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Collect emails on free download

A topic by Pigdev created Aug 28, 2019 Views: 3,365 Replies: 30
Viewing posts 1 to 7
(2 edits) (+2)

Hey there, so itch.io is an amazing place to build a community around your games, assets and stuff, but something that is still lacking is the ability to create a relationship with people that didn't pay for getting our projects.

It is a common strategy to release early, or even final, versions of a project for free in exchange of the contact of those who acquired the product.

For instance, if I make a free demo, to test if people are interested in the game and decide to keep developing the project, there is currently no way I can reach out these people that were interested in the game, there isn't a way to update them about the game, to tell them there is a new devlog showing some aspects of the game, in other words there is no way to build a relationship.

Collecting emails only for buyers is...kinda meaningless, most of them already got the value of the project, and probably already have some contact or relationship with the project owner, outside itch.io.

So, in that sense, would be awesome to use our game's landing page, as a proper landing page and allow us to create and build that relationships with our audience. @edit We can use your built-in email for that, which doesn't expose their email and you are in control of limiting spamming etc...


(+2)

Personally, I strongly dislike things that ask me to reveal personal information in exchange for something "free". I'll point out that Itch already has a "follow" system that sends email notifications. Maybe they could add a section to the homepage that would show updates/devlogs from games that you had previously played?

(1 edit) (+2)

Itch.io already collect this information, this is how they send these digests through the follow feature, so why not allow me to as well?

The follow feature is not the same, this is itch.io's building their relationship with their costumers, not me.

I think that if I am providing something for free, in monetary sense, I should definitely get something in exchange. It is easy to get out there taking everything for free with no commitment.

The only other way to actually get something in return for people using your assets and playing your game would be to fallback this trade of favours, to a mere product-costumer relation, making everything paid, which is something that I would like to avoid because I know not everyone is able to pay, and especially, not everyone will understand the value of the product at first glance, preventing a healthy relationship to happen because of a monetary barrier.

(+1)

I don't think this is a good idea.

If someone wants to be updated about your work, there's already plenty of ways to do it. The follow feature is one of them. I don't see how  "this is itch.io's building their relationship with their costumers, not me" makes sense. Your followers follow you for news about you and get notified about your work.

What I understand is that you want a direct way to contact people who tried, but didn't like your work enough to follow you (or subscribe to your mailing list, discord, etc.), which is absurd. Downloading something does not mean you will like, care or support it. Most of the games I download on itch I get just to see if I'll like them. Giving away my private information is absolutely not a commitment I'm willing to make just to try something out.

I get that demanding feedback instead of money sounds great, but I don't see how it could be enforceable. I think the best you can do is ask nicely. 

(8 edits) (+1)
I don't see how  "this is itch.io's building their relationship with their costumers, not me" makes sense. Your followers follow you for news about you and get notified about your work.

If this is true, than why they highlight other's project inside this email, an email people get because they followed me, not these other highlighted projects? There is absolutely nothing wrong with this btw, but this proves my point that this feature is a way for itch.io to build their relationship, not mine.

What I understand is that you want a direct way to contact people who tried, but didn't like your work enough to follow you (or subscribe to your mailing list, discord, etc.), which is absurd

You understood it wrong, then. This that you suggest that I'm trying to do we all already do, we can contact people on twitter to get them into our landing page, which main responsibility is to convince people that get on it that the project is good enough to deserve a chance, by downloading it.

My concern is to maintain that interest and to show people that, if they liked that first impression, and liked the iteration of the project they experimented at that point in time, maybe they will like to try the updated version, or another files, or tiers of that project.

Most of the games I download on itch I get just to see if I'll like them

If you like to do that, is OK.. But most people, if not convinced by the landing page, won't even try.

That's why we have so many features to try to show them the project's value, using video trailers, screenshots, about session, etc...

If the games you download didn't convince you just with their landing page, this is another discussion. My point, again, is: if someone downloaded the project they may have some interest on it, and I want to show them more about the project.

Giving away my private information is absolutely not a commitment I'm willing to make just to try something out.

Then don't try it and don't provide it, is that simple. I mean, is not as if your email wasn't available already to itch.io, you already made that commitment, you got a user after all, for free, look how funny.

Just to make it clearer, what I am asking is not for itch.io to just print your email to my computer and provide me a plain text file with all emails of everyone that downloaded my projects.

My request is: itch.io already has a built-in emailing tool, but this tool doesn't send emails to people that didn't pay for the project, so my request is: this feature could send email to these people.

