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(1 edit)

If you ever want me to stfu and stop flooding your comments just let me know lol. 

How did you expect readers to identify with dad? What about dad did you think would really make readers fall in love with him?

Like I mentioned before, on my first playthrough I found dad just to be too perfect and overly happy/cheery, which just causes me to estrange from him.

Like before, I will play through all of Dave's dreams again equipped with knowledge of what your intentions were while writing them. I'm wondering what readers should be feeling or what information they should be gaining with each dream. 
You said:
- Dave is haunted by his subconscious version of dad
- Dreams are not intended to be happy memories
- Dad is popular being he's hot and potentially treated as a surrogate father

I'm also going to go into these dreams by thinking about how to make a good father figure:
- A role model
- Recognize when their children are struggling with something
- Talking about serious topics, but with care
- Spending time together and bonding

Day 10 - 
GOAL: Introduce Dad and show how Dave remembered his dad's personality. 

- I think this is scene is quite effective for the most part. 
- Why does Dave ask for his dad's name? Does he think it's an imposter? If so it's swept under the rug quite quickly. 
- The part that perturbs me the most are the lines between "...and that they're going to die because of me." and "...but maybe make it less heavy if you can."
Is this how Dave thinks his dad would respond if Dave was terrified he was going to cause someone to die? The advice seems a little cliched.
If I were to change this, I would make dad respond back with questions: "What do you think you should do?", "Why do you think they are going to die?", "What have you done to protect them?", "Have you done all you could?", "Is this truly what you are so afraid of?", etc. Personally, when I need advice I love questions like these. It really makes me think about what I truly want and need to do. 
- I think also maybe what's subconsciously messing with me is that one sprite where dad is smiling with his eyes closed and fist in the air, like he is super pumped. Sometimes it's just too much compared to what's written in his dialogue. When I just ignore it and let my mind's eye play out the scene, it's less jarring. 

Day 11-
GOAL: Witness how dad handles Dave amidst turbulent marriage? tbh I don't know, I find it very unclear.  

Suggestion:
If my interpretation of the goal is correct, perhaps a more gripping way to do this is to plop Dave right at the dinner table with mom and dad, all is normal and Dave just observes the scene until it quickly devolves into them fighting (This whole time the argument is just garbled nonsense). Dave just sits there silently but is internally very stressed out. Dad notices this and sets a hand on Dave's shoulder, waking Dave from his trance. Mom has vanished from the room and dad is looking at Dave directly in the eyes. Dad apologizes and tries to cheer Dave up with jokes and hearty laughter.

Day 12 Dream 1 - 
GOAL: Show how lonely Dave feels

Suggestion:
Maybe Dave could wake up to the sound of a door closing and a car driving off (hinting that someone has left the house). Dave could teleport to a nearby coffee shop and see all his friends sitting at a table, talking and laughing together. Dave tries to approach them but can't move. He tries to call out to them but they can't hear him. Dave returns back home, but while walking past Tyson's home he sees Tyson's empty spot on his front porch. He thinks briefly about Tyson. He continues walking home and sees mom's car in the driveway. He enters his home and calls out to his mom but receives no response. 

Day 12 Dream 2 -
GOAL: Dave wants to figure out why he can't cry.

I don't have much to say about this. It's quick, simple, emotional, and I love the ending. 

Day 13 - 
GOAL: Dave wants to know if he's the reason for his parents' issues. 

- Is this supposed to be a memory or just a scenario Dave conjured in his mind? It reads more like a memory. This is curious considering every other one of these sequences are dreams. 
- Dave reads as much younger in this scene. 
- In the previous dream sequences, Dave is clearly doubting so many things in his life. It would make sense for Dave to feel like he's the reason for his parent's marital issues, but dad immediately qualms those fears, which doesn't seem entirely consistent, if I'm making any sense at all. If Dave is at the peak of his depression, you'd think he'd get a negative dream, right? Something that reinforces his fears.  

Day 14 Dream 1 - 
GOAL: Dave's largest internal fear (inadequacy? being useless?) comes to fruition and becomes too much for him. 

This scene was done quite well. 
Just this one line "That's it, Dave... It'll all be over soon." isn't my favorite. Personally, I would just remove it and let Jack go straight to killing.

Day 14 Dream 2 - 
GOAL: I'm not really sure, but the reader figures out why Dave can't cry

- Dave recalls his friends, where they lived on his street, and who came over to his house.
- He says he never liked spending time in the living room. (I don't understand this)
- Different colors all look the same
- Dad appears in Dave's doorway, Dave asks why he died, Dad doesn't respond.
- Dave wonders why he isn't crying

I'm struggling to find the link between all of this. 

