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Allowing Campanies to completely take away purchased games is bad for Itch (re Oxenfree/Netflix) Locked

A topic by skye0 created 19 days ago Views: 671 Replies: 30
This topic was locked by No Time To Play 8 hours ago

Topic has devolved into unproductive arguing.

Viewing posts 1 to 11
(+7)

Recently Oxenfree/Netflix made the news because they are completely taking away Oxenfree from everyone who purchased it here. On other stores like Steam when a company delists a game anyone who purchased it keeps that game and can still download it later even though it is no longer available for sale.

Allowing companies to wipe away purchases on a whim like this is a really bad look for Itch especially when their primary competitor doesn't. Historically I brought up Itch very positively when discussing game stores but that has somewhat changed and I will likely be mentioning this incident when mentioning Itch going forward. This might feel like a small issue in isolation but knowing your purchases might fade away at any moment really changes things especially when I know I can go and buy it on Steam and not have that happen.

Also to be clear I'm writing this because I'm concerned about this happening on a broader level and the Oxenfree incident is just a good example. It doesn't cause me issues specifically having this game removed from my account here. Now users are in a position where they might be asking themselves "Wait are there other games missing from my library that I might not remember?".

You can already see it damaging Itchs reputation here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1fcivq7/oxenfree_will_be_removed_for_dow...
It's one of the top comments on a trending post on one of the biggest game forums and I'm seeing similar discussion elsewhere.

Anyways sorry this comes off as such a blunt rant post, I just found this pretty concerning and it affects my likelihood to use itch going forward a ton and I like Itch so that makes me sad.
I hope everyone reading this has a lovely week :)

(2 edits) (+2)

While I do not claim to know much about this discussion, as well as believing you have a very valid point, I just want to add an additional information:

While it is true that (normally - not always), platforms with drm (meaning they actually keep your games and you cannot play them without using their services) will keep your access as long as you have  purchased a game before it being removed from the storefront, the very fact that itch.io offers games without drm means that you 'technically' do not need such a thing. You can literally, after you downloaded the games, keep them forever - standalone - to be used, backed up, and - although you are usually not allowed to share them publicy, give them to your close neighborhood friend like in the good old days.

A combination of both would be great of course. I do not know exactly how gog handles it, but they do offer drm-free games you would at least assume can still be accessed from your library if you have already purchased them. In that regard, itch.io does have restrictions to delete projects and accounts if people have already bought your work, so to enable them to redownload the items. But I assume in very specific cases like this one might be, there is not too much the store can do if a readily available file gets removed from the platform. But that is already going into a territory I can only make assumptions, so I will leave it at that.

Also, while I do see a point discussing this (and being aware of it for the future), one does have to acknowledge the fact that this is quite a specific scenario. Not every game franchise will make some legal deals with streaming companies. But it does indeed shed some light into the questions of this being only one example of it being too easy to pull things from buyers without 'fair' reason (legal does not always have to be that), as well as the thought of some sellers/creators not caring too much about the consequences of leaving behind a certain platform/group of their users for debatably justified reasons.

Moderator(+4)

Even so, itch.io normally discourages creators from removing a game completely if it was bought by anyone. They have to contact support and give a good reason why they should be allowed to do it. I don't know if this particular game will be granted special treatment, no matter how famous it is.

(1 edit) (+2)

Thanks for sharing that info, I appreciate and expect itch.io to support us in this matter.

Taking away something we purchased is theft, plain and simple. We will not excuse a thief simply because he stole our car parked on the street rather than from our garage.

Can I save the installer due to how itch.io operates? Yes, of course, but that wasn't my intention when I paid for this game. It was part of the "Bundle for Racial Justice and Equality" and that's how I obtained it. I bet many others of the 814,526 contributors are in the same situation, and unless they have saved the 1,741 items included in the Bundle, we expect to have access to any of those 1,741 items the day we need them. Period.

If the store/dev/pub don't want want to take on that responsibility, they should have considered it before engaging in online sales. It's too late for regrets or asking for magic solutions to make problems dissapear without consequences. What a convenient way to enjoy all the sweet benefits of online sales while neglecting their responsibilities.