For that, I don't even have to know your email, you are not exposing yourself to me all I'm asking is to add the group of people that got a files of the project for free to that feature as well, instead of just those who paid


Right now, when you download a free game Itch doesn't require you to be signed in or to enter an email, so they literally don't know the email addresses of free players. There could be a per-game setting to force people to enter one, but in my opinion that'd be pretty annoying and I'm glad they don't currently support it.

if you don't have an email, then there is nothing to be collected then...my point is not to enforce anyone to provide anything, I really don't know your guys' point. Are you really getting the context of what I'm asking? Because it seems that you are throwing points that makes no sense for the sake of what I'm asking in this post.

There could be a per-game setting to force people to enter one

As I said, I am not asking to force people to provide their emails otherwise they won't download the game, if this was the case I could just put the games paid and make a 100% permanent sale or make an unlimited Reward that costs $0 and turn on "New purchases & downloads require a reward", this would do the trick, but that's not what I want.

As I said, if itchio already has their email and we have a tool to send email to people that downloaded our game, why not include free downloads as well?

I think you're clinging too much to the interest a person gives when it downloads your work. If they don't decide to keep tabs on you after downloading, then I think it's better to let go. From what I gather, you want to employ an "aggressive" marketing strategy I disagree with and find kind of disrespectful.

I don't mind Itch having my email, because I trust them to handle it carefully. Allowing the feature you're asking for would at least damage that trust. I've played a lot of games here. I don't want every dev to have a direct line to my private email.

(1 edit)

You can disagree with whatever you want, that's your opinion, this doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to do just because you have that opinion. But to make this clear, that's not what I'm trying to implement, this is already implemented by itch.io, so they already have what you so called "aggressive" marketing strategy built-in and already being used, if you disagree with that, there is an option on your profile to turn this off, and if I remember correctly, will turn off the emails from that feature I pointed as well, simple like that, actually I think you can even turn Itch emails on and updates from games off...

See, I think you are just putting your bias without actually thinking, just to be that "ohh I praise so much my internet privacy" standard. What I mean by that is: this tool that I pointed is a tool from Itch they are in power of deciding what this tool does or not, for instance, we can't send more than 1 email/week per project, they can turn this down to 1/mo for free downloads if they want. This is all already controlled by Itch, which you claim to trust, and thus this is not a "direct line to your private email", Itch is under all the control of this tool, if I send something using this tool I am almost sure they have access to that content, so if you trust Itch, you are already trusting what I'm proposing here, this is already available, this is already being used, I guess that never annoyed you, so why bother now? At the very worse scenario you can have a "player email" that you never look at, and tell itchio to use this email for updates 🤷🏻

I mean, all I want is to include free download to that feature.

Contrary to what you seem to believe, my replies were well thought out and I still think they stand.

I guess I wouldn't mind it being implemented if I could disable the feature for all games. A bad feature you can disable is still a bad feature though.

It can be good or bad, depend on the perspective, for me it is good :)

This is really bad, not only the creator could use it to mass market like steam but the emails can be faked. there are too many programs and websites that can create fake emails. So this won't work as a customer or a creator.

What do you mean by email can be faked? That doesn't make sense, as I say, people can turn off this feature and is not a prerequisite to download the game to have an email, please read the whole thread.

It doesn't mean scammers wont use it to take emails and as email can be faked, all anyone needs is a free domain that can be thrown away, its very common thing to do.

Please read the thread, we don't have access to the email, is all on itch.io's server.

(2 edits) (+1)

I understand why you would want such a feature but I don't think it would work. Neither as an additional way to improve sales or simply engage users who downloaded a free product.

1) I download a lot of free stuff just to play something random, other times it's to provide feedback, and sometimes I might actually be interested in playing the game for a long period of time. I don't particularly want to be spammed with emails from every single free game I happen to have in my library. You might try to argue "but I will only send quality emails" but the issue is it's open to abuse. Just because I downloaded your (free) game it does not mean I'm actually interested in updates, progress, or anything else really. If I paid for you game it's different - I only want email updates about a product where I spent actual money to buy it. At no point do you mention the ability for me to "opt-out".  In fact, further on you suggest that if I don't provide my email then I shouldn't get to play your "free" game.

2) "What do you mean by email can be faked? That doesn't make sense" Yes it does. Email addresses can be faked for the most part. It's been a common thing for a long time.  For example the place where  I work uses SendGrid. Do you know what you can do with SendGrid? You can specify a custom "from" address for testing. I can send you an email from cia@us.gov or from yourbestfriendsemailaddress@gmail.com . It's only when you look further into the email sender that it shows as a "fake" email address and a lot of people are unaware of how to check it. 