Day 14 Memories - 
GOAL: Everything comes crashing down and Dave finally accepts what happened

- Unfortunately, most of the humorous parts aren't really landing with me. 
- I still feel in this part dad is too unnaturally happy-go-lucky. I don't know at what age Dave's dad died, but this scene makes me think Dave is like 12 years old (I can't remember a point where it was mentioned). I think if I knew Dave's age I would find the dialogue a lot more realistic. 
- The last moment with Dave and dad (paired with Tyson finding that strange ID card in path D) makes me think you're planning a phat plot twist soon. But otherwise, the last moment with dad is very very sweet. Even sadder knowing it's Dave's last moment with him. 
- For when Dave hears the bad news, for the lines between "But no, Hoyt told me..." and "...in a daze. Dad was dead." I strongly believe you could really flesh this out. Make the reader feel everything Dave was feeling at that moment. The feeling of a child's entire world crashing down in an instant. 
- And the part after in the kitchen makes me cry again. It's so well written and the art is fantastic too (I imagine the finished art will make the scene even more powerful). Great work lol. 

Day 15 -
I love that you dream about the route character and what you'd like to truly say to them, instead of a sad dream about dad or being alone. 
What if before the character comes into view, you had dad briefly appear and shoot Dave a smile before walking out the door?


I have two personal scenes in my mind that I can't shake:
- Dave and dad are hanging out before someone is in danger; dad heroically saves them while Dave bears witness. This wouldn't be a memory, but more to show that Dave thinks dad is super cool and a hero. But it doesn't really fit into any of the other dream sequences, other than maybe the first one. I have recently watched the Harry Potter movies and dumbledore is a fantastic father figure. Harry tries to emulate Dumbledore's kindness and is awestruck by Dumbledore's level of power. In my opinion, being a policeman is one of the most virtuous professions out there (despite the often negative reputation they get.) So Dave (and the reader) witnessing dad perform a heroic act would be very impactful.
- Dave and dad riding around in the police cruiser with the red and blue lights on. It's going well until Dave asks a serious question and looks over to the driver's seat where he finds his dad suddenly vanished, leaving Dave all alone. Police lights still flooding the scene for xtra dramatic effect. Could represent Dave feeling alone, Dave missing his dad, foreshadows the reason dad died, dad suddenly leaving Dave's life. 

Don't worry, I'll let you know if we ever hit that point!

I'll try and tackle these as you've broken them up as I feel that might help keep myself organized.

Identifying with dad wasn't really an intention. He was there to contrast Dave's fairly muted persona amidst his sadness and give a Dave-biased look on how his father was/acted. He's more hyper in the dream sequences compared to the flashback on Day 15 (outside of the Day 11 dream) because Dave is hyperfocused on 'positive' things when he's thinking of his dad. Essentially, it's a symptom of repressed trauma if a gross oversimplification of what's going on. It's why the dream sequences aren't meant to be indicative of how good a father David was to Dave, because they're inherently tainted with narrator bias.

Day 10 - I feel I answered why this feels off above. This isn't his dad. This wouldn't be how he responded because this is Dave just using his dad as a crutch visually to process his stress. We're introduced to dad as needed Dave clues in that it's a dream by asking the name but takes more comfort in the lie and what he wants to hear than what would actually be sound advice. After all, this is all in his head.

Day 11 - It was meant to be the first hint towards a strained marriage, yes. Perhaps I was playing it a little too subtle with the subtext of them not arguing in front of Dave but Dave still being somewhat aware that something was amiss. Very few people have picked up on what that scene was about so I might need to make it a little more explicit so it makes sense for a later scene.

Day 12 (1) - The suggestion is sound outside the the friendship group functionally splitting apart after the month, so thinking about them together minus him wouldn't resonate correctly with how he's feeling. Something closer would be having them all over and then in a flash they're all gone. Even then it's a little off because he's equating: people he loves going away = friends going away = isolation. Because dad's already gone, his friends are mimicking that gap by also being missing here. Mom's already out of the picture but we'll get to her later.

Day 13 - Ah, not a dream this one. This one he is just consciously thinking back to a memory he had. Again probably a case of me trying to be too clever and subtle but the tonal change is because he's still awake versus in REM sleep. But it's the fault in the memory that leads him back to what happens immediately after with the river.

Day 14 (1) - That line is important but just... not right now. I'm a big fan of narrative echoes, and when you start messing with the topic of morphic resonance the 'when' and the 'how' of that line coming up makes it a little harder to judge if it the payoff is working. 

Day 14 (2) - So the dislike of the living room is due to that being the room his world broke down. Might have been to heavy-handed with Dave's descriptions but I'll review it. The color thing is because a symptom of severe emotional trauma is partial colorblindness. Coupled with what colorblindness hyenas already have exhibited to have IRL I figured this was a good symptom to apply. The lack of knowing how his dad died is because of him actually just not knowing the circumstances.

15 - Why show dad here? I'm not opposed to the idea on principle but I don't know exactly what that'd be adding given Dave's focus is primarily on his route partner instead. 

