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Ways to do open source symbol dice

A topic by Ghost Spark created 18 days ago Views: 556 Replies: 11

Viewing posts 1 to 4

Ghost Spark18 days ago(+1)

This jam came at the perfect time, and with the perfect time frame, because this is one of the projects I'm planning for this year.

So, I want to create symbol dice that are open source. They are very much inspired by Fantasy Flight Games' Genesys dice, but they are distinct in colors, shapes and in symbol spread. I was always kind of peeved how the brilliant Narrative dice were just completely shut in to the FFG ecosystem, and seeing how they got bought out by Embracer group, I think there is little chance of those dice ever being used for new games again. Additionally, there are SO MANY WAYS to use symbol dice that open up completely new design avenues to RPGs.

Here's what they currently look like (on Tabletop Simulator).

Mint (d10) and Yellow (d6) dice with Circles and Plus Signs, 0 to 2 on each side. Red (d10) and Purple (d6) dice with Triangles and Minus Signs, 0 to 2 on each side. In further images they are written like "Yellow: Circle Plus" for brevity. This denotes the type of die, and the symbols on the top side.

So I'm thinking of ways how to publicize and make these buggers into a thing overall. Obviously, since it's all open source, I'm not after any profit, I just want symbol dice to exist in a way that people can use them in different games. And I just kind of want to see what kind of things would be the best to prioritize:

Make a sort of quickstart for the dice which goes through the dice in essence (This is probably Prio 1 for obvious reasons)
Make various short games that utilize the dice to show different use cases
Make a dice roller app for them
Make 3d-printable models / a dice sheet for printing
Go to various dice suppliers to see if I could get them to put them to their roster (Likely very low prio, but it would be a massive boost if successful)

I'm also open to hearing about other ideas what could be done. I just REALLY want to get these to the hands of designers and players, because I feel like symbol dice have so much untapped potential.

Rev CaseyHost18 days ago

Oh I love this idea and would like to hear other people chime in!

ValeryNorth17 days ago(+1)

This is very intriguing! I would need a lot more info about what the symbols are and how they're arranged on the dice, but I'm sure this is the sort of thing I would build a system around in a heartbeat if I did!

I could probably build a dice roller app for them if you have PNGs for the sides. (I made an app for PC to roll dice for one of my games, because I needed 9 different arrangements of hitzone symbols. Nobody makes those.)

Ghost Spark17 days ago (2 edits) (+1)

Oh for sure! It's pretty simple. The dice are symmetric (as opposed to Genesys dice which are asymmetric), with two symbols on each die type. Basically, the spread goes like this:

d6: Yellow has Plus and Circle, Purple has Minus and Triangle.

Blank
Blank
Plus / Minus
Plus / Minus
Circle / Triangle
Both Symbols

d10: Mint has Plus and Circle, Red has Minus and Triangle.

Blank
Plus / Minus
Plus / Minus
Plus / Minus
Double Plus / Double Minus
Circle / Triangle
Circle / Triangle
Both Symbols
Both Symbols
Double Circle / Double Triangle

I do have the symbols et al in Affinity files, so they are easy to extract as needed, but for Tabletop Simulator you also need the full spreads laid out on specific PNGs (which may be useful as well). I won't post those here, but they will make it into the Itch page for these things.

Dice Symbols — Circle, Triangle, Plus and Minus

I'm obviously planning on releasing all the Affinity files et al into the wild as well, so if people want to make alternative or additional dice using the symbols, they can.

I can also go further into the game design considerations of the spreads, if necessary. The only thing I'm not completely sold on yet is a name. I originally thought of something like Duality Dice or Protean Dice, but I'm not entirely sure.

willie_2k9 days ago(+1)

That would be cool! Are you set in your choice of probabilities? To get my math brain on board, I'd need to hear a justification for the faces chosen. Something like "this set of die faces lends itself to good game design choices because the circle/triangle can represent a more rare thing and the plus/minus can represent a slightly more normal thing, so game designers should get excited by how much easier it will be to use this die than something else"

My main thought is that choices about die probabilities (status quo, without standardized symbol dice) usually follow decisions about game mechanics/balance, so you're limiting your audience to game designers who want to make a game with the particular combination of probabilities you've provided, rather than what you're hoping, which is people first choosing your dice, then setting their intended game mechanics by the probabilities you've chosen.

I'm thinking also about how a standard 52 card deck has standardized symbols, but all the symbols in the deck are evenly distributed. Since the game designer imposes meaning on the symbols, they have full control over the probabilities.

Would you consider a standard symbol die with a different symbol on each face, possibly with only one blank face? Or some other more evenly distributed set of symbols that would be more malleable to different rules? Like some sides have combinations of symbols but it's more evenly weighted. For instance:

(I can't type a triangle)

| Side | Symbol |

|-------|----------|

| 1 | ○ |

| 2 | □ |

| 3 | ◇ |

| 4 | ○□ |

| 5 | ○◇ |

| 6 | □◇ |

In this example every player has a complete understanding of the set of symbols at a glance, and the game designer can assign their own meanings to the symbols. I would honestly be the most excited about standardizing a die with a different shape on every side, and really leaving full control to the game designers.

I get it if you totally disagree with what I'm saying, because I agree it would be cool if they standardized the dice you yourself came up with. Just airing a thought. Thoughts?

Ghost Spark8 days ago

The dice distribution is obviously a homage to Genesys' dice distribution, with a purposeful evocation of the same design purpose as those dice: The circle / triangle results are rarer but possibly more meaningful (generally they are closer to "hits"), and then the plus / minus results are more common across the board. However, they mostly mutually exclusive, leading into a situation where if you roll a lot of plusses, you probably didn't roll a lot of circles, and vice versa.

