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1.3.2 Feedback

A topic by L1pE created Dec 02, 2021 Views: 259 Replies: 5
Viewing posts 1 to 3

Thanks for making a Linux version of the game, I played through all that is available in demo, here are my thoughts.

The black text on dark background in the merc control UI buttons lacks constrast, the transparent backgrounds can cause readability problems too depending on what's behind them. "Range" text can sometimes blend in with the background, an outline would help. The tutorial speech bubbles that point to in-world element stay fixed and move with the camera. I would like to be able to see the AP number on tiles from behind walls, so I don't have to turn the camera just to see that. On that note, I think it'd be better if instead the remaining APs were shown on the tile instead of AP cost, so some of the math is already done (Xenonauts is a game that does it this way). A cover indicator, using a similar system to the UI element that shows much of a target is visible would help to remove some ambiguity from some cover elements.

It's cool how the hearing gets reduced when you take a shot.

The beginning 1v1s were not very interesting at all, there's not many tactical options available then, and it puts too much importance on an individual unit, allowing cases with no recourse such as what happened to me where I got hit by a grenade, lost all APs, then got stun locked by pistol shots for the next 5 turns before dying. In fact I think the number of units you can have in this game is very low, having just 2 is fine for the very first tutorial battle, but by the end I only had 3 units, I believe 4 should be the minimum, with the possibility to get more.

It feels very strange to never need to reload nor have to worry about spare ammo in this kind of game, resource management is usually a key element to this style of game.

The AI can make some questionable grenade throws, had a case where it tried to throw a nade at one of my units, but it bounced off a nearby wall and killed another enemy instead.


I hate having to drag from a merc to a tile to move, you should just be able to select a merc and then click a tile. I wish I could control the camera with WASD, changeable keybinds in general is always good to have too. I noticed right click also does nothing currently, maybe make that turn the merc instead by default, or make it change fire mode. I don't see why there needs to separate keys and UI buttons for standing and crouching, just make it a toggle.

Diagonal movement costs the same, that's ~41% more distance covered per tile for no extra AP cost, other tactical turn based games often make it cost 50% more AP, which is a close enough adjustment.

Footsteps sound quite loud and weird.

The different death animations are quite good, I liked how specific they get, like with the one where they hit their back against a wall and then fall over.

It's kinda weird how when the roof disappears from a building when you get close the lighting acts like it's physically gone, only casting shadows from the walls, perhaps keep the roof shadows but add some interior lights.

It's also weird how it seems you don't need visibility of windows and such to get roofs to disappear.

I had a case where a building way across the map had its roof removed.


And another where I got close to one building and it also removed the roof of one that was farther away.



I like how there's many factions that are not friendly with each other, and how you can take advantage of that while they're distracted with each other in some big fights.

I noticed there's a lack of usable doors.

I had weapons sometimes increase accuracy after taking a shot, I find that strange.

There really should be vaulting through windows, and similar low objects.

It's sometimes difficult to tell what is visible to a merc and what isn't, maybe have the tiles that aren't visible be darkened, the game already has some visibility UI element with the interrupts.

I feel this game could benefit from a suppression mechanic, for more tactical options with burst and auto fire. This could give a reason to have a free aim option too, perhaps that's another thing right click could be set to do.

I noticed attacks don't trigger interrupts, but maybe they should. I also had an enemy walk diagonally in between two of the interrupt trigger tiles, which means there's basically dead zones when you're watching an area at an angle with only the first level of interrupt skill. There was one case where I moved one unit northeast, and it triggered an interrupt, but the enemy targeted an unit further south I had already moved previously instead.


It's interesting how there's both a purchase system and a "learn as you do" system for gaining skill points.

Consider making it so you can safely shoot over your own units if they're adjacent and crouched, feels a bit jank to have to move around them in those situations (that's another thing Xenonauts does), maybe you could make so if you shoot over an unit this way they also have their hearing reduced as if they've taken a shot.

The "close to wall" animation seems to override the "in interrupt mode" animation.

