Post by bitshiftgames in An important note on the current state of the world and explicit entertainment comments

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To some degree, it's a matter of perspective. It's possible to look at anyone and see them as right, or left, depending on your standards. See No True Scotsman, etc. And I'm sure some agree with you regarding the given examples. By most people's criteria, however, both are left wing. Dines is, again, a feminist and a socialist. Ackman supports the democratic party, and Planned Parenthood. This is sufficient to put them on the left for MOST people, though some certainly may disagree.

But also, is it relevant either way? As you go further to the left, to whatever degree would count as "true" left to you, is the problem solved? Do you arrive at people who would suddenly be fine with this kind of expression? It's my experience that you do not, that in fact the cries of moral panic demanding censorship only grow louder. To be sure, there are feminists, socialists and so on that advocate for sexual freedom including free expression, and if you're one of them, great! But as a percentage of the whole that's a vanishingly small group, especially in the real world, outside insulated internet communities.

dasypygal275 days ago(+2)(-1)

Historically, censorship is not a right/left dichotomy. Tipper Gore was big into censorship and it definitely cost her husband votes in 2000.

However, let's look at the states that have passed laws effectively banning pornography: Montana, Utah, Texas, Arkansas, Missouri, Mississippi, Louisiana, North Carolina and Virginia, with Arizona and Kansas having bills coming up for vote.

Of these only Virginia had split control between parties in the legislature (at the time the law was passed). All the others had one particular party in control of both chambers.

Now, I don't mean to imply that this is an entirely one-sided issue - it isn't - But just because both sides are bad doesn't mean that both side are equally bad.

I think framing it as right/left is a bit... I don't know, it's not a good way to discuss it. What we are seeing is a rise in authoritarianism (worldwide) and, in the US at least, one party has gone all in on authoritarianism while the other just dabbles in it.

bitshiftgames275 days ago (1 edit) (+1)

Clinton was also big on censorship in the 90s, as seen in her attack on rap music of the era. Left wing politicians were no fan of violent video games at that time, or GTA when it first started to make waves, etc, etc.

It is undeniable that right wing politicians and activists have long hated sexual freedom, and sexual expression. But look at that porn ID map I posted again. Yes, right wing states lead the charge, but California's up on the board too, along with a number of moderate states. What I'm trying to get across is that the left is no longer the safe haven for free expression that it used to be. The two sides may not be identically bad on this issue, but the difference is rapidly diminishing.

"What we are seeing is a rise in authoritarianism (worldwide) and, in the US at least, one party has gone all in on authoritarianism while the other just dabbles in it." I don't mean this as a personal attack, but it's naive to believe this, and it's exactly that naivety that I was trying to address in my post. Both sides seek power, for powers sake. Both sides will, and have abused that power once they get it. Both sides like to accuse each other of authoritarianism, and both are right. The DEGREE to which they are right mostly tends to come down to who happens to be in power at the moment.

But let's bring this back to the practical again. Imagine I had to defend this game, or any of the explicit content on Itch, to a right wing politician, and a left wing one. Would I have a slightly easier time on the left? Sure. Enough to matter? No. They'd take one look and have a laundry list of reasons it needed to be de-platformed RIGHT NOW. The only reason we're still able to enjoy the level of freedom we do on the Internet, sexual or otherwise, is that the things we love haven't cropped up on a politician's radar as a juicy target for self-promotion. And that's steadily changing.

Remember when Apple said they were "protecting" their users by banning explicit content? Or the time they destroyed Tumblr by temporarily pulling its app over explicit content, leading to panic and hasty censorship? Or the time they called the explicit content on Itch "Unspeakable"? Consider Apple: its leadership, workforce, typical customers and fans. Would you characterize them as "right wing"?