Has anyone ever heard of a customer regaining access to all his previous purchases for free again because he forgot to use a strong password (instead of "123456") and someone easily stole his account? Of course not, we understand our responsibilties and we take care of them.

Now, let's flip the situation: Why should we accept this individual taking away our property?

If the developer is playing the smart guy taking away our money, we could easily play the smart guys too seeking out his work without paying. Who ultimately loses more? Reputation worths and respect is a two way street.

(+3)

I was thinking about subscribing to Netflix when WWE comes to it next year but this made me decide that I will never give a single cent to any of their products, but that doesn't mean I won't consume them. You know how it goes, if buying isn't owning..

Exactly my friend. Netflix getting expensive aswell lately 

(+2)

I did not find that part. To the contrary.

https://itch.io/docs/legal/terms#4-publisher-content is quite clear. The publisher can remove the content. Is there maybe a faq that says otherwise? Because the faq I found directed to the tos.

They cannot revoke the license though. However that works out, if you do not have the files because you trusted that in the digital age you could download it from the cloud service where you paid for the game.

From a digital download store perspective it is quite bad to remove (paid) games. I would wish for better and clearer rules about that. Like freezing a version for existing customers and refusing new customers.

Moderator: Are you certain itch.io is fully aware of this crime? See my today's post below: The THIEVES are still working on their plan and itch.io remains completely silent.

Moderator

"Crime?" "Thieves?" Those are strong words. You might want to learn how intellectual property works. And I already said I don't really know.

Being a moderator, and based on your reply, you apparently know more about how intellectual property works. Then tell the term

Moderator(+1)

No, not as a moderator. As a creator. You don't actually buy a game. You buy a license to it. That's how it works. It sucks. Means the rights holders can take it away from you any time. Which can happen, for example, if they no longer have publishing rights. That's unfair to players, but it's how things work in the legal sense, so please don't accuse itch.io of being complicit to a so-called "theft". Instead, make sure you have a copy of the game on your computer, and a backup too. You couldn't do that if it happened on Steam, so who are the thieves here?

(+1)
Means the rights holders can take it away from you any time

Uhm. Actually. No. Not according to Itch terms, if that it refers to the license you were talking about.

Users shall retain a license to this content even after the content is removed from the Service

What they can do, is remove it from the "the Service".

This is not about IP. This is about Itch terms and publishing here and buying things that are in the cloud.

Typically, if you buy a game on Steam, it stays bought and downloadable, even if the developer removes it for various reasons. Even if those reasons are of legal nature, like expired rights to publish. Yeah, that drm stuff also means they can take away games, but the publihser no longer selling the game on Steam is not such a reason.

The problem on Itch is, that while you still have the licence, you no longer can download the files. And this also goes for files that are removed on a whim by the developer/publisher.

(+2)

I don't think that's exactly right.


Yes, you buy a license. But that doesn't mean the rights holder can take the license from you. The license is intangible and permanent. Even if you lose access to the media, technically the license persists. But this isn't a case of people losing their license, as the availability of a download is not "the license". Whether or not this situation is itch's fault, it certainly makes them look bad when every other game store leaves delisted games on user's accounts (since the license can't be revoked, why deny those users access?). Netflix apparently doesn't care about making enemies and itch is an unfortunate victim of that.

Moderator

Actually yes. By default, a software license lasts for as long as it's granted. Only open source licenses are perpetual and non-revocable by design. And if a store, any store, were to keep a game that the publisher can no longer distribute, then it would really be breaking the law.

Yes, the law is bad. (Copyright sucks if you ask me.) But to claim that itch.io somehow has a duty to... what... go against the entire legal system? Another famous organization tried just recently. They're called the Internet Archive. You know how that ended, right?

That is a logical fallacy. Yes, the Internet Archive lost a lawsuit because they violated copyright lawBut that is completely unrelated to how licenses work. And itch.io is not in that situation here either- they have no legal reason why they can't keep distributing content that is being distributed in compliance with the licensing agreement, the licensing agreement grants users a perpetual license, and that license survives termination of the agreement with the publisher so even if the publisher says "Nope, not going to sell it anymore" the user who purchased should still, per the language of the agreement, have access to the content. And perpetual is, shockingly, perpetual, and that's the case of the license agreement here, so the "as long as it's granted" argument is irrelevant.