I noticed there's different "classes", like "scout" and "rifleman", what's the difference? I don't think the game explained it.

I had one case where I dropped a nade so another one of my units could pick it up the next turn, but then a Ben Dabi unit that was previously idling in a corner with little HP, walked up to it, stole it, and proceed to idle in the middle of a doorway blocking my path as well for the next couple turns, it decided to move and do some shooting after.

I'm a fan of shotguns but this game has none, hope some will be added in the future.

The enemy AI is... Not very good, even on very hard, they have a tendency to bunch up in the middle of roads and shoot without seeking cover, rush where I have units waiting for them, sometimes walk back and forth and do nothing else as if they're indecisive, or, when retreating, all run simultaneously to the same wall in the map, and line up side by side in an easily flankable position.



Sometimes some weird shadows appear on the top left of the screen depending on the camera position.


There should be a way to plot a path through the overworld.

Developer

Hi L1pE,

Thanks very much for your feedback and glad you liked the Linux version, below is my reply:

> The black text on dark background in the merc control UI buttons lacks constrast, the transparent backgrounds can cause readability problems too depending on what's behind them. "Range" text can sometimes blend in with the background, an outline would help. 

Ok, I can fix that.

> The tutorial speech bubbles that point to in-world element stay fixed and move with the camera. 

yeah, that only happens when you move camera by keyboard. I can fix it so it closes the help when the camera moves.

> I would like to be able to see the AP number on tiles from behind walls, so I don't have to turn the camera just to see that. 

yeah, I can do that.

> On that note, I think it'd be better if instead the remaining APs were shown on the tile instead of AP cost, so some of the math is already done (Xenonauts is a game that does it this way). 

Can do.

A cover indicator, using a similar system to the UI element that shows much of a target is visible would help to remove some ambiguity from some cover elements.

Sorry, I don't really understand what you mean.

> It's cool how the hearing gets reduced when you take a shot.

Yes, it's a realistic feature, but maybe a bit too "subtle"

> The beginning 1v1s were not very interesting at all, there's not many tactical options available then, and it puts too much importance on an individual unit, allowing cases with no recourse such as what happened to me where I got hit by a grenade, lost all APs, then got stun locked by pistol shots for the next 5 turns before dying. In fact I think the number of units you can have in this game is very low, having just 2 is fine for the very first tutorial battle, but by the end I only had 3 units, I believe 4 should be the minimum, with the possibility to get more.

There are a maximum of 5 soldiers in the squad. Zanata and Leonidas only join your squad after you have completed quests. Leonidas is only in the full version of the game. The initial battles have to be easy to allow beginners to learn how to play the game.

> It feels very strange to never need to reload nor have to worry about spare ammo in this kind of game, resource management is usually a key element to this style of game.

I'm not sure if ammo adds anything tactically interesting to the game. All it means is that the player to do extra work (clicking a reload button every few shots). However, I will consider adding it as a feature, but other features have higher priority.

> The AI can make some questionable grenade throws, had a case where it tried to throw a nade at one of my units, but it bounced off a nearby wall and killed another enemy instead.

In the current version the enemy throws sometimes with bad accuracy. In the new version they will always throw with good accuracy. Having said that grenade throws are never 100% accurate. If you are throwing over the edge of a wall without much clearance, there's a chance that it might bounce back off the wall. Also, in new version there will be grenade throw skill, which increases the range of throwing.

> I hate having to drag from a merc to a tile to move, you should just be able to select a merc and then click a tile. 

yeah, other people have commented about that. I will consider changing it, but it means changing all mouse buttons, because left mouse is being used for panning at the moment.

> I wish I could control the camera with WASD, changeable keybinds in general is always good to have too. 

I could add an option for that.

> I noticed right click also does nothing currently, maybe make that turn the merc instead by default, or make it change fire mode. I don't see why there needs to separate keys and UI buttons for standing and crouching, just make it a toggle.