If one guy's gonna shoot you in the head, and another in the gut, is that different? Yes. But you die either way. That's why I'm treating it as equivalent. The difference, in my domain of making horny games on the internet, isn't enough to matter. If the left wing is ascendant, keeps the presidency, sweeps congress, gets a majority on the court, is that going to help protect me, or you, or anyone who enjoys this stuff? No. Because they need to get re-elected, and the way to do that is to whip up moral panic among "normies" by showing them something scary on the fringes and promising to destroy it. All you have to do is look at the left's reaction to Rapelay to see exactly how this would play out in real time. The right didn't even blink at that game, it was never on their radar. But the left, both in media and politics absolutely laid into it, transforming what was an obscure minor fetish game into an enduring internet bogeyman. In the end:

"These actions culminated in the restriction of the sale and production of RapeLay by the Ethics Organization of Computer Software (EOCS), an independent Japanese ratings organization for adult games, making it impossible to purchase the game even in Japan."

It's entirely reasonable to have issues with that game, even I think it may have gone a bit far in some places. But the fact remains that it was entirely fictional, and entirely legal to produce and sell under Japanese law. And it was utterly, ruthlessly destroyed by the left.

I'm sure we disagree on many things, but I hope I can get at least this across: we're a bunch of weirdos here. Weirdos have to look out for each other. So please take it to heart when I say that if you have any interests, any hobbies, any thoughts or feelings or inclinations outside the absolute mainstream, politicians and activists are not your friend. Not on the right, and not on the left. They will skin you alive as soon as it's expedient to do so.

So for those reasons, in my humble view, yes, it's an "equal" dichotomy.

dasypygal275 days ago(+2)(-1)

I see what you're saying, but just to clarify, you need to drill down on this just a bit more on what the map says for the states not wholly controlled by the GOP:
CA - AB3080 - Introduced by Juan Alanis (R)
NJ - A4146 - Introduced by by Jay Webber (R)
NM - HB295 - Sponsors John Block (R), Rep. Alan Martinez (R), Rep. Harlan Vincent (R)
PA - HB2143 - Introduced by Jill Cooper (R)
DE - HB265 - 17 sponsors, 11R/7D
IL - HB4247 - 8 sponsors, all R
IA - HF2546 - Introduced by John Wills (R)
OH - SB212 - Sponsors Stephanie Kunze (R), William P. DeMora (D)

So, yeah, there's some bipartisan support, but let's not kid ourselves about 'both sides' here, this push is being done overwhelmingly by one party with some support from the other side. And I'm not seeing a lot of public crowing on this front from the D politicians, while the Ken Paxton's of the US won't shut up about the (imagined) dangers of pornography.

Regarding reaction to your specific work, from a content standpoint I think there's a big difference between fantasy scenarios (like CS) and realistic depictions of rape. Hypno-erotica has a pretty large following and it's relatively harmless because mind control isn't actually real. Games where realistic rape is emphasized and eroticized are going to be more objectionable to audiences across the political spectrum.

That being said, you're right. Most people would not understand the difference. Most people are reductionist and reactionary.

Courts would be a recourse for protection (see Larry Flynt), but not if they are stacked with justices who are willing to trample on free expression under the guise of protecting children, like the very conservative 5th circuit in their recent ruling. A progressive-minded judge is far more likely to consider the lack of harm in written or illustrated works or even artistic merit therein, rather than just object to it on moralistic grounds, and rule accordingly. There's a reason only one party objects to the work of the ACLU.

I think we probably agree on a lot of things. I am a life-long believer in free expression, I've sold books to people for everything from a how-to guide for fisting, to home methamphetamine manufacturing and everything in-between. If it is legal to sell it, people should be allowed to buy it, and the list of things illegal to sell should be limited to that which causes harm in its production. Free expression is the cornerstone to our society and I will fight tooth and nail (metaphorically speaking) to protect that expression, even if I disagree with it.

