Post by Alex Leone in The Priest Questions and Feedback

Regarding the second option from the list:

ask the World what they believe is the best course of action, and gain Advantage to enact this plan

Who is the world answering this question as? Like, if the World is answering a question of fact about the world (as in Look Around, Read Someone, or Recall Lore, for example), that makes sense. If the World is answering a question from the perspective of an NPC (as in Threaten or the Minstrel’s Charming and Open move, for example), that makes sense.

What perspective does the World say what “they” believe in this move? From the World player’s perspective? From the god’s perspective? From some other perspective?

If I was the World, I’d be unsure how to answer this question (“What do you believe is the best course of action?”) if a Priest asked me, as it’s written now!

Alessandro Piroddi3 years ago

In the Guidance move the Priest is ultimately interrogating "their heart" for advice.

So either the Player expresses what they believe/imagine that the Priest's heart says...
Or the World will tell the Player what they believe/imagine that the Priest's heart says...
Or there will be silence...

It's not about perception and the parsing of factual information. It's not about effectiveness :P

It's about self reflection and dramatic choices. The actual info is irrelevant, as it will always offer Advantage no matter what. We are interested in having the Priest question their heart. Or to see how the Priest reacts to the way someone else (the World) imagines the Priest's heart to be. Also keeping in mind that the World was just now informed of what the Priest is afraid of in this situation, and knows what their Issue and Doubt are. So most probably the World will do something to facilitate and enhance the DRAMA of the Priest's story... which is their whole job anyway :P

Does this clarify?

Alex Leone3 years ago (1 edit)

It kind of makes sense, but the idea that the Priest is interrogating “their heart” for advice is very unclear in the move.

Also, the World answering for the player’s heart still seems weird. It seems to conflict with the rule that players say what their PC does and says and thinks and feels. How come the World gets to decide what’s in the Priest’s heart? (And, does the Priest know that that’s how the World is deciding?)

That is: I’m still confused about this option, and I’m not sure what to do about it. I’ll give it some more thought. Thank you for all your thoughts on the move! :)

Alessandro Piroddi3 years ago(+1)

It's always the Player's choice.

When you ask your deity for counsel and guidance about your future actions >>>

<<< [bla bla your fear bla] Then listen to your heart and pick one:

Here we see the Priest asking/praying their deity for guidance. Then internally reflecting on their fear for this situation (with the Player plainly communicating it to the World). Finally the Priest is instructed to "listen to their heart" and pick one option among 3 available...

- describe what you believe is the best course of action, then gain 1 XP

- ask the World what they believe is the best course of action, and gain Advantage to enact this plan

- alone with your doubts, tell the World how your deity's silence makes you feel. If it's just punishment, why do you deserve it? If it's malice or indifference, why do you stand for it? Either way mark Growth (only once per session)

So the Player can choose to describe what they think the Priest's heart wants them to do.

Or for whatever reason the Player can choose to pass the ball to the World. Maybe they have no ideas. Maybe they genuinely yearn for guidance that comes from an external source. Maybe they want someone else to mess with the Priest's heart for the drama and the lulz.

Or maybe the Player goes for the "silence". Maybe it's more interesting for them. Or maybe they really want the extra Growth mark.

Seems pretty clear to me.

But one thing I could do to make it all clearer is maybe change the wording to direct more attention to the "heart" thing. Like so...

- describe what your heart tells you is the best course of action, then gain 1 XP
- ask the World what your heart tells you is the best course of action, and gain Advantage to enact this plan

Alex Leone3 years ago (5 edits)

Thanks for your thoughts on this! I have a clearer idea what you’re going for, now.

The clarification of adding “what your heart tells you” to both options does make it clearer what you’re going for! So it’s a good addition in that sense.