The two scenes: It's funny that you mention this, as I have a draft of something similar to this but it's not a dream. Something for later when Dave decides to embody the man his father was/wanted him to become once Dave's arc is closer to being done development-wise. We open the game up on Dave being depressed over his father's death, so looking fondly on him being a cool hero doesn't work if the hero is dead. Scene two would be something to lead into the story on Day 14 about hearing the news if only visually being able to capture the red/blue lighting on the scene. It might be a little heavy handed though, but I can draft something up and see how it reads. 

Something I worry about constantly and won't stop worrying about until this game is done, is that my writing quality as far as set ups and pay-offs can't be accurately judged until said pay-offs happen. Narrative echoes that I've put in now don't seem as such because nothing's echoing back just yet. Another case of this would be the recurring lines of "Just give up, Dave. Let whatever happens, happen." Dave got these words from somewhere, but we don't know specifically where yet as the story isn't that far along.

I love bouncing thoughts off with you and hearing the "behind the scenes" of your intentions. This is really fun! xD

Just my thoughts: The player is playing through the eyes and mind of Dave, who clearly adores his dad. If you want the reader to empathize with Dave, I feel it would be important to try and get the reader to understand why Dave loves his dad so much, and to try and get the reader to love dad as much as possible also (Even through the depression dreams). This would definitely make the day 14 payoff so much more painful (in the best way)

Day 10 -
I think you may have misinterpreted me, I totally understand that this isn't how dad might've actually responded to Dave's problem. The reader has no clue how dad would have actually responded. The "perturbing" thing to me was: Is that really the advice Dave thinks his dad would give him in this situation? Because to me the advice just seemed shallow and cliched. This leads me to think Dave believes his dad would only give him such unhelpful advice as, "Oh you think your friends are going to die? Do your best! Everyone dies!". Perhaps I'm just viewing this all wrong!
If you're saying that Dave's subconscious is only giving Dave the advice he wants to hear. I just can't think of "do your best!" as fitting at this moment. (I think this may be our biggest disagreement!)
Also, when I was reading this scene I assumed that dad not knowing the time or date was enough to clue Dave that he was dreaming. 

Day 13 -
Hm... Sometimes I do daydream random scenarios in my head, particularly when I'm really into something. I am also working on my own VN and sometimes when I'm doing homework I'll just space out and imagine an entire fight scene in my head. Although I suppose in daydreams your subconscious isn't messing with you as hard as it might in a dream. But I could definitely see readers being confused as to whether this was a memory or a daydream. Maybe I'm completely wrong and 90% of readers get this easily. 

Day 14 (2) -
For the living room, that makes perfect sense. This makes me feel so dumb because I read that and thought, "Well that's random, why does Dave hate the living room?". And then in the very next flashback scene you hint at it, but I still don't get it. I think maybe if you used the doorway/entrance it might have struck me better? (cuz that's where Dave and the reader find out) But who knows; I probably still wouldn't have made the connection.
I definitely understood the colorblind part, that was one of the more obvious depression motifs. 

Day 15 -
I was just thinking about in movies whenever a character is haunted by something but then comes to accept it and gets closure, the thing that was haunting them appears one last time in a small happy moment before disappearing. So like Dave has accepted his dad is dead, so in his last dream his dad walks out of the door (closure) and is replaced by his friend whom he cares about (new worldview). I know it can seem a little cheesy, but I am a total sap for that type of stuff. Especially considering all the build-up towards Dave getting closure. 

When I kept reading the lines "Just give up, Dave. Let whatever happens, happen." I kept thinking that maybe Jack or dad said it previously and I just missed it. But if you're saying it's from the morphic resonance stuff that would be a pretty juicy revelation. 

I think on the topic of Day 13, people haven't raised issue with it at all. I approached writing it differently and hoped that the change in how David spoke to his son was different enough and less of a caricature to hint that it wasn't just a dream. Plus I'd been fairly consistent on having the dreams flagged as such by stating explicitly Dave was going to sleep. Could be an outlier, might not be, few are actually vocal about this.

Day 14 I can maybe tweak it a little but it's minor enough that I'll just make a note of it and handle it later.

As for Day 15, ah. There's the problem you're possibly running into. Dave isn't magically fixed because he had a cry about his dad, this is more the wound is actually able to start to heal. Much like the comment I made earlier about Dave embodying his dad's actions near the end of his arc, expect something akin to what you suggest much further along the story, maybe near the end to close out Dave's story as a whole. Specifics I'm still drafting out for the greatest cinematic effect possible but the broad strokes are already set.  

I also read the latest build:
I would love to be casually offered a million dollars.
The moment alone with Tyson was very sweet. I like the tension you are building between their relationship, I'm excited to see where that leads.
Nothing really struck out that made me feel the need to put my critic glasses on. 

Well I suppose that's all I had to say! Thanks for the interesting conversation. If you ever want a brutally honest unbiased opinion about something let me know!

(+1)

Always appreciated! If you ever feel like sharing again, I'll absolutely set the time aside to hear you out.

reading this thread was nice because you both went very detailed and in-depth on how things could be improved on