The only legal shenanigans going on here is that either the studio or the publisher (and with the publisher being Netflix, I know who I suspect more) said basically "Oh you can download it before October 1st, so you still 'have access' even though we're taking it away" but I think that's flimsy and I seriously doubt it would hold up in court- the license doesn't just say have access, it says "to use, reproduce, distribute, display and perform such content as permitted through the functionality of the Service." That seems to be a lot more expansive than the topic at hand.

It's also worth noting that copyright licenses are legally enforceable contracts, and unless those contracts have an explicit term (i.e. "You are granted this contract for the duration of [period of time]") I believe that in most jurisdictions those contracts would be indefinite (again, not a lawyer, but Google doesn't seem to contradict me). If you have a licensing agreement, you have to comply with the listed grounds for termination or you are violating the contract. Even a revocable license typically has specific criteria for its revocation (like materially breaching the contract terms) and can't be revoked without a listed reason unless the contract has "at any time/for any reason" clauses.

Now, having said all that, I'm going to say something that's probably more important. I'm not a lawyer, and I strongly suspect you aren't one either from the tone of your post, but importantly, I'm not associated with the platform in any way, shape, or form. I'm not saying this to win an internet argument, but if you aren't legal counsel to an organization, but are involved in something that may turn into a lawsuit, you shouldn't be speaking about it. I've been in a situation where I've been, by being a volunteer for an organization, tangentially involved to a lawsuit against an organization, and anything I said in any communication with anyone in the organization could be subpoenaed for that lawsuit, and while it never happened to me things other volunteers said was taken out of context and leveraged to make the organization look bad (which is bad legal practice since the context was pretty exculpatory but I suspect the point was to coerce the organization into settling).

Itch.io probably isn't liable for this (it would be either the developer or publisher breaching the agreement, if I understand it correctly) but they may be named as a party to a lawsuit given that their platform is involved in the circumstances and you have that shiny "moderator" name badge that could get you involved indirectly.

Best practices is to not talk about legal issues as a possible party unless you are absolutely certain that you are in the clear, because I can guarantee you someone will make your comments ammunition in a way that's very embarrassing for someone else and that will make it very uncomfortable for you. And based on the fact you're mentioning things like "Only open source licenses are perpetual and non-revocable by design" while talking about a perpetual license that survives termination of the Terms of Service you're probably not being cautious enough in your research or wording (and if you can find anything in the itch.io Terms of Service that states that licenses can be revoked, you're welcome to share a link, though I wouldn't encourage commenting any further per my point above.) 

Anyway, TL;DR, don't talk about legal stuff when you have a shiny name badge because it will suck for you if it does go to court, even if you're not a lawyer, and also you need to do less association of unrelated things and some basic research before making an argument and you'll be a lot more convincing, or at least maybe know when to pick a battle.

Moderator (3 edits) (+1)

Of course I'm not a lawyer, but when you make stuff and put it online? You have to know a thing or two to stay out of trouble. And you don't.

First of all: no, a license is not a contract. A contract has to be signed by both parties, otherwise it's null and void. And even if it was a contract, it could be canceled.

Second, I'm a volunteer moderator. Nothing I say here is official. Especially since this is about a project published on itch.io, where I have no authority as a moderator (it only extends to the community). Edit: in fact I pointed out repeatedly throughout my posts in this topic that I'm only expressing my opinions as a creator and player who is using the site like everyone else. Even our admins use their accounts the usual way.

Third: you seem awfully certain this can go to court, and you're making statements that sound threatening. I do not appreciate being threatened. You throw around awfully big words given the nature of this entire situation.

Once again, I am not a lawyer. I could be wrong about any and all of this. But your arguments don't convince me at all. And itch.io does have legal council. The real kind, for a change.