3) "if you don't have an email, then there is nothing to be collected then...my point is not to enforce anyone to provide anything, I really don't know your guys' point. Are you really getting the context of what I'm asking? Because it seems that you are throwing points that makes no sense for the sake of what I'm asking in this post."

Yes, people understand the context of what you are asking. At no point do you mention the ability to opt-out. So if I am signed into a free account and download your free game you are asking itch to force me to provide you with my email address by proxy of download. By downloading your free game you get my email address. This is a much lower barrier to entry than most people will accept.

4) "Then don't try it and don't provide it, is that simple. I mean, is not as if your email wasn't available already to itch.io, you already made that commitment, you got a user after all, for free, look how funny."

This is insidious and should not be how you reply to a potential player. "Don't want to give me your email? pfft. Fine! Don't play my game then!" It's one thing to suggest their email address can be collected, it's another thing to give an ultimatum - oh you're logged into an account and want to try my free game? give me your email address or you can't download it. 

5) "For instance, if I make a free demo, to test if people are interested in the game and decide to keep developing the project, there is currently no way I can reach out these people that were interested in the game, there isn't a way to update them about the game, to tell them there is a new devlog showing some aspects of the game, in other words there is no way to build a relationship."

The key point you seem to miss is just because I downloaded you free game it doesn't mean I'm interested in future updates, your devlogs, or what you plan on eating tonight. The player has the agency to decide what to do. If I am interested in your game I will follow you, got Twitter? I'll probably follow you there too so I can get updates about your game.  People who want to engage because they like your game will find a way to engage with you either via social media or something like discord.

Whilst I disagree with OP about this being a necessary feature it doesn't mean it's a totally bad idea. There are some use-cases where it could be useful. However, if this was added than there would have to be the option to opt-out. Yet, from what you said earlier it appears your attitude towards people who don't want to provide their email is "fine don't play my game then!". 

Your position does not appear to be for the benefit of the player, but a way for you to increase your following in an inorganic way.

You're being a bit of a hypocrite. First you say you don't want to force people to give you their email.

"if you don't have an email, then there is nothing to be collected then...my point is not to enforce anyone to provide anything,"

but then you turn around and say that if you don't want to provide an email address... don't download the game.

"Then don't try it and don't provide it, is that simple. I mean, is not as if your email wasn't available already to itch.io, you already made that commitment, you got a user after all, for free"

Why are you insisting that people have to give their email address or "don't try it".

"I think that if I am providing something for free, in monetary sense, I should definitely get something in exchange."

No... you're entitled to nothing. How is it free if you demand something in return?

You're not being flexible at all. It might be different if you said "I would like to be able to email people who downloaded my game for free, but they should be given a choice to provide that email when downloading"

This game would like to collect your email address for blah blah blah
[    ] allow this developer to email you
[ x ] do not allow this developer to email you

(4 edits)

I said how they can opt-out here:

if you disagree with that, there is an option on your profile to turn this off, and if I remember correctly, will turn off the emails from that feature I pointed as well, simple like that, actually I think you can even turn Itch emails on and updates from games off...

We can even rely on the "follow" feature for that. If "follow" is on, we can send emails to them, otherwise no

Regarding your 1st concern, as I said, please read the thread. We would be using itch.io's built-in email tool, in which limits the amount and quality of the emails.

In fact, further on you suggest that if I don't provide my email then I shouldn't get to play your "free" game.

Where did I said that? In fact I very clearly and explicitly said the total opposite of that:

As I said, I am not asking to force people to provide their emails otherwise they won't download the game, if this was the case I could just put the games paid and make a 100% permanent sale or make an unlimited Reward that costs $0 and turn on "New purchases & downloads require a reward", this would do the trick, but that's not what I want.

Regarding

Yes it does. Email addresses can be faked for the most part. It's been a common thing for a long time.  For example the place where  I work uses SendGrid. Do you know what you can do with SendGrid? You can specify a custom "from" address for testing. I can send you an email from cia@us.gov or from yourbestfriendsemailaddress@gmail.com . It's only when you look further into the email sender that it shows as a "fake" email address and a lot of people are unaware of how to check it.

All in all, itch.io confirms emails in any case, these are the emails they use for that built-in emailing tool

I read what you wrote. The problem is you came across like you were demanding their email and if they didn't provide it they would not be allowed to play the game.

"Then don't try it and don't provide it, is that simple. I mean, is not as if your email wasn't available already to itch.io, you already made that commitment, you got a user after all, for free"

 If you're not asking for it to be mandatory then I don't think it's as much of an issue. It's just debatable as to if it's a needed feature (I assume the devs left it out for a reason... or maybe it was an oversight).

