Post by Rafster in Why all gay NSFW media needs to label its erotic content. comments - itch.io

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Rafster2 years ago(+4)

I agree, I also went overdrive and listed all the kinks in my game, some people say that I went a little too far by listing them on the FAQ section of my game's description, but I think it's good to list them all when you have very ... ah... exotic kinks, like watersports, fisting or BDSM in the game.

But I don't list when or how they happen. One advantage I have is that they can be avoided before they happen, so there's also that. Adult games really benefit by being upfront about the content in the game.

J-Raythalos2 years ago (1 edit)

I actually did get to play your game before and I appreciate you listing out all the kinks, but I think what Chylla was referring to emphasizes more on informing the players "if MC can be in certain position with certain character".

Take your game for example, I'd say I would really appreciate it if there could be some sort of mechanisms that prevent / notify players about forced submission scenes, if you choose to play as a dom. A lot of scenes in Dalton's route, like the drug scene with Max and later scenes with Malcom, ignore players' attitude and force you to bottom, and you cannot skip them either because that would result in bad endings. The whole premise of being dominant is that YOU decide how things go, not the other way around, so those compulsory sub scenes can really kill the mood... And I'm not going to start on Garette's route. What's the point of having a dom character when literally every choice is to force you being a sub.

ChellayTiger2 years ago(+3)

It's about both really. I believe it's equally important to list out both the positions of the characters (MC and anyone you can have sex with specifically) as well as the kinks of the game. I put more emphasis on defining whether a game has top, verse, or bottom content because a lot of the erotic games I've played tend to be more or less vanilla with very few kinks. On the other hand, anal sex is almost unavoidable in erotic gay games, even though some people think that shouldn't be the case, therefore the MC is either going to bottom, top, or both. So most advice saying to list out the characters' positions (and who you can have sex with) would be more important than saying to list out all the kinks in the game for most gay erotic creators. Also while I do advocate for kinks being optional, up to and including making every sex scene skippable, that's not what this article is about. If a creator wants to make a kink a thing the player has to do, I'm not going to oppose that, but I would tell them to warn them that such a thing happens before that happens.

Rafster2 years ago

Yeah, my game is on the contrary, very heavy on non-vanilla kinks, I should have mentioned that. That's why I placed so much emphasis on the kink listing, and ways to warn or avoid them.

But positions? honestly, when I play NSFW games I don't even care if the player is top or bottom, I just go with whatever content the game has (there so few of gay games, and even less bara games. Refusing to play a game because it has only bottom/top content doesn't work for me) and I don't even question myself about that, I enjoy both content. Unless the game throws me a kink that I don't like, that's where I start questioning. But positions? I never did.

Maybe my mistake is thinking that everyone is like me. I'm still not sure how to avoid this problem on my game. A comprehensive listing of each character is a no-no, my game is text based sandbox, it has many characters already and with each update the list grows exponentially. I see that this can work on VN that has a handful of characters with CGs.

And putting a big, red warning at the game? If I say my game have only bottom content is a lie. There is top content there. So I'm not sure how to proceed.

ChellayTiger2 years ago (1 edit) (+2)

I can't say I have a perfect solution for you, I will admit for your situation specifically it's hard. If I were you, I'd just say "This game focuses on bottom content, but there is a good amount of top content in it as well. There are some characters in the game who can only top regardless of the position you picked. There are no plans to add scenes for them to the bottom." on the itch.io page. If you can, maybe list out all the total tops (and total bottoms if you have any) in a document that the itch.io page has a link to. An option that warns which characters are total tops (or total bottoms if any) as soon as you meet them would be nice, but maybe that's too complicated.

Rafster2 years ago

I like your suggestion. I'll update the FAQ section of my page and I'll consider making an external spreadsheet or something listing who's a top, bottom or versatile. I still think is kinda spoilery, but if you're warned before going there, I guess it's alright.

The warning as soon as the player meets them... I don't think I'll implement it in my current project. It's kinda like spoiling that this character will have sex with you (I still consider fun to discover that character might have, or not, sex with you. For some characters is pretty clear, for others it isn't), and I'm on a point in the development that is not possible (well, it could be. but doing that for every character would take weeks, and I can't afford that), but it's definitely something to consider when I start my second project, who knows. I'm not closed to that suggestion either.

It's good to have these discussions, there can be solutions for each case, even in complicated ones like mine.

ChellayTiger2 years ago

That's fair, I'm glad you figured something out for your game. One size doesn't fit all as they say.

nackedsnake2 years ago (2 edits) (-1)

I'm still not sold on Top/Bottom / Dom / Sub should be listed, TBH, I don't like how people stereotype "Dominant Top" or "Submissive Bottom", IMO it's too cliché and over-used. That's why "Small on Top" is high on my list (but it kinda goes to the opposite extreme XD)

But I like your idea of an "External documents" that list all the characters and their positions (or at least some hints). So people want can look into, others don't need to worry about being spoiled. IIRC, most Japanese games have this feature. And this will be more useful for WIPs and their backers.

