itch.io

Hey QZForge! I followed you the other day and I forgot to comment on your page apparently.

This is a really cool tool and a good idea. The UI looks good too based on the screenshots.

My own plans for my next project are not clear enough yet for me to know whether or not I'll want/need something like this, but it is possible and so I've bookmarked it in case my design pans out that way.

A month or two back I had even had a similar idea occur to me (a pixel art batch processing conversion program) and so it was a nice turn of random luck to stumble upon someone who had made something like this at about the same time already. 

Congrats on the good work QZ! Keep dreaming the dream and living the life! This is a very promising start as your first project release I have to say. 😎

I hope this tool gets some good traffic. It looks like it deserves it.

I'm interested to see what the game you are working on will turn out like, so feel free to tell me when you release it. I'm also following you though, so I supposed it'll probably tell me anyway (as long as it is on Itch, at least, of course).

Anyway, have a good day/night/etc!

All of the major engines in current use (Unity, Unreal Engine, Godot, Defold, etc) were created mostly before the advent of theft-based generative AI and had the vast majority of their features already complete before it. Most major libraries and frameworks are the same (feature complete long before the advent of theft-based AI). It is also extremely doubtful that theft-based AI use is as ubiquitous as you are suggestion. I don't see much evidence of that, though I do see lots of evidence of AI companies constantly trying to force AI down my throat against my will by adding it to countless things it has no business ever being added to.

Regardless, it does not really matter whether they were or weren't, ultimately, morally. My point is still the same, as is my stance: I don't want any AI to have touched any part of any creative work that I support. Circumstances could force me use something that has been tainted in some way by theft-based AI, conceivably, or I could be unaware of it, but the principle remains the same and always will: I avoid supporting any of it as much as practical. It is automated theft, regardless of anyone ever trying to rationalize the contrary. Training solely on one's one work (or one's team's work) could be the exception I suppose (though I would never do it nor allow it on any team under my own control if that day ever comes), but even then you have to keep in mind that the baseline for the AI models may already contain partial pre-training on IP infringing work even prior to the point where someone trains it on their own work, and so even then it may in essence still contain plagiarism.

I have worked in the AAA game dev industry before and I have seen what artists have sacrificed to get there and it is disgusting to see so many people making up excuses for systematically stealing the work of these people. Concept artists were hit especially hard.

The AI situation reminds me somewhat of the Trail of Tears and other historical events where settlers repeatedly made up excuses to just keep stealing the Native Americans' land based on nothing but their own desire for more wealth and land. That is very similar to the same kind of energy and rationalization I sense every time I see someone going into contortions (like you are here, frankly) to rationalize the systematic theft of other people's work or to conveniently buy into the misleading rhetoric and propaganda the AI companies are delibrately spreading to make people think that it is all just merely technological progress in action or that it isn't hurting people or that the AI is just taking "inspiration", etc. That is all just AI propaganda designed to open up an avenue for the AI tech companies to essentially steal 95%+ of the rest of humanity's digital work without any need to compensate them, causing wealth inequality to potentially become worse than ever before in history (de facto digital slavery essentially... it is the most dystopian thing I have ever witnessed).

Above all, I do not believe in defeatism with regards to ethics.

I can only control what is in my power to control and in that regard I will always do what is in my power to minimize the extent to which anything touched by theft-based AI has any presence in my life. Indeed, with the pervasive and unethical and non-consensual pushing of AI by these numerous immoral companies it may indeed become impossible to avoid partial contact with it, especially with having one's own data unwilling stolen by the companies to be "trained" (in reality to be integrated into an automated randomized plagiarism engine that is called "training" just as part of a way of covering up the systematic theft and reducing the chances of being held accountable for it).

Theft-based AI is the most unethical thing I have ever witnessed the tech industry do in my life. It is almost mindbogglingly evil and greedy and will likely be highly corrosive to the integrity and meaningful survival of the internet if current trends continue.

It is essentially the largest act of intellectual property theft in the entire history of humankind and the people responsible for it should receive punishment proportional to the magnitude of that unfathomably large crime against real artists (and all other creators) everywhere.

Your rhetoric about theft-based AI merely being "progress" akin to photography is complete disingenuous sophistry. Photography didn't involve stealing from painters. There is nothing about this theft-based AI that is inevitable. It is simply being forced upon everyone else by greedy and unethical people for who no amount of wealth or power ever seems to be enough for. It is absurd.

