behaviour but Frank still sits there watching his daughter make an even bigger fool of herself, instead of trying to get her back home where she can sleep it off and for her own safety.

Not sure why he didn't intervene that seemed very odd. I know if I had a daughter and she started behaving the way Abbey did, my first response would be to take her back home so she could sleep it off, instead of embarrassing herself even more.

When Lillith speaks to her sexually, why doesn't Abbey be more authoritative and stop her, or even tell Frank what she is doing to her or what she did do to her? It might seem out of place, but if Frank is her father, and it's clear she trusts him, why has she not said anything on the quiet to her dad. I am not sure if Frank would say anything to Lillith given her current behavior anyway, which is pretty cordial or cold as it is.

I am also a little concerned or puzzled about the way Abbey starts fondling Becca when she is drunk right in front of her dad, yet has the audacity to tell her own father that he is a pervert, despite the fact, all he did was sleep because he exhausted and sore after sleeping on the sofa for so long and even put up some kind of light ristance to it, and abbey drags him to bed and tells him to undress her, she calls him dad i think..so she knew what she was doing otherwise she wouldnt have said it in the first place, i mean if some guy she barely knew for example was in her bed and she didnt want him there, he wouldnt be there, which is why this is just a bit silly for the game over. Very hypocritical of his daughter to call him that, despite having sexual interaction with Lillith and still keeping it a secret from Frank, what I don't know is if she and Lillith have this little tryst often or not or if it was a one-off, i mean up to the point we are in the story now. The fact if you sleep on the bed and it ends him being called a pervert by his perverted daughter is a bit ridiculous for it to be game over. Especially given the fact, she has asked him and told him they can share the bed. drunk daughter or not, it shouldn't be game over..unless the game over is a placeholder for upcoming patches? it just utterly ridiculous for that to happen otherwise.

D14b3t1c3 years ago

As for the Abby grabbing an unknowing Becca scene: I assume the following things:

Frank didn't know at the time how disinhibited Abby gets from alcohol.

The situation was like a car accident: you don't want to look, but you can't look away either.

A lesson in moderation for Abby? They've known each other long enough, and I think if Abby had done that to a complete stranger, Frank would have intervened.

As for the scenes between Lilli and Abby: I think the two are primarily stepsisters with certain merits. Both have no problems with what they do with each other, but still they don't want to talk about it with the parents or the paternal figure. I can imagine that's awkward - almost as awkward as catching the parents doing it.

The safe approach the first time they go out drinking with Abby is not to get involved in sharing the bed with her. Later, Frank knows better and takes precautions.

Yes, Abby should definitely know better and I'm not a big fan of the scene either, but here's what I suspect: Lili warns Abby about Frank, of course those warnings are unfounded, but Lili is just very overprotective of Abby. Abby, unfortunately, knows no measure and drinks herself into a film tear and then wakes up half-naked next to her father figure. Even if she actually knows better, I think her reaction can't be blamed on her, in the heat of the moment.

But I can definitely say: Up to and including 0.12, no day ends with a forced game over but with a more or less restful sleep, either in bed or on the uncomfortable couch. I would therefore recommend to reconsider a few decisions in the first date with Drunk Abby or to look for a walkthrough.

sycopter3 years ago

I'll definitely do that, do a replay. Instead of helping Abby when she goes upstairs, it's probably a much safer bet to let her do her own thing, so there is no game over. Normally i wouldn't bother with a walkthrough unless it is really necessary and it's too easy to mess up. On the other hand, I make hard saves before each choice, so as to avoid having to completely replay every over again. With some AVN's i really don't mind replaying them when they are completed if they are good and I like the MC enough, but the problem is, too many AVN's have terrible main characters, which in turn train wrecks it all for me. I get to the point where I think, wow I really cannot stand reading anything this character is saying anymore, I just can't stand him.

I've never understood why some writers and I am learning quite fast a lot of writers, can't help but write awful main characters, that are awful from beginning to end in one way or another. Thankfully I have a couple more vn's where the MC is likeable and I can understand him, without him behaving like a 5-year kid with mental retardation and social issues, and those characters in fact get worse through their own storylines, its as if the writers couldn't care less about the protagonist at all. I guess they don't seem to realize that the main character can either break or make a good vn.

Thankfully Frank seems to be a good guy and so far nothing he has said has got my hackles up to hate him and I don't think this will be the case at all with him through the entirety of this journey or story.

Looking forward to the next update, although I haven't got a clue when that is. Hopefully, it isn't too far away.

D14b3t1c3 years ago

If I remember correctly, you can help her up, but you have to categorically refuse to sleep with her the first time. Later there is a repetition of this situation, but then Frank is prepared.