If I change movement to use the left mouse button, then I probably have to use the right button for panning. A single UI button for posture change is confusing, because it's not clear if pressed means kneeling or standing, but I could use a single keyboard key to toggle posture alright.

> Diagonal movement costs the same, that's ~41% more distance covered per tile for no extra AP cost, other tactical turn based games often make it cost 50% more AP, which is a close enough adjustment.

I don't think that feature would make the game more interesting to play, just more complicated. Just because other games do it, does not mean it's good. 

> Footsteps sound quite loud and weird.

the sound is heard from the perspective of the currently selected merc, so his own footsteps will sound loud. I don't know what you mean by "weird"

> The different death animations are quite good, I liked how specific they get, like with the one where they hit their back against a wall and then fall over.

glad you like them ;)

> It's kinda weird how when the roof disappears from a building when you get close the lighting acts like it's physically gone, only casting shadows from the walls, perhaps keep the roof shadows but add some interior lights.

I could leave the roof shadow, but unfortunately the renderer can only handle one light

>It's also weird how it seems you don't need visibility of windows and such to get roofs to disappear. I had a case where a building way across the map had its roof removed. And another where I got close to one building and it also removed the roof of one that was farther away.

the roof disappears if your soldier gets close to the building, or if he spots an enemy inside the building. Maybe that's what happened.

> I like how there's many factions that are not friendly with each other, and how you can take advantage of that while they're distracted with each other in some big fights.

Yeah, I made it so there would be a lot of multi-fraction battles to make it more interesting 

> I noticed there's a lack of usable doors.

That's a feature of the next version. I am adding procedurally generated buildings and doors and window shutters that can be opened and closed

> I had weapons sometimes increase accuracy after taking a shot, I find that strange.

Yes, the second time you shoot at the same target the accuracy increases

> There really should be vaulting through windows, and similar low objects.

that would be a feature that I would have to leave for a future version.

> It's sometimes difficult to tell what is visible to a merc and what isn't, maybe have the tiles that aren't visible be darkened, the game already has some visibility UI element with the interrupts.

That's probably only interesting to advanced players? I will think about adding it in a future version

> I feel this game could benefit from a suppression mechanic, for more tactical options with burst and auto fire. This could give a reason to have a free aim option too, perhaps that's another thing right click could be set to do.

I could add suppression in future version. I already tried the free aim and it's not good. It breaks the whole logic of the game.

> I noticed attacks don't trigger interrupts, but maybe they should. 

You mean shooting doesn't trigger an interrupt? That is correct, only movement triggers it. 

> I also had an enemy walk diagonally in between two of the interrupt trigger tiles, which means there's basically dead zones when you're watching an area at an angle with only the first level of interrupt skill. 

Well, first level interrupt is limited, otherwise there would be no point in upgrading to second level.

> There was one case where I moved one unit northeast, and it triggered an interrupt, but the enemy targeted an unit further south I had already moved previously instead.

You mean it targeted a different soldier than the one that moved? Yes, the code is set to do that, but maybe I should change that.

> It's interesting how there's both a purchase system and a "learn as you do" system for gaining skill points.

I don't know what you mean by that.

> Consider making it so you can safely shoot over your own units if they're adjacent and crouched, feels a bit jank to have to move around them in those situations (that's another thing Xenonauts does), maybe you could make so if you shoot over an unit this way they also have their hearing reduced as if they've taken a shot.

I could do that, but I would need some type of indicator to show that the soldier is temporarily deafened.

>The "close to wall" animation seems to override the "in interrupt mode" animation.

Yes, so that the gun does not pass through the wall.

> I noticed there's different "classes", like "scout" and "rifleman", what's the difference? I don't think the game explained it.

Their abilities upgrade at different rates. For instance, the scout increases action points faster, while sniper increases accuracy faster.

> I had one case where I dropped a nade so another one of my units could pick it up the next turn, but then a Ben Dabi unit that was previously idling in a corner with little HP, walked up to it, stole it, and proceed to idle in the middle of a doorway blocking my path as well for the next couple turns, it decided to move and do some shooting after.