Also, theft that "looks bad" also does literally nothing to justify or excuse the act of stealing. It is still theft, just as much.

Your whole argument amounts to nothing but excuse-making and rationalization and red herrings and strawman fallacies, just like every other "argument" in favor of theft-based AI I've ever seen over these past few years.

When it comes down to it, you are just making up excuses to rationalize your own desire to cut corners by systematically robbing the creative work and livelihoods of others from them. There can never be a genuine justification for such unethical treatment of other human beings. Never.

Wanting something can cause people to make up contortions and rationalizations to "justify" it but that does not ever justify it in reality.

As I like to say recently: Good is a journey where every step is treated as an end of itself, whereas evil is a journey where only the outcome is treated as mattering. The rationalizations of theft-based AI developers and users all fit the later. 

Joy can be found in any amount of anything, if one has a wholesome and benevolent enough perspective. 

Thus there can never be real justification for harming others for the sake of needless "gains".

One square mile of forest holds more true wealth than any wealthy person's wallet ever can.

Theft-based AI users are thus accomplishing nothing but inflicting suffering upon others, just like any other rationalized evil throughout human history, whether it be the Trail of Tears or (now) theft-based AI.

Goodnight...

I do not want to hear a reply of any kind if it contains even one whiff of rationalization of theft-based AI.

I may block any such respondent next time, potentially, but not this time. This kind of stuff ruins people's lives. 

One cannot be certain of what is or isn't AI, but that never justifies defeatism. 

There is never a good reason to hold the door open for evil.

From what I've seen, there seems to be some danger in releasing an overly early prototype in that it may create a lasting premature negative impression.

If someone plays an early prototype and gets the impression it is boring or not extensive enough then they may not return later, even when it releases.

No matter how much players say they understand that a project is incomplete and that that fact won't bias them against it, much of human psychology is subconscious and many/most of them will likely still be heavily influenced by their impression of the prototype anyway.

Audiences of game developers (such as on forums) are more likely to be forgiving of incomplete projects, but that is a very different audience from non-dev gamers.

So, I would say it is probably wisest to wait until the game starts "feeling good" before you release a prototype, at least.

Also, some devs use smaller communities (like Itch) as a prototyping and testing ground and then only later release the main product elsewhere (like Steam), to keep the potential spread of bad impressions more controlled until the time is right, though that strategy seems likely to inevitably have some risks as well of course.

Being able to see which games and assets packs are using AI would indeed be nice. So, I personally am heartened by the fact that the mods/admins have added that check field and hope it'll be easy to filter out all AI-tagged results! 😁

I am only interested in supporting human creators and among them only those who do not employ any automated means of plagiarizing the work of other human beings whatsoever. I have a zero tolerance opinion of it. I don't want even one single grain of sand of the games and assets I support and buy to have ever been touched by any generative AI. It is already hard enough to get a viable market even without the prospect of being drowned out by mass-produced/automatically-stolen AI slop. It seems to me to be essentially an elaborate copyright laundering scheme disguised as an "AI" tech advancement, mostly. The rhetoric of it being "higher level intelligence" used by AI advocates has long seemed questionable to me and I suspect it to be a distraction tactic to focus attention away from the real biggest issue: systematic theft that in effect unwillingly enslaves the labor of the rest of humanity to the few companies and people in control of these AI systems.

The main difference between AI-generated images that closely resemble well-known IPs (such as Mario, for example) and images that don't appears to most likely be that the images that aren't clearly of extremely well-known IPs seem to be likely based largely on artists who are simply too little-known for many people to recognize the very close (often near verbatim) nature of the imagery. It could easily be the case that almost all of the AI-generated images of the big LLM models are plainly plagiarized in this sense.

For example, I myself remember being shocked seeing an "original" AI generated image that looked almost 100% identical to a painting someone I sat in the same classroom with in college made long ago! The models scrap lots of old art like that. People seriously underestimate how huge a proportion of AI generated results are so close in resemblance to copyrighted material that they could very easily be sued for it in the event that the right person becomes aware of it. 

So yes, the mods/admins of this site are indeed wise to cover the legally dangerous prospect of hosting any of this kind of material.