If used in the Genesys model (You roll basically two pools of dice, and subtract the results of one from the other), it's very likely that you will be left with a more complex result than success / failure.

To my own use cases, I feel like dividing the dice into two symbols each has its merits in that it gives a designer the ability to control the symbols a game uses. The distributions themselves are still up in the air, but the current distributions already have a pretty good spread when you break them down.

With the d6, there's a 1/3 chance for a blank (which, by the way, can be used as a result in on itself as well), 1/2 chance of the minor symbol, and 1/3 chance for the major symbol. This maps into a d6 with 5-6 counting as hits, with an extra layer of the second symbol results.

With the d10, there's a 1/10 chance for a blank, 1/2 chance for the major symbol, 6/10 chance for the minor symbol, and 1/10 chance for double major symbol. This is closer to a 50/50 hit die, with a slightly higher chance for the minor symbols, and a "critical" result with the double major symbol.

These both are very close to common dice distributions in dice pool games when you think about it. They just have additional nuances with the secondary symbols.

To me, a flatter distribution with more symbols, like you suggested, has its merits for some designers, but I think the way I have distributed things is perhaps easier for gameplay purposes. I just feel like it increases the complexity of the design space exponentially when more symbols are added per die, as it feels necessary to use all symbols in the dice.

I dunno. The symbols will be open source, so if people want to make their own dice using the symbols with different distributions and symbol combinations, for sure. I just personally don't feel too inspired by the flatter distributions, personally. Sorry.

Genesys dice model — Genesys' dice table

willie_2k6 days ago

Hi! Lots to think about. Didn't mean to be on the attack, just was trying to be really clear on where my brain was at for this and why it wasn't jiving for me yet. I can also see how the qualms I had about the breadth of application aren't your priority, and therfore not an issue.

Initially the biggest thing I like is your point about how the mutual exclusivity plays out in dice pools, especially (but also without) the subtracted dice pool. The other aspects require more thought on how they could be applied. I'll take a look at how Genesys uses the two types of symbols for an example.

Totally different thought- idk how much experience you have doing digital art. If you want help with stylized models of your dice, I'd be happy to come up with something and open source the result.

Ghost Spark5 days ago

Oh, don't worry about it, no offense taken. I just got caught up in explaining the system so I didn't really take into account how I came off. Sorry if the response was a little blunt on that front.

But yeah, having a cursory understanding of how Genesys' Narrative Dice work will help in the thought process I have behind this endeavor, though the dice are a little different in that Genesys actually has 6 symbols and 6 different dice, not 4 like I do for both. The two additional symbols and dice are not without their merits, but I feel like they work better within the confines of Genesys itself. But then again, this will all be open source, so who is to say people wouldn't make additional polyhedrals in the long run using the symbols?

So Genesys is a slightly different beast despite being the origin. Though, I personally feel like ultimately the best mechanics that people can come up with on these dice will be much more interactive and imaginative than the basic Genesys-style subtraction.

For the digital art side... I will admit I am not an artist. I am going to expand my skillset to the realm of 3d modeling at some point, and I do some light graphic design, since I do the layout of my books by myself. What do you have in mind? Something akin to alternative stylizations or ornaments for the dice? I would definitely appreciate that.

Having alternative versions of the dice (simple, stylized, ornamental etc) would definitely help legitimize the designs a lot.

willie_2k5 days ago

I'm pretty good at the 3d software, but I don't have an extensive art background to reference. Ie., I'm flying by the seat of my pants. Here are some stops along my pants flight:

I'm great at digital modeling but I've never made physical dice myself. I do have a 3d printer to make the initial model, but taking it the next step (making a silicon mold and resin casting) I would leave to someone else.
Currently your dice have sharp edges. Some people like that. We could also easily round them.
Hollow dice, like a cage made of some squiggly or zig zaggy pattern are doable, model-wise. Good for digital tabletop but hard to manufacture.
We could also explore stylized versions of your symbols. Probably plus and minus should stay mostly the same, but there's a lot you can do to a triangle and a circle and still be recognizable.
I'd use Blender for modeling, shading, and exporting the dice and Inkscape for the symbols.

I also like teaching, so if you want to play around yourself, I'm happy to point you toward a usable workflow. Tbh that's my preferred path, because it takes less work for me and I'd feel like I contributed what I wanted to this project.

Ghost Spark5 days ago

Yeah, for sure, if you would prefer to just give pointers, I'm not gonna refuse any help I can get! I'm going to slowburn this project anyway, I just started higher education (again) and I have a moderately-sized Backerkit campaign starting in... 3 days (No Panik at all!). So I'm kinda strapped for time right now, but I will probably have much more time on my hands during the spring and summer.

I just put this thread and project on the wire pretty early because I think it really benefits from the longer timespans in the planning phases.

Honestly, all the ideas you have are very cool (doing a digital 3d roller app + maybe some VTT plugins would be cool and a good way to get the dice out there). I personally use Affinity currently, but good thinking with the Inkscape and Blender angle. I'm familiar with both, but not very proficient with either.

willie_2k4 days ago

oh Affinity is great just not free. If you've got it go for it 😄

Ping me if you ever want to chat though, good luck w your semester.

Ghost Spark4 days ago (1 edit)

Nah I just meant that while Affinity is great, for an open source project it's best to use open source software. That way you can easily share the core files in a way that are editable to anyone.

... Unless .svg actually does that for vector things, in that case I wouldn't really need to learn inkscape again.

ETA Anyway, I'll get in touch whenever I actually need the help (and I'm pretty sure I will).

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Ways to do open source symbol dice