And to be completely honest - I don't think seeing a cartoon rabbit getting railed is all that weird. This world is way, way crazier than that.

bitshiftgames275 days ago(+1)

Well, I think I've laid out the case for my position as best as I can, so as we're both mostly still unconvinced, I'll leave it at that. All I can say is to re-iterate that while I'm no fan of the right, a whole lot of the problems I have to deal with keep coming from the left, or at least a certain portion of it. I worry a lot less about Republicans these days (not because they've improved, but because they're a known quantity) and a lot more about those who run tech companies and payment processors, most of whom aren't big fans of the Bible or Family Values. It's obviously both. If we can't agree as to the PORTIONS of both, or who the "real" problem is, we'll just have to live with that. As long as I can bring up a person and say "Hey look, this guy's trying to squash sexual expression!" and your response is "Wow, what a fuckshit, fuck him", regardless of affiliation, that's enough common spirit to get by on.

I am glad we at least have common ground on "Most people would not understand the difference." That's mostly what I'm trying to get across here. Obviously what I make isn't as inflammatory or objectionable as a lot of content, and that's partially by design. But that's not going to be enough if this continues. Hypno, of any kind, is already banned on Patreon, RIGHT NOW. Non-con, of any kind, is already banned on Pateron, RIGHT NOW. Super-duper-extra-double-no-kidding banned (It's kind of darkly funny reading their terms as they have to spell out every "in minecraft" way people have tried to get around this). Hopefully I'm overreacting, and this will play out like it usually does: politicians "fix" something by making everything a little worse, but not SO much worse that it brings everything to a halt, and we all go on with our lives more or less the same, just with one more annoyance to deal with. I just felt, in some way, that people should be aware of this. I don't know if there's anything that can actually be done, usually there isn't. But if there is, even in some small way, people have to know in the first place.

I'd also like to say that I recognize and appreciate the patience and respect you've approached all this with, despite the gulf in perspective and opinion. I said some things that made you uncomfortable, and vise versa, but we were still mostly able to keep this on the rails. Extremely rare these days. Thank you.

Also:

"I've sold books to people for everything from a how-to guide for fisting, to home methamphetamine manufacturing and everything in-between."

That's one heck of a second-hand book store (Or publisher?) Any copies of a certain forbidden cookbook still floating around?

dasypygal275 days ago(+1)(-1)

That cookbook is pretty lame, honestly. There's way more subversive stuff than that, look up anything by Uncle Fester. And most of these were not in stock at the store, but we could get them, though there were plenty of controversial, racy, subversive or just plain weird books that we carried normally (sure everyone has the Kama Sutra, but have you read Magic Eye Kama Sutra? It's like a guidebook, but in stereogram form!). I miss working at the bookstore, I always found something new and interesting to read, but I don't miss all the crazy people.

bitshiftgames274 days ago

Oh I know, but it's the meme. Place in public imagination counts for a lot. Never got the chance to work at a bookstore, indie or otherwise, they were all obliterated by the time I was looking for work, but I did apply for an actual, honest-to-god porn shop once, before THOSE were all obliterated, out of morbid curiosity, and the craziest thing by far wasn't the porn, it was the customers that would come in looking for...other things, those super-dangerous "legal" smokables, that kind of shit. Didn't even take the job, this was just during the interview!
Also god, I do not miss those Magic Eye books. Fucked you up something terrible. I once got a book that was a Choose-your-own-adventure WITH magic eye pictures. Printed in black and white on really shitty paperback stock. So you'd have to look at a picture for each choice and then choose based on what you thought you saw. Sheer sadism.

Randess272 days ago (3 edits) (-1)

Oui. Lefties might be censoring a lot right now, but that's just because lefties happen to hold the reins on most social issues at the moment. We can see historically that righties like to censor just as much (and even more tbh).

Lefties will tell you you can't have fun and try to break your toys and call you names, righties will break into your house, tie you to your bed, and burn the house down.

Both sides are ridiculous and need to learn to live and let live, but... when the righties were in charge we couldn't even have a girl x (technically) girl kiss on Mass Effect without "bringing the downfall of American civilization" and making ME2 noticeably miss any same-sex option (RIP the planned bi-Garrus/Tali romances).

And even further back, we get "DND is Satanic", something my grandfather still believes...

Still, censorship is generally wrong no matter who's doing it. Needs to be called out regardless.

(And frankly with how radical everyone is getting, lefties might start burning people in their beds too)

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