There are few games even have a brief "Official walk-through" (For free, not those sell for more than the game itself), goes into more details about things you might wonder.

Rafster2 years ago (2 edits) (+1)

Regarding dom/sub content:

I don't agree about the whole premise of being dom is about you deciding how things go. Unexpected things happen, sometimes you think you're the top dog but then a bigger one comes. People can outsmart you, or even overpower you, having to suck up until the time is right to show off who's the boss. And that's what I tried to do on Max's scene (by the way, you can blur the heaviest content on that scene, but that was a feature that I included starting on 0.20 so you might have to bear with that on prior versions. I apologize for that). He won over you unfairly with the drug, and then you manage to come to grips with that and give him a proper beating later.

In the scene with Malcolm... remember you're infilitrating on his company. You're not in position to make demands to him. Even if he wanted to bottom, he would have used you like a human-sized dildo. It's not believable that get in his house like a gorilla and start shouting him to bottom for you. That's illogical.

Now, having said that, dom content is not my strong point, but I'm trying to improve it, and certainly I need to improve on that regard. Since it's a recurring theme in my game, you can expect more dom content in the future.

Now, back on the subject of the Top/Bottom positions:

I must admit that when I first read the article, that flew over my head, I didn't even consider it, I always focused on separating the heavier kinks from the vanilla ones, and I thought it was enough. Obviously it isn't.

It's hard to focus on both positions when it comes to the story encounters, especially on those where the MC have to satisfy an specific character and the scene is all bottom (or top, for example on Vince scene), in my game there aren't many scenes that have both positions available. When an unavoidable scene happens, and the MC needs to satisfy the NPC , it's not logical to refuse and then proceed with the scene as if nothing happened. It doesn't work that way.

But it's not the first time a player tells me about that, maybe I should take account on that when you're the one at top or bottom , I'm mostly a bottom and I tend to write a lot leaning to that side. On my next storylines (prison and Ursus) I'll do my best to balance them out. I've been working on that for months, but I still have ways to go.

But I'm not quite sure on how to solve this problem, games can't be perfectly 50/50, Chelay's game is focused on top, mine is on bottom (with some top content on it), and I've come to a point that I can't even list how many characters have X or Y preference because it would a long and spoilery list. I guess I can include a section of the FAQ in my game description about the positions... but I'm going to write it in general. I guess for VNs that doesn't have many characters a complete list would be ideal, but for larger games it isn't.

J-Raythalos2 years ago (3 edits)

I understand where you are coming from. Of course, in real life, even if you are dominant, things frequently don't work your way. But it's a game we are talking about here, it's supposed to be unrealistic, and it should bring the players what they like to see.

It's for sure very logical that, while you are facing bigger monsters like Max, Malcom, or the UFL guys in Garette's route, you don't have much of a saying other than being treated like a bi*ch. But in these cases, the completeness of the storyline is prioritized over players' personal preference, especially that of dom players. I only speak for myself here, but I hardly find any joy in being submissive, not mentioning being subjected to it.

This is not saying that your game is poorly designed, no. Your game is great, but it very much caters toward sub / bottom players. Having a dominant role in the game is kinda pointless... considering that neither of the two love interests allow the player to top / dominate them in any way. The only exceptions are Dalton's two endings, but those are not repeatable, not mentioning to achieve those endings, dom players have to go through a lot of content they don't really like and also cannot avoid. As for Garrette, if I recall corectly, he out right become the player's master upon reaching his endings, which I'm fairly sure is a hard no for any dom player.

This is precisely why I agree with what Chellay said and, as you have mentioned yourself, that many devs are not aware of the fact players do take these position thingys seriously, so it is better to let players know what they can expect, instead of having an angy guy like me ranting about it later. I'm glad to hear that you want to balance it more when writing about Ursus and the content afterwards tho.

I'd suggest you make something like a character profile in game that documents the characters the player have met and give the player an option / warning that saying these profiles can give potential spoilers about the character's content, so they can choose for themselves whether they want to see it or not. Also, like Chellay suggested, perhaps highlight in your game intro that, currently, the game is more bottom content-oriented, but more top content will be added later.

nackedsnake2 years ago

I don't think "MC being dominant" and "YOU decide how things go" is feasible in most games, unless it's a CYOA (Choose Your Own Adventure) game, or the whole idea of the game is to dominant. Other times it'll just kill the flow or become some forced shenanigans, if not impossible to create.

Tho players with strong preferences as yourself, should be able to make educated decisions, I think that's what Chellay is suggesting.

But not listed out right, rather in some external documents that you can choose to see.

J-Raythalos2 years ago (2 edits)

When I said, "you decide how things go", I did not mean it in a literal way where the MC gets to make a decision about everything that's going on in the game, that would indeed be nearly impossible to make. What I meant was, should you choose to play as a dominant MC, your dominance is recognized and respected by the characters in the game. This is totally feasible and it's entirely up to the creator whether they want to write a dominant MC storyline.

And yes, I agree with Chellay on that gay nsfw game devs should make information about what content is in their game public, whether to read it or not is up to the player.