Yep, they can do that. I might add a feature, so they move out of your way if they are blocking a doorway.

> I'm a fan of shotguns but this game has none, hope some will be added in the future.

Yeah, I will think about adding them, but other features have higher priority (for instance grenade launchers)

> The enemy AI is... Not very good, even on very hard, they have a tendency to bunch up in the middle of roads and shoot without seeking cover, rush where I have units waiting for them, sometimes walk back and forth and do nothing else as if they're indecisive

They do look for cover. The AI moves in range to the best target, fires and then takes cover, if there is any about. Obviously, it can't take cover if there is no cover about. They may do nothing if they don't have enough APs to do anything. Remember, if they have been hit many times they can lose a lot of APs. 

> when retreating, all run simultaneously to the same wall in the map, and line up side by side in an easily flankable position.

You might have got lucky because in that particular scene it was easy to flank, but it's not always the case. Anyway, in the next version I will make AI take positions in buildings to cover the retreat. Also, I will make some enemy make wide flanking movements.

> Sometimes some weird shadows appear on the top left of the screen depending on the camera position.

This will be fixed in the next version. Shadows have been improved.

> There should be a way to plot a path through the overworld.

Eventually, the "overworld" will be changed completely, (see this post: https://itch.io/t/1355801/new-strategic-design), so not really worth the bother.


By the way, if you want to try  the full version of the game send me an email to edwelch@astronautz.com and I will send you a link to download it.

>Sorry, I don't really understand what you mean.

This is the UI element I mean:



I feel  something similar could be used as a cover indicator when you put your cursor near cover elements (or already have an unit adjacent to cover), cause sometimes I'm unsure how good a certain piece of cover is since their looks can vary quite a bit. On that note, I forgot to mention before, but I feel you should be able to shoot through windows while crouched, they just don't look tall enough that standing up should be necessary.

>The initial battles have to be easy to allow beginners to learn how to play the game.

That's fair enough, but I don't think it's necessary for them to be 1vs1 to be easy, and with 1vs1 there's still the problem that mistakes are much more unforgiving, and if you get your one unit stun locked there's nothing else you can do but just wait for him to die.

>I'm not sure if ammo adds anything tactically interesting to the game. All it means is that the player to do extra work (clicking a reload button every few shots). However, I will consider adding it as a feature, but other features have higher priority.

I think you're selling such a feature short, I believe having to reload and limited ammo gives more depth to weapons, having to make sure you'll have enough ammo for a battle, making you consider if you will be able to reload when you need to without risking yourself too much, being able take advantage of the enemies having to reload in certain situations, allowing more differentiation between weapons with different mag capacities and reload AP costs, maybe even having to swap to a secondary if reloading is gonna be too costly and you need to shoot now, different ammo types giving you more reason to use different weapons depending on availability of ammo and whether it's worth using a harder to come by ammo instead of a more common one, rather than just obsoleting a weapon instantly cause you got one with better stats, maybe you will have to pick up some ammo off the ground if you run low, etc.

>I don't think that feature would make the game more interesting to play, just more complicated. Just because other games do it, does not mean it's good.

Well, I don't mean to say you should do it just because other games do, but rather show an example of a fairly simple and common solution to this problem, since diagonals give considerably more distance and therefore give more value to moving in a diagonal if the cost is the same, +50% AP cost is easy to keep track of and good enough approximation to the real difference. Without accounting for the difference moving in a diagonal feels like a constant exploit IMO. Makes me think of those glitches in some old games that allow you to move faster in a diagonal.

>the sound is heard from the perspective of the currently selected merc, so his own footsteps will sound loud. I don't know what you mean by "weird"

Well, they sound kinda muffled and low quality.

>the roof disappears if your soldier gets close to the building, or if he spots an enemy inside the building. Maybe that's what happened.

That's probably what happened the second time I had it happen then, but the first time I had barely gotten into the map and didn't even have visual range into the building that was revealed.