First: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/l/licensing-agreement.asp. Also, your understanding of contract law is sorely lacking. A contract *can* be cancelled but it has to meet criteria to do so. If a contractor gets paid for work they don't complete on a project, that's a breach of contract, and just because they say "I cancelled the contract" doesn't mean they're not liable for breach of contract. Taylor Swift's publisher licenses music to Spotify, but if they said "Actually we're just going to pull our music" without having a clause in the contract they could point to Spotify would have grounds to sue for damages. Also, both parties agreed to the itch.io Terms of Service as either publishers and users, so both are bound to the Terms of Service as a contract (and yes, that is a contract, here's a link: https://www.iubenda.com/en/help/43147-are-terms-of-service-legally-binding), and while both parties do have ways to terminate the contract, the termination of the contract does not terminate clauses that survive termination, of which the clause in question actually does. I don't have any nicer way to say it, and if you're going to argue it further, I would appreciate some actual sources or research instead of hand wave "No it isn't" responses that are factually wrong and can be debunked by a single Google search.

Second: I was a volunteer and was told that having a name badge as a moderator in a social space potentially made me a party to the lawsuit. I'm just saying what I was told based on my experience. You're welcome to ignore it, like I said I'm not a lawyer, but as someone who has done community moderation which is sucky work for sucky compensation it's not worth the trouble in my opinion. Just because what I said "wasn't official" didn't mean it wouldn't be hoovered up in a subpoena (yes, I asked, I'm not just making this up, sorry you want to get defensive but court systems don't care about "just using the site like everyone else" and it's a very frustrating experience).

Third: Not threatening you, just offering advice which I recommend you take, but you don't have to and I'm not going to be the one to do anything- I don't have the kind of money to launch a lawsuit over a $9.99 game that I got in a bundle. However, this is a material breach of contract and potentially someone could take it to court and speaking from experience it hits different to see comments you read online from fellow volunteers in a court document. And yeah, I throw around big words, because in case you've ever seen a legal document they don't exactly avoid them. I can't believe in 2024 "using big words" is somehow a reason to invalidate an argument, but then again it is the internet. But I would encourage, before you keep posting and making yourself look like you don't know what you're talking about, to at *least* look for an answer some of the things you're going to say, because when your "first of all" point is factually wrong it really erodes credibility.

The point is, that Itch might change their tos and do keep frozen versions of a game for access, similar to Steam. But in their current tos they do not act in such a capacity and push all privileges and duties to the publisher. The privilege is to be able to remove the content. The duty is to not being able to revoke the license and it would be very wise of a developer to remove content in a way that does not result in eglible refund requests. Removing content is rather unwise to begin with. But making people not act unwise by tos is practially impossible.

To speculate about reasons: there is no curation of the files. The publisher handles all of them. There is no platform integration. It is just file hosting. Steam games on the other hand are integrated into the platform. The developer cannot just change files or functionality on a whim.

The plus is, that drm is not a thing on Itch in most cases. The minus is, that you should always download your purchases. Including any mega bundles.

(+1)

Which law was broken or is going to be broken? Which terms of service were broken or are going to be broken?

Did you buy the game and downloaded it yet? You do know that you can keep it, just as the reminder told you? "to keep the game."

Nothing is taken from you, except for the abilty to download the game from Itch after a certain date. 

You can absolutely be angry about the situation. I do not like this too, because it undermindes the cloud principle and damages trust in the concept. But please be angry about the correct things and do not accuse people of the wrong things. You undermine your rightful anger with fallacious arguing.

(1 edit)

Not a lawyer, but, uh... contract law, actually, by violating a perpetual license to "access the content and to use, reproduce, distribute, display and perform such content as permitted through the functionality of the Service." That's from the itch.io Terms of Service, by the way, since you didn't read the rest of the thread. Though to be fair calling them thieves is wrong, that's a different thing and legally speaking the distinction is important. 

When you have a license, you have rights to do what the license says you can do, and violating those is actually a breach of contract, despite what a lot of people who do not understand what a license is on the internet repeatedly say. I'm not going to explain the significance of that because I'm not a lawyer, but it is generally grounds for civil or possibly even criminal proceedings. In this case, it would be a material breach (since the ability to access the content is interrupted- requiring the user to download the content before a certain date is not sufficient for stating that you have the ability to access the content) and anticipatory breach (since the content hasn't been made inaccessible yet) but that will become an actual breach if the installer becomes unavailable.