Still, as the World, I would feel uncomfortable answering the question, “What does Piotr’s heart tell him?” Especially because of the rule I linked in my last post, where the “player says what their PC does and says and thinks and feels” (emphasis mine). That is, this option in “Guidance” upsets the natural flow of the game, where the players tell you what their characters think and feel. That upset can happen here! It just feels weird, because it’s changing how we’ve played the game so far, up until this point, where everyone has so far been responsible for their own character’s thoughts and feelings.

If that upset is important to you, and that uncomfortable feeling is what you’re going for, you can leave it as is, of course. I’d just suggest that you recognize that this upsets one of the core rules of the game, and then design whatever you want accordingly.

Side note: I understand that the player gets to choose who tells them what’s in their heart. My discomfort with the second option of this move isn’t because the player doesn’t have a choice. The discomfort (as I described above), is that, as the World, I might be asked to tell another player what they think and feel.

EDIT: If you’re looking to introduce an external influence, what if you changed the second option to something like this:

The next person to speak up has a message from your deity; gain Advantage to do what they suggest

This happens often in Christian circles, at least. Someone will pray, “God, please send me a sign, what should I do?” and then someone will give exactly the guidance or help they were looking for. This change also means that the Priest decides what their heart is looking for: it’s looking for a sign! Whoever happens to speak up next could be anyone, for any reason–the Priest’s heart could just be interpreting the event as a sign from their god.

If you don’t like that the version above requires people, you can also go with something like this:

Describe where you look for a sign from your deity–someone else’s words or a feature in your surroundings. The World will describe what you see, and what it appears to mean. Gain Advantage to act on this sign.

Alessandro Piroddi3 years ago

Two things to address...

One
No, having someone else tell you what your PC feels does not upset the general game philosophy. First of all, because you specifically asked them to do this specific thing. It's the classic case of a specific and circumscribed rule that modifies/trumps a more general rule. Secondly, it's ok because you might have this flash of insight about what your heart tells you... but then YOU get to decide what to do with it. Follow it? Ignore it? Challenge it?

The effect is akin to people that toss a coin to see if Heads or Tails comes out. Maybe because in this one instance they don't want to decide, so a random/external outcome is preferable to being forced to make a choice of their own. But maybe also because they know that having this external source pick an option for you might trigger your brain into revealing that, after all, you DID have a preference. You get Heads and go "oh no!" ... and that's your answer for you :)

For these reasons the World is free, and even encouraged, to mess with the PC. It makes no real difference. Tell them something random. Or stupid. Or extreme. Or tell them plain and simple what you (the World) would like to see them doing! It matters very little.

But... the implication that THIS is what their heart desires will often provoke a relatively strong reaction from the Player of the Priest, prompting active self reflection.

Maybe it could be formulated like this, for optimal effect:

ask the World what your heart tells you is the best course of action, then tell them how you feel about this revelation: is it (un)like yourself? is it an (un)welcome truth?
If you act on your heart’s advice, you gain Advantage.

Two
Don't confuse the levels of the move ;-)
The PLAYER is indecisive and looks for external input... from the World, or a fellow Player, or a coin toss.
The PRIEST asks their deity for guidance.
The PRIEST gets an answer from within, from their heart, from their inner beliefs.
The PRIEST uses that input as their deity's answer.

In the fiction, the answer only ever comes from within. There is no external force. There is no deity. The point of the move is to have the Priest produce their own answer. The fact that at the table that answer came from the Player's mind or the World or another Player, is immaterial.

On another note... what you suggest is what the Priest does with the Signs and Portents move :)
The PRIEST sees something external (a person, a sunrise, a boat, a frog, whatever) and ascribes divine meaning to it.

Alex Leone3 years ago

On another note… what you suggest is what the Priest does with the Signs and Portents move

You’re absolutely right! That does look nearly identical.

Here, what about this?

ask the World what thought or feeling springs into your heart, unbidden. If you act on this thought or feeling, you get Advantage.

This feels much better to me, and seems to get at some of your design goals you mention above.

Thoughts?

itch.io

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