It is very legally unsafe to use any web data scrapping based AI-generated content as anything other than a passing curiosity that you make sure never to redistribute in any form, in whole or in part. The fact that the big tech investors want people to ignore that doesn't diminish the inherently legally dubious and more importantly ethically bankrupt nature of it.

Anyway though, that's my personal thoughts on the matter, for what it's worth.

I wish you all a wonderful night and the best in your creative endeavors!

Nice work on the horror assets Pizza Doggy, looks good!I

It feels somehow in-between Resident Evil and Silent Hill 2.

I'm not working on any horror games myself currently, but I'll bookmark this for later just in case I do one day.

Congrats on the release!

So, something I've been wondering since I released my first Itch project (a big texture pack) in the past few days, is whether or not we creators should ever upvote our own "Release Announcement" and/or other threads when a vote arrow is available.

Obviously, voting multiple times (with multiple accounts) would be bad. That's not what I'm asking about though.

I noticed that my own "Release Announcement" thread didn't start with my own vote applied (unlike Reddit), and so I left that alone for a few days thinking that we maybe aren't supposed to click that on our own post, but then today I clicked it since most of the other threads seemed to have that vote included already probably. Are we supposed to do that though?

Is there a penalty (or a benefit, for that matter) to voting up just once on our own posts with our own (single, not multiple) account?

Also, if there's no penalty, then wouldn't it be good if Itch defaulted to the creator automatically upvoting their own post by default?

Hello everyone! I've released my first ever asset pack (Undine Ink) a few days ago on Itch!

I was working on these for almost a full month and it took a ton of work, but it is done and released now, currently for just $3 despite being such a large image pack. So, if you are wanting a large quantity of unusually colorful textures as raw material to put into your own work in some form then here you are!

No attribution is even required. The materials are under a generous royalty-free license. The only "unusual" restriction I added is that no "training" (automated plagiarism) based on the images is permitted (and no other plagiarism or misrepresentation either), but other than that you can basically use them as you please in your own projects.

Here's some examples of some great uses for these playful abstract watercolor textures:

• surreal textures for 3D models, modified however suits your purpose
• fun/weird backgrounds for 2D scenes, such as "magic" or "dream" scenes
• fills for graphic design elements such as vector art or user interfaces or GUIs
• inputs for shaders to combine and operate upon to create fascinating and visually striking colorful effects, such as in a "shader graph" or custom shader
• as a component for building interesting "brushes" in some art software, so that you can create more color variation in your strokes (etc) more easily
• a gallery of inspiration for interesting combinations of colors and seeing the ways they sit and blend together, which is useful for ideas for color palettes (regardless of whether you are doing 2D or 3D work or a pixelated or realistic style)!
• website design elements, such as tiling backgrounds for different regions

I hope you some of you get some use out of these!

I put a lot of work into them and I hope to one day see some of them in some form in real projects!

Anyway, thanks for reading and I hope you all have a wonderful day/night/week/etc, as always!

Ok, thanks for the info again.

Hello everyone!

So, I just wanted to talk about something that's been on my mind a bit for these past few years after the advent of the explosion of lots of games that are designed to be imitations of "Vampire Survivors". Vampire Survivors is a great game and did a good job of re-popularizing the genre it represents, but it is far from being one of the originals of the genre.

The earliest game I can recall playing that feels like a "Survivors-like" is actually Crimsonland by Reflexive Entertainment, which released all the way back in 2003 and even then was still more technically impressive (e.g. more polished particle effects) than Vampire Survivors!

It had the same kind of ability selection system as these "Survivors-like" games have where you see 3 to 4 cards each time you level up to pick one from. The most substantive difference is Crimsonland requires you to aim, whereas many/most "Surivors-likes" turn aiming mostly into an idle/passive element in most respects for most abilities. Still though, 90% to 95% of the genre's traits go way back to much earlier games like Crimsonland.

I'm not sure what the actual original game(s) in the genre were, but in my own mind it was/is Crimsonland that popularized it and not Vampire Survivors.

Thus, I personally like to refer to such games as being "Crimsonlikes" instead of as "Survivorslikes".

There's also the term "arena shooters" but I feel like that term is broader and can refer to games that feel too different really.

Anyway, I just wanted to share these thoughts and this piece of history for those not aware of the full scope of the genre and how far back it actually goes (at least to 2003 and probably earlier). That should broaden the range of what games like that you are aware of if you want to try more and it also gives a bit more credit to prior games in the genre, too much of which is ascribed just to recent games like Vampire Survivors.