Now, the bad news is that this is probably not going to end up really helping anyone get a fix. Breach of contract rarely results in any significant punitive damages unless there was a larger criminal action involved (like intentional fraud) and that's unlikely to be the case here, and it's almost certainly not worth the legal costs since you are not guaranteed to get legal costs paid even for a successful suit. The game is $9.99, so it's rolling the dice to hopefully not get crushed by Netflix lawyers who will almost certainly be paid more than your lawyers, and if they pad out the proceedings which big corporate lawyers are prone to do, well...) so this is going to "work" for Netflix or whoever decided it was a good idea.

The only way to really get any redress for users would be if itch.io took legal action against the removal of the game, but that seems unlikely to happen (though they could actually probably win damages beyond base value of goods and services rendered, since allowing a publisher to violate their Terms of Service erodes confidence in the platform). Though, hypothetically, I don't think the itch.io ToS shields Oxenfree's developer/publisher/whoever made the decision, as a third party to the contract, from a class action lawsuit, but that's something an actual lawyer would need to review, not me, especially since the arbitration waiver clause is very legalese heavy and potentially very broad.

Responding to the following response in an edit because the thread was locked:

Actually, breaching contract is exactly what's happening here. Let me talk about the points here and try to explain it as best I can as someone who is not a lawyer. I think part of the confusion here is the difference between criminal law and civil law. Technically, there is no crime being committed here, but this would probably be a material breach of contract (more on that later, but I'm already writing far more than is reasonable for an internet forum).

1. Perpetual licenses are perpetual, and itch.io offers a perpetual license to users that survives termination of the agreement by the publisher. Don't know what else to say about it. Now, a lot of contracts have clauses that allow for termination or revocation, but itch.io's contract actually does not (even Good Old "You Own Your" Games reserves the right to terminate your access to licenses for material breaches of contract) but in what may have been an oversight, I don't think itch.io even has that- it's a very consumer friendly terms of service, and while they do have grounds to ban your account, they don't have specific ways to terminate the license. 

Of course, the consumer friendliness depends, to some extent, on whether the contract is enforced, and that's where the problem here comes in- whoever is revoking access is breaching the contract, but it's unlikely to go to court because of the way binding arbitration clauses work, unless itch.io decides to sue Netflix for this since they might actually have large enough damages to make it worth it if they win. While I would be encouraged by that decision as an itch.io user, it probably isn't a good financial or strategic decision though, since it's probably harder for them to win on someone else's rights being infringed. Anyway, I'm not a lawyer so I can't explain the nuances of legalese confidently, but here's an article related to perpetual licenses: https://www.legalsifter.com/blog/contract-concepts-giving-a-contract-a-perpetual....

To sum it up, though, contracts (like the Terms of Service, which are a contract- https://www.iubenda.com/en/help/43147-are-terms-of-service-legally-binding - "Since they are a contract, terms and conditions are legally binding to every extent.") can be terminated or modified, but in this case the publisher does not have the rights to do so per the contract they agreed to- nothing gives them the right to terminate access by users to the product, and no clause in the agreement allows them to interfere with a license agreement. 2. Downgrading/changing products in development is a different case, and often times projects that have been modified substantially offer refunds or other relief to customers. Those who do not may run the risk of running afoul of advertising regulations, especially if they published a product with one description and delivered another. While not all developers do this, not all developers are lawyers, nor is it right when developers do this. 

There is a "good faith" argument to be made when a project is intended to deliver a project and fails, but that may still result in liability- if you pay a contractor to do work on your house, and they can't complete the project, they may still be taken to court to recover damages. You'll notice that crowdfunding projects and early access software terms often include specific protections for developers in this case. Any Kickstarter reminds you that delivery of products and refunds are not guaranteed.

However, no such disclaimer was provided here. Even in the case where there is something like a server shutting down (see Concord for a good recent example) companies may issue refunds to avoid lawsuits for breach of contract. Breach of contract is not a criminal offense in and of itself, and usually civil suits for breach of contract tend to be limited to actual damages, so refunding a product basically protects a company in case of a material breach of contract most of the time. There are more complicated legal situations that don't apply here, but that starts to get into legalese I'm not qualified to explain.