>Well, first level interrupt is limited, otherwise there would be no point in upgrading to second level.

Yea, but it feels like it makes the first interrupt level disproportionally worse compared to later ones, example:

As far as I've observed, enemies can diagonally move through the marked red lines without triggering an interrupt, and these are inconsistent since you don't have any dead zones if you aim straight north, south, east or west. The other levels don't have these dead zones (aside from having your field of view limited by cover). I'm not sure how you could solve this though, other than having interrupt be able to trigger "in-between" tiles.

>You mean it targeted a different soldier than the one that moved? Yes, the code is set to do that, but maybe I should change that.

I see, that wasn't very clear to me since AFAIK the player units can't do that.

>I don't know what you mean by that.

I'm talking about how you can also automatically increase a skill by using it enough, which for me happened when one unit increased his auto skill after a battle, I had previously thought you had to always manually spend skill points. I think it's cool.

>Yep, they can do that. I might add a feature, so they move out of your way if they are blocking a doorway.

That would be good too, but my main issue with that case was with how my grenade was stolen, perhaps you could make it so they won't try to take items dropped by player units for one turn.

>They do look for cover. The AI moves in range to the best target, fires and then takes cover, if there is any about. Obviously, it can't take cover if there is no cover about. They may do nothing if they don't have enough APs to do anything. Remember, if they have been hit many times they can lose a lot of APs.

I don't mean to say they always do exactly what I had said, but I find they do it way too often. In the screenshot example only a few of them got shot, and there was cover they could've used around them, a few did take cover eventually, but most of the time they barely moved while taking shots, and sat around around each other in the open, with the occasional lone unit rush, until they decided to retreat.

>Eventually, the "overworld" will be changed completely, (see this post: https://itch.io/t/1355801/new-strategic-design), so not really worth the bother.

Nice, that does look like a big improvement.

Also, I sent you an e-mail.

Developer

> I feel something similar could be used as a cover indicator when you put your cursor near cover elements (or already have an unit adjacent to cover), cause sometimes I'm unsure how good a certain piece of cover is since their looks can vary quite a bit. 

Ok, I will think about adding such a feature in the future

>On that note, I forgot to mention before, but I feel you should be able to shoot through windows while crouched, they just don't look tall enough that standing up should be necessary.

Soldiers cannot shoot in any case where that would cause the arms to pass through solid objects, like this:


In that case the "can't aim" reticle is shown:


that's why they have to stand up (unless the window ledge is very low)

> That's fair enough, but I don't think it's necessary for them to be 1vs1 to be easy, and with 1vs1 there's still the problem that mistakes are much more unforgiving, and if you get your one unit stun locked there's nothing else you can do but just wait for him to die.

I think you are talking about a case where your soldier was hit by a grenade? In that case, I could just prevent enemy throwing grenades in initial battles where the player only has one soldier.

> I think you're selling such a feature short, I believe having to reload and limited ammo gives more depth to weapons, having to make sure you'll have enough ammo for a battle, making you consider if you will be able to reload when you need to without risking yourself too much, being able take advantage of the enemies having to reload in certain situations, allowing more differentiation between weapons with different mag capacities and reload AP costs, maybe even having to swap to a secondary if reloading is gonna be too costly and you need to shoot now, different ammo types giving you more reason to use different weapons depending on availability of ammo and whether it's worth using a harder to come by ammo instead of a more common one, rather than just obsoleting a weapon instantly cause you got one with better stats, maybe you will have to pick up some ammo off the ground if you run low, etc.

It always ends up that you have to allow the player access to nearly unlimited ammo, because if ammo runs out then the game becomes unplayable, so it's really doesn't make the game much more interesting. Having said that, I am not against the feature, just that I put it on a lower priority than other features.

> Well, I don't mean to say you should do it just because other games do, but rather show an example of a fairly simple and common solution to this problem, since diagonals give considerably more distance and therefore give more value to moving in a diagonal if the cost is the same, +50% AP cost is easy to keep track of and good enough approximation to the real difference. Without accounting for the difference moving in a diagonal feels like a constant exploit IMO. Makes me think of those glitches in some old games that allow you to move faster in a diagonal.