PS: There are also games that take the Crimsonland like formula and make it less simplistic instead of more simplistic, moving in the opposite direction of the increased simplicity of games like Vampire Survivors. Neon Chrome is one of my favorite examples of that opposite trend, and it essentially plays/feels like a hybrid of Crimsonland and a Roguelike (like Crimsonland in a militarized randomly generated office building essentially). Those kinds of games are fun to explore too (roguelike top-down shooters essentially).

Thanks Lost Soul! I appreciate the sentiment and well wishes! 😄

Hello everyone! 

It is good to see so many people here earnestly following their hearts and pursing their creative whims and dreams so authentically!

I am WraithGlade, an ex-AAA game developer who originally got into the game industry right out of college after much effort and good fortune only to have what I thought would be my big break in life turn into one of the worst times in my life due to toxic office politics and difficulties in adjusting to that even despite much effort. I got along well with most everyone there (as usual for me anywhere), but it only takes a few people and/or bad circumstances to make for a bad environment, especially for use sensitive creative types. 

I don't really want to talk about that job though. It was also about a decade ago (a long time and I want to move on). Suffice to say, a combination of (1) the residual effects of that toxicity at what I had thought would be my dream job crushed much of my creative spirit and (2) my own personal counterproductively overbearing tendencies towards perfectionism and analysis paralysis and second guessing things (especially language and tool choices) together have led me to struggle with a miserable creative mental block that has lasted me about a decade, preventing me from actually making games despite it being the central desire of my life for almost my whole life (I'm in my 30s) and something I've sacrificed a lot for and invested a lot of time and expenses in. I've spent literally years just endless making rationalizations for endlessly messing around with obscure languages and tools and reading tons of programming tutorial books endlessly month after month and yet not doing hardly anything real.

I am recently trying to make a big push to finally overcome those mental blocks and fulfill my potential and life responsibilities better!

I feel like I have been waiting a whole decade for my life to even begin, and that has been more frustrating than I can even ever find words to describe. Years ago, I sacrificed essentially all other aspects of my life in anticipation of game dev, yet it blew up in my face instead due to the AAA job and I want more than anything to finally be able to move on from that and start living again. I went from graduating near the top of my class and being hired at a higher position than I applied for at the AAA job (because they were so impressed in the interview) to being unable to function creatively at all with respect to game dev for most of the past whole decade.

I am essentially "your friendly neighborhood traumatized AAA game developer" in a nutshell.

I wish for all of you a much better game dev journey than the painful one that I have walked.

Feel free to say hi or ask a question if you want to know a bit more about something in game dev and I may be able to answer. I am rusty and partially creatively dysfunctional, but I still have learned a lot over the years and I want other people not have to suffer as I did and hence it is important to me to be supportive of other people.

Likewise, I hope that when I am finally able to overcome my creative mental block and release a real project that the good people of Itch will prove to be a wholesome community to share that with so that I can at long last mend the bad mental associations that have loomed over my mind since the dark times of my experiences in AAA and of my resignation from there and the myriad stresses since then.

Most importantly though, as always, I am wishing all here a wonderful creative journey and equally wonderful lives.

May brighter horizons and sustainable creativity await us all!

Thank you for reading and have a great day/night. 

(PS: Sorry if I am long-winded. I am notably verbose in my natural speech pattern.)

Those are all good and thoughtful points as well!

Looks like wonderful 3D graphics for the models and particle effects! 

You must have put a lot of effort into it and it really shows that you have strong game dev skills.

I've added it to my Steam wishlist and may check it out when I have the time, though I am (as always) swamped with tons of things I intend to do (as a fellow aspiring creative person and software and game developer) and I already own probably a dozen more games of this genre (i.e. games like Crimsonland as one of the oldest examples, or Vampire Survivors as a more relatively recent example that helped popularize the genre again).

Anyway, congratulations on such well-done creative work and have a great day/night!

Your pixel art really captures that Game Boy aesthetic and mood and in particular feels most like Pokemon Red/Blue art to me personally.

I'm not planning on a pixel art aesthetic for my next project, but I will try to keep this in mind in case I ever do.

Good work! It must have taken a while to learn to get that good at emulating classic minimalistic pixel art style!