It's also probably why this decision is being made by the party responsible- most of the affected users have access to Oxenfree through a bundle so the material damages are negligible in most cases since any lawyer worth their salt would argue that in a bundle of thousands of items no one item is worth the full cost of the bundle. Even if they lost that they would almost certainly be capped on material damages at $9.99 for the list price of the game, perhaps with any applicable taxes or fees the user paid (like the situation people who directly bought the game on itch.io are in). Even direct purchases are unlikely to be "worth" suing over. The binding arbitration clause probably protects Netflix in this case, so a class action is unlikely. 

It's not that there's any unique reason why Netflix can actually defend this decision- they would probably lose in court if someone was able to bring a legal team of similar caliber to their own to the table and force them to follow the Terms of Service to the letter. It's just that taking them to court is a losing battle for anyone impacted unless you get a judge to award legal fees as part of the damages, which is not guaranteed in the US even if you went on to win the case, and fighting Netflix's legal team for pennies (or even the $9.99 list price) means the reward is not worth the risk. I'm not a lawyer, so I can't realistically factor in the odds of that- you can sometimes claim legal fees as damages, and you could probably make the argument that this is an abuse of the binding arbitration clause, but whether a judge would grant that is beyond my ability to reasonably guess at. 

Even just filing a lawsuit in most jurisdictions costs more than that, and if your case is dismissed for any technical reason (which Netflix's lawyers would look for before anything else) you would be stuck with the cost of the case. Realistically, they could just settle and pay $9.99 or so to anyone who threatened to file a suit and that's the best anyone could get, but even hiring a lawyer to send a letter would likely cost more than it's worth.

Anyway, to get back on topic, contract law (in the US, this is governed by the Uniform Commercial Code) requires notice for updating or changing a contract, which is why whenever a service updates their terms (like Steam updating their Steam Subscriber Agreement on the 24th) they have to give you notice of the update.

This is probably why an email was sent to people who own Oxenfree on itch.io (and why there was a follow up email for people who owned it through a bundle, because initially they were not notified). However, this doesn't necessarily mean that it's valid- changing a contract requires a means to do so, and in most contracts the ways a contract can be modified are included in the contract. I don't believe that applies here, though I'm not a lawyer and there may be something I'm missing. It looks like how someone might modify a contract, but I don't think they actually have the ability to do so per the itch.io Terms of Service.

The only grounds for changing the contract I see in the itch.io Terms of Service is reserved for itch.io. The email sent to users is dressed up like how someone might update a terms of service agreement for a platform, but it's not using any actual mechanism to do so. There would be ways to make the removal of the game binding, such as by Netflix offering a key on another platform but saying "By accepting this key, you waive your rights to the product through your purchase on itch.io" (since that would be entering into a new contract that releases Netflix from their obligations to this one) but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

There are cases where a contract can be modified in other ways (https://callagylaw.com/rules-for-altering-contract-terms/ has a better breakdown than I can do) and a lawyer for Netflix would probably argue that they are still satisfying the contract by allowing users to download and retain the software and providing sufficient notice by sending out these emails, but that's a kind of loophole dependent legal argument that really hopes the court doesn't side with the consumer.

3. It's been cited in this forum thread several times, but the itch.io Terms of Service. Specifically https://itch.io/docs/legal/terms#4-publisher-content where publishers grant "To Users, a non-exclusive, perpetual license to access the content and to use, reproduce, distribute, display and perform such content as permitted through the functionality of the Service. Users shall retain a license to this content even after the content is removed from the Service."

While there is room in the preceding paragraph for publishers to remove their content from itch.io, that does not necessarily eliminate their obligation to users for availability of content or their granted license to users. While lawyers could probably fight a long battle over that last sentence that would make all of this look like child's play, it probably means the license as described in the preceding sentence, which specifically includes reproduction through the Service, which would be violated when the ability to download the content is removed.

As I've mentioned before contract law in the US is governed under the Uniform Commercial Code. I'm not going to dig through for a specific paragraph of the UCC to cite directly because I'm not a lawyer, but I've already provided some citations above that talk about contract law (based on the UCC) that explain why it applies and I'd recommend you read those instead of listening to me ramble more than I already have. I hope this clears things up, I know it's a wall of text but there's a reason court documents aren't short.