I haven't come across any situation where it causes a problem

>the sound is heard from the perspective of the currently selected merc, so his own footsteps will sound loud. I don't know what you mean by "weird"

> Well, they sound kinda muffled and low quality.

Ok, I will look into it

>the roof disappears if your soldier gets close to the building, or if he spots an enemy inside the building. Maybe that's what happened.

> That's probably what happened the second time I had it happen then, but the first time I had barely gotten into the map and didn't even have visual range into the building that was revealed.

I might be a bug. I will look into it

> As far as I've observed, enemies can diagonally move through the marked red lines without triggering an interrupt, and these are inconsistent since you don't have any dead zones if you aim straight north, south, east or west. The other levels don't have these dead zones (aside from having your field of view limited by cover). I'm not sure how you could solve this though, other than having interrupt be able to trigger "in-between" tiles.

I could just make interrupt wider, when it's diagonal

>You mean it targeted a different soldier than the one that moved? Yes, the code is set to do that, but maybe I should change that.

> I see, that wasn't very clear to me since AFAIK the player units can't do that.

Yeah, it's more logical that only the soldier that moves it targeted, so I will change that.

> I'm talking about how you can also automatically increase a skill by using it enough, which for me happened when one unit increased his auto skill after a battle, I had previously thought you had to always manually spend skill points. I think it's cool.

glad you like it ;)

> That would be good too, but my main issue with that case was with how my grenade was stolen, perhaps you could make it so they won't try to take items dropped by player units for one turn.

I can do that.

> I don't mean to say they always do exactly what I had said, but I find they do it way too often. In the screenshot example only a few of them got shot, and there was cover they could've used around them, a few did take cover eventually, but most of the time they barely moved while taking shots, and sat around around each other in the open, with the occasional lone unit rush, until they decided to retreat.

Fair enough. I am thinking about adding a better "seek cover" behaviour for the AI.

Hello everyone :-)

In fact I think the number of units you can have in this game is very low, having just 2 is fine for the very first tutorial battle, but by the end I only had 3 units, I believe 4 should be the minimum, with the possibility to get more.
-> Same here. I know you like the idea of maximum 4 or 5 units, Ed. But I agree that there could be a greater tactical variety with more units, maybe 8 to 10. This would also give the option to just keep on playing if one of your soldiers dies. Now you have to restart the battle every time a soldier dies. Maybe you could give it a try in one of the future releases. 

The enemy AI is... Not very good, even on very hard, they have a tendency to bunch up in the middle of roads and shoot without seeking cover, rush where I have units waiting for them, sometimes walk back and forth and do nothing else as if they're indecisive
-> I agree. AI is very challenging when taking good cover and when it sticks to a single strategy with all available forces. Splitting up into groups with different tactics (one group attacking, one group camping etc.) makes the AI very weak. I'm looking forward to see the changes in AI behaviour, especially when retreating.

Developer

Same here. I know you like the idea of maximum 4 or 5 units, Ed. But I agree that there could be a greater tactical variety with more units, maybe 8 to 10. This would also give the option to just keep on playing if one of your soldiers dies. Now you have to restart the battle every time a soldier dies. Maybe you could give it a try in one of the future releases. 

I will add it to the list of features to add new mercs, but there is a lot of artwork involved in creating each new character.

This would also give the option to just keep on playing if one of your soldiers dies. Now you have to restart the battle every time a soldier dies. 

Except, for all the work that you did leveling up the merc's up stats is lost, maybe replaying the battle is the better option ;)

I agree. AI is very challenging when taking good cover and when it sticks to a single strategy with all available forces. Splitting up into groups with different tactics (one group attacking, one group camping etc.) makes the AI very weak. I'm looking forward to see the changes in AI behaviour, especially when retreating.

As I said, I am thinking about adding a better "find cover" behaviour for the AI.