I share your opinion about good and bad AVN, I also have my personal favorite authors and those that I find rather less good. Clever Name Games is one of my 4-5 favorites. Here and there you can see that there is still potential for improvement, but at the same time you can see an improvement compared to the beginning. For example, I remember a movement animation with Abby (?), which at least to me seemed very robotic or like on an automatic turntable. I think CNG didn't use something like that so actively afterwards and I just assume that CNG itself wasn't that happy with it or a patreon noted that.

Frank as the apparent main character (I have a hunch that actually Becca is the main character and we're playing a "corruption plot" in which exceptionally the player is corrupted, if that's the case and you're reading this CNG, deep respect, that should be stylistically quite innovative) is definitely a more sympathetic character compared to other characters who slip into the role of the father or paternal figure. I know of at least 2-3 AVN where the protagonist is either the father or a paternal figure and the father would either fall into the category of predator, the plot is rushed through too quickly for me personally and I feel like the character development of the female characters is getting short shrift and it's hard to see them as anything more than fetishizations or what was very new for me: the plot escalates in an absolutely new direction and you get the feeling that the author has no idea where he's actually going with the plot.

From there CNG actually does a lot right for me: The pace with Becca, Abby and Lilith is actually well chosen for me. At 0.12, Frank is actually a bit exhausting. His inner conflict makes sense and actually makes him sympathetic for me, but 0.12 is then also a bit exhausting for me here. In this context, I would like to see a bit more interaction with the masses. I respect and accept when CNG interacts more with the supporters, but it would be quite interesting for me to know if CNG here actually only wanted to troll the people who criticize Frank's inner conflict quite harshly and unconstructively. At the same time, I think that quite interesting dialogues with people who find CNG's AVN good, but do not have the money to support him, such as my person. For example, I once analyzed a certain sentence of Becca (which I won't mention here because I don't know if you already know it) and in the current update Becca explains it again and my personal assumptions actually coincide quite well with her remarks. Therefore I would like to know, for example, what CNG thinks about what it says about me that I have analyzed it relatively well. But as I said, I respect and accept CNG's decision in this regard, even if I find it somewhat regrettable.

As a conclusion I would say so far Becca and Lilli are my favorite characters: Lilli is well written in my opinion. Becca, on the other hand, is someone with whom I, as a player with some meta-knowledge, would be happy to discuss her plans, if only to find out how far I'm right and where I'm wrong.

GnatBa3 years ago

Thought it was actually pretty clear, but a big part of the issue that the other reply doesn't address is Abby is apparently a total blackout drinker. The reason she freaks out resulting in a game over is she doesn't just not remember it was her idea. She doesn't even remember getting drunk. And just because she's fine getting frisky with Lillith on occasion and wants her Dad to sleep in a real bed doesn't means she's fine sleeping in bed virtually nude with her Dad... at least not consciously (yet). And since she doesn't even remember getting drunk, following Lillith's prodding, she, as she clearly says, jumps to the "He drugged me" conclusion.

sycopter3 years ago

Becca is not shocked that abbey is a whore. Becca encourages abbey to get drunk, despite she has had enough to drink but abbey like the obedient slut obeys and drinks and then launches herself at Becca's boobs...Becca knew full well what was going to happen...it seems to be full of very unlikeable women so far--i just hope we are going to see a change around very soon with these girls.

D14b3t1c3 years ago

I would say that this description of Abby does go a bit far. Where I agree: The alcohol disinhibits her quite a bit and she's a lightweight when it comes to drinking.

I think the situation where she grabs Becca had the thought process of "oh, there's my stepsister I'm going messing with." In the long history of alcohol, Abby is certainly not the first person to have had such and more foolish ideas. I think that the fact that Abby has always been treated very much like a raw egg by Frank, Lilith and Becca so far means that she lacks the experience that decisions made under the influence of alcohol can have serious consequences. Becca said it herself in the scene: If it hadn't been for Abby, she would have caught one. I think a slightly chilling consequence that goes beyond embarrassment is definitely needed to make her reconsider her drinking habits. Or diabetes. Then she can say goodbye to alcohol, too.

I see the responsibility here, at least from the second time on, more with Frank: He knows by now that Abby is a lightweight and still doesn't manage to prevent Abby from getting drunk.

Apart from the drinking behavior and the handling of alcohol, however, I think the ladies are okay:

Becca is definitely manipulative and pursues her own plans but in the long run they are also for the good of Frank, Abby and Lilli, as you can see with the judge during the divorce. She definitely cares about the welfare of the three.

Abby, for one, is essential to Lilli's character development and one of the few who can calm an angry Lilli. In addition, she will also go through a certain amount of character development through a certain encounter.

Lilli is known to have a bunch of problems of an emotional nature and therefore has the greatest amount of character development ahead of her, but you start to see this in 0.11, 0.12 and Lilith's Longing.

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