Yeah, that's a good perspective and an important confounding factor to be aware of, redonihunter.

It is easy to think that something "isn't working" or is "unpredictable" when in reality the sample size may be too small or too filled with noisy data. Of course, even knowing that is the case and being alert for it, it can still be hard sometimes to not take it to heart to some extent since that is human nature. I have experienced those kinds of feelings myself before, especially given the nature of the modern internet, which all too often feels arbitrary.

I've not posted a project on Itch yet myself (though I plan to soon), but to the original poster I'd say to not put much weight in such experiences when there's not much data, as redonihunter said, but like the other respondents mentioned I would also say that the most likely factor for why there was a large disparity (if I had to guess anyway, without enough data) is because of the artwork of a displayed image being more viscerally interesting.

For example, when I clicked on your (the original poster's) account and checked out your creations I immediately clicked on the snow-themed game because it was the most visually and/or thematically compelling in the thumbnail images. The game is indeed quite simple though, and that makes me wonder if it could be the really quickly produced one (~3 hr) you were talking about. So, that's at least one more data point for you, if that helps.

In any case, I am wishing you all the best in your creative efforts on here and indeed the same to all of us.

Have a good day/night!

Thanks for the info and your efforts.

I tried it again today and it does indeed seem to be working now. Good job fixing it!

----

Unimportant side-note:

Is it possible that there was previously a downloadable version that I tried to use that may have been broken because it thus wasn't on the proper web platform? 

I can't remember if that was the case when I tried it (i.e. if I tried a downloaded version or not). I know that games do vary on whether they provide downloadable versions.

Thanks for the info. That makes sense. No worries. Anyway, have a great day/night/etc!

When I tried to run the game, all that happened was the following error message was printed on a plain white background:

Crash | Uncaught ReferenceError: Phaser is not defined

I'm guessing the game requires the Phaser engine's runtime to run, which users who've never worked with that engine are unlikely to have installed.

I noticed this game requires ~700 MB of space despite being a text adventure.

I almost downloaded it but then decided it would be wiser to avoid it, owing to the fact that such a huge install for a text game has a high chance of potentially having something sketchy in it, such as malware.

Another possibility is that your game contains huge amounts of uncompressed audio files. If so, have you considered using MP3 (for lossy audio compression) or at least FLAC (for lossless audio compression)?

It could also be the case that you've built the game on a very bloated engine or library or language runtime.

In any case though, my point is that the size of this text game is so huge that it gives users a lot of reason to hesitate downloading it. You could expand you audience a lot (potentially) by fixing that.

Cool, thanks for the info. 😎

This is a great concept and is fun to play too! Many game jam games don't manage to be fun, but this one does and is also a fresh concept, so that's good to see.

Also, I'm curious: What is a "molasses jam"? Is that a slower-paced game jam perhaps?

Cool, good to hear. 😎

The current build of your game (as of 2024-09-18) may be broken. I received the following error message when I tried to run it:

Error
The following features required to run Godot projects on the Web are missing:
Cross Origin Isolation - Check web server configuration (send correct headers)
SharedArrayBuffer - Check web server configuration (send correct headers)

This is an interesting combination of mechanisms and it fits together quite nicely! 😎🎯

Cool, thanks for the update. I like your work. 🙂

This game has great horror atmosphere, pixelated textures, low poly assets, and sound effects. YouDoYouBuddy consistently puts out good stuff. I especially liked his Lead Haul game, which has a similar Wolfeinstein3D like level layout but is way more action oriented than Ner is.

My only real complaint is that pressing the escape key exits the game instantly and there is no saved game system, so trying to pause or open a menu can easily lose all progress.

PS YouDoYouBuddy: Which of the 3D extensions for Love are you using to make these? One of the active ones such as groverburger's 3D engine (g3d), Menori, or 3DreamEngine; or perhaps something homemade or lesser known?

This seems a nice little Resident Evil style game. The atmosphere is good.

The lack of a saved game was the biggest problem though. I quit temporarily when I finished the sewers, hoping the game would save, but lost everything instead.

It also felt like health potions were far more abundant than necessary. I only got hit once the entire time I was playing, and that was solely from clumsiness.

The game was fun while it lasted, though it needs saved games and additional balancing for better gameplay tension.

Anyway though, good job!