(+1)

I honestly can't see any problem with supporting this feature, even as a player, as long as, like you said, we can easily opt out.

As I pointed, it is a small addition to an already very tested and explored feature, that emailing tool, which itch.io has total control over and the player's data isn't exposed at all (as we can't see the actual emails, just the categories).

So basically it would be just a matter of adding a new category "Free download" or even just "Followers", in which only people that turned on "Follow" are included.

Then it could be debatable if everyone that downloads the game are automatically following and they can opt-out, or if we keep it as is and players can opt-in to that email category by following the project. Either are OK honestly

Why not just make a newsletter and link to it on your game's pages? I mean, that is effectively the same thing and doesn't put Itch.io in a tight spot if people abuse it. You are asking for a complex solution to something that you can more easily solve yourself, and do a better job at maintaining anyway. You can brand it how YOU want, and have total control over it. Also, this isn't some wild idea, it's actually standard industry practice.

i I don't know how to do those, honestly. But I think would be nice to have all this integrated on itch, and exactly relying on itch.io to maintain this as a good feature, it already does it as I mentioned.

Also it would be hard to abuse it as well, itch.io already limit the amount of emails we can send, as I mentioned people can opt in and out of that easily.

It is not a complex request:

Add followers category to the built in email tool, there is nothing in this request that isn't already there, is just a matter of matching them.

The opt-in and out isn't simple as you think, steam even had problems with it on their end. Many people would forget it existed or never tryed to opt-out. This is why it can never be a feature, it can be abused.

(1 edit)

Please, point me a single feature in this platform that can't be abused.

Devlogs can.

Publish projects can

Feed can

Game Jams can

Please, just tell me a single one that can't. If you really believe that "can be abused" is a valid argument for not adding or remove a feature.

devlogs are for reading, you dont give away anyone infomation and uploading melwere thing is impossable.

Publish projects are not that abused with itch.io scanning and players reporting it. mods remove it quicker than steam.

you can not control feeds, there is no rule on it like steam.

game jams are game james, people can report any jam that looks like a scammer might steal their info.

What you want with email can be abused for both gamedev and players, the infomation is not going to be accurate. ask anyone in steam when they ask for email, you'll see how easy it is to just add random fake emails into the list. steam even allows fake emails to be counted as accounts. nothing about the email marking is ever going to work.

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can you describe me how the moderators and players aren't in the control of the feature I am talking about? Or do you really want to ignore everything I said regarding the fact that we don't have access to players' emails because that's on itch.io's server we can only use general categories to add them to our email using itch.io's build in emailing tool?

Your feature isn't made, there are hundress of ways to make it. And you keep adding new things that were not talked about. Also, the video talks about people entering your email list, not forcing it on them with "hey you want to download this, you need to give email". The guy said it has to be by the user giving it away to you not doing many sneaky things, that is not ok.

that feature is totally already on itch, it is just lacking a special category. It is not sneaky things for god's sake please read the whole post before you comment nonsense.

regarding "email marketing is never going to work" I would like to request your data that supports this statement, as according to this GDC talk, it is one of the few things that actually works at long term:

(+1)

I think it could work and well. It just needs finesse.  

Admin(+1)

Sorry for being so late to this topic. I think the approach we want developers to take is to encourage people to follow their account on itch.io. We already use follows to handle sending digest summaries of devlogs. The idea would be that you would do your marketing style announcements via the devlogs system. This also gets your update syndicated on our devlogs system so people can discover it via the web as well. There are other benefits for developers to encourage their users to follow them as well: we can automate all different kinds of notifications like the aforementioned devlog updates, new game available, games on sale, etc. You don't need to remember to write emails for that stuff, or try to manage individual mailing lists. And users have more fine grained control over those types of notifications.

Also as an aside, we don't collect contact information about people who download things for free. Many people download free accounts without ever creating an account.

I think there's definitely more we can do to encourage people to follow accounts, but sometimes having the developer say it as well can go a long way.

(1 edit) (+1)

Yeah, I understand that. At some point in the post I mentioned that it would definitely be the greatest approach if we had a "Followers" category in the mailing tool provided by itch.io. I think this is the best option.

I understand that devlogs are how you designed this gamedev-followers communication, but it is a bit different. When we write a devlog we often want to get attention from those not following us yet, taking advantage of getting the devlog exposed in the devlogs page, so is likely that people who didn't follow the project sees a devlog and decide to follow it.

Some times we want to deliver a different message to those who are already following the project, knowing that they already follow us, we can direct the message towards a less "convincing" message and just talk about stuff that are not that appealing to broader audiences, as a devlog is more likely to reach.

So that's the take I would suggest: allow us to somehow mail our followers.

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