You argue from a false premise about breaching contract/tos.

Not a lawyer either, but where does it say, that the content has to be available for infinity? There is no talk about any guarantee that said content will always be available or will never change / update / downgrade / be removed.

Especially the downgrade/change. I have seen it happen. A developer unhappy with the project totally shape changing it to something else. Or removing it. The tos does not even require a warning period or notification to download it, before it's gone/changed.

I know why I was asking which tos/law would be broken. My answer is: none! If you have a different answer, please cite the relevant law or tos section.

Consequences like risking to be responsible for refunds, damaging your own reputation as a developer, the reputation of the site you are migrating to, or damaging trust in a store's ability to provide cloud services are a different matter.

(+4)

I think itch.io needs to give an explanation why this can be even allowed. This is more of itch.io's problem because if Netflix can decide to be robbers and steal people's games, the problem isn't just Netflix but them being allowed to do this means others are allowed to do this too which means we can't trust this platform. This doesn't happen at all in other platforms and Netflix hasn't tried to remove the games from them neither for that reason.

On one hand, removing a game from itch should categorically require refunding everyone who ever purchased it.  (I won't say that it should be impossible to remove games from itch, because there are cases when it is unfortunately necessary, e.g. if the original contains illegal material.)

On the other hand, removing a game is de facto possible on most platforms, by replacing the downloads with broken or empty files.  The only way to protect yourself is to download the game yourself and save the download.

(+1)

There is no way to refund a game acquired as part of a bundle. While there may have been people who bought the entire bundle for that one game, the fact remains, they still have over 1700 other games.

There are games that get removed from bundles regularly. (I've bought a LOT of bundles, and sometimes discover when I get back to them to download, that some games are missing.) Oxenfree is just the highest-profile one, one that we know is going somewhere else, rather than "creator made Version 2 and removed Version 1 entirely" or "creator got kicked out for bad behavior so their buyers lost access to all those games."

I really, really wish itch.io would provide info about games that are gone - was it removed by itch.io for a TOS violation, or removed by the creator? Has it just been renamed and the purchase is still valid; you just have to find it under the new game or creator name? (Or both. Sometimes both have changed.) And I wish they'd send out notices for games being removed, with a chance to download them - "Creator has removed SuperEliteGame from the itch.io store; you have 48 hours to download it before it's gone forever."

(+2)

> There is no way to refund a game acquired as part of a bundle.

Sure there is.  Each person who purchased the bundle gets refunded the full price of the removed game at the time of purchase or the full price of the bundle, whichever is less.  Itch.io does not remove the game until the developer has paid for the refunds.  If the developer can't afford the refunds, the game stays up.

That should cover all cases except where the game contains actual illegal material.

This makes me think that they won't remove the game page but just the files or put a blank zip file, technically you will still have the game. itch needs a basic versioning system at least to prevent stuff like this.

(+3)

I did not receive the removal notice.  I think this is because I had not yet added the game from the Bundle page to "My Library" page (by pressing the Download button).  Luckily, I heard about this through the news.  I think this potential oversight should be addressed by itch.io.

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I didn't know about this any kind of notice!

(+1)

I just stumbled upon the email...
So a big company can just buy a studio and decide that people that previously bought their games suddenly don't own them anymore, 1 month notice, huh ?
Man this really sucks

(+1)

Has Itch conmented on this situation yet? I know technically there's probably nothing they can do, but it would be nice if they could let us know how crappy this is and if there's anything they can do to avoid this happening again. This is making me reconsider the wisdom of future purchases here. Every delisted game on GOG and Steam has, to the best of my knowledge, remained available to buyers.

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I can say no, as yesterday I received a "reminder":

"Tue, 24 Sep 2024

Just a reminder: OXENFREE will no longer be available on itch.io beginning October 1, 2024. If you have already downloaded the game, you'll be able to keep it and continue to play from your downloaded files. If you have not already done so, you can download files until October 1, 2024 to keep the game. Everyone who worked on OXENFREE deeply appreciates the support from our community over the past eight years and we hope to see you on another service or timeline soon. Thank you!"

So those THIEVES are still working on their plan, and a shame on itch.io, whose absolute indifference isn't to my trust

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