This is a cool concept. I just downloaded the game and played through several levels and I like how you've combined some of the mechanics in interesting ways (such as how the boxes and coins interact with each other).

Unfortunately, my project has ended up incomplete. It was a decent exercise at least, and enough to indicate I could do it in the future, but it turns out I didn't plan well enough. 

I'm still glad I participated. It helped shake off some of my analysis paralysis problems partially. I won't be posting the incomplete project though, because I might want to save the idea for a later project and because people's time is better spent on projects that are more complete. I don't want to take away time from more worthy entrants. I also may reuse the idea. I messed up this time, so oh well. I'll be more careful in the future.

Several problems account for most of the reason why my project got derailed:

(1) I was trying to do physics-based pathfinding. I came to the 7DRL with a script for part of my physics stuff already partially done, thinking I wouldn't need to do much more to make it work for my plans, but I was quite wrong. Physics-based pathing is hard, and I even knew that from past experience doing it, but I still miscalculated regardless. I ended up spending most of my work just trying to get the physics based movement for the AI to work and it still didn't end up looking acceptable even despite sinking most of my time in it.

(2) For the past few years I've suffered from terrible insomnia and analysis paralysis problems and have had a mental block on game dev that has been frustrating me a lot. For 3 of the 7 days I was so tired from poor sleep that I was already struggling not to fall asleep by 1:00pm in the day. These 3 days ended up with me accomplishing almost nothing on them. I need to take my health more seriously going forward...

(3) I was also struggling with some negative feelings from working in a toxic AAA game dev environment years ago that I've had a really hard time overcoming in recent years. Before that time, I used to be much more free flowing and productive in game dev work, but since then I've struggled with freezing up and having negative associations with game dev that make it harder for me to focus sometimes. Me joining this event was partly just because I love roguelikes so much and partly because I wanted to try to overcome my mental blocks on game dev work. I've at least made partial progress in that respect, so I'll call that a win overall.

Oh, and I did indeed get a simple random map generator working, and also had some potentially interesting ideas I wanted to try with it, but ended up not having time to flesh it out and polish it up to anything near what I had in mind. I also didn't have time for the game mechanics either. Physics ate up all my time.

I'm going to not mention the specific of my game design idea more than I already have, since I may use it again in the future (with better preparation).

I apologize for the incomplete project.

Also, in hindsight I should have posted my announcement elsewhere than in this general discussion section, but I wasn't sure what I wanted to call the project yet so I didn't want to put it with the others until then.

Anyway though, it was a good exercise, even if incomplete.

Congratulations to all the other participants for their projects! I hope everyone had a good time and had better planning than me. This community is always really great at producing some interesting things, and I've always been happy to have found the community.

Next thing in my plans: I'm going to stop procrastinating about my insomnia problems, since it clearly is damaging my productivity too much.

Thanks for reading. Have a great weekend and upcoming week everyone.

I wanted to post that I've officially started work on my project as of this moment (2020-02-29 11:30 am Saturday, Eastern Standard Time, United States), so that the start time is visible publicly for proper accountability.

It appears highly likely that this isn't actually necessary, since most participants appear to not be doing so. I figured I'd do it anyway though.

This will be my first year actually participating, although I've wanted to for years and I'm also a big fan of the Roguelike Radio podcast etc.

I'll be doing a real-time (not turn based) Unity project, although I know this is a riskier choice, but I feel like being experimental in these regards. I have a general idea of what I'm going for but I will be bringing very little existing assets and only a small amount of code from before the official 7 day challenge window. So, maybe 80%+ of the work will be purely from these 7 days. Hopefully that won't come back to bite me, but I think it should go fine. My art asset requirements aren't that much.

What I already have pre-made partly:

- some code for physics based movement that I wrote a while back

- some code for a basic PCG grid setup that I may (or may not) use to create the game

- a small bunch of sound effect audio clips that I've already prepared to be usable to fill in some basic sounds

- a very rough idea of what kind of game I'm going to make, although still a lot left to be defined

Anyway, best of luck to everyone on your projects. Happy coding/art/design/etc everyone!

I'm interested to see what people come up with. There's always some really interesting ones.

Rogue-lites are allowed. Many of them have been submitted in previous years, some even ranking highly. You have a higher chance of scoring low on "roguelikeness" if you do though, which is one of the rating categories.