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(+1)

Little late I know, but I gave it a go, took some notes.

Lower Dungeons

I like the new starting weapon selection

Ranged still feels way stronger than melee, but I'll try going for melee.

I can't help but notice that my sword looks different on my back than it does in my hand.

Found a two handed axe already, guess I'll try two-handing.

Thought: Two-handed weapons should get a bigger bonus to damage from your strength than one-handed weapons.

Axe isn't great. The slow attack speed means it's just worse than the sword, which might hit enemies and keep them from hitting you back.

But killing the cult apprentices in one hit and the big mauler dudes in two is pretty satisfying.

I miss being able to hit while standing still with the axe by holding shift. 

It LOOKS like it should work fine, but I'm pretty sure it's impossible to hit anything by clicking into the air, and he usually refuses to attack if I click an enemy.

Forgotten Passageway

Managed to take out the chaos warrior quite handily with a club, a shield, and 4 healing potions.

Lower Dungeons 2

It's nice to be able to switch quickly to my melee weapon for when there's a single invisible fucker.

But the burning floating skull fireball hell remains a job for the bow, and if there's more than one melee enemy, I'm gonna take a lot of damage fighting them in melee, so kiting it is.

It's kinda annoying how the skulls can hide behind walls and pop you. I really wish enemies would get an outline when behind a wall or something. You already have an outline for when you hover the mouse over them that ignores walls. Please, man, I just wanna see the things my dude should have in plain view.

From a melee perspective, the width of the doors becomes a huge issue. Like, back in Diablo 1, you had one-character wide doors, so you could use them as choke points to avoid getting surrounded. It was an absolutely vital tactic. Here in the tower though, there's always plenty of room for enemies to flank you and you don't have any AoE attacks or crowd control to deal with them. I'm not saying every door should be a choke point, but they're sorely missed.

Bloodlust affects all damage output? Considering the theme, shouldn't it only affect melee? I'm not complaining, mind.

I found Vedomot. Since she's a horrible demon, I of course try to kill her through the bars, but she ignores the arrows.

If you want her to not be killable, you should put a force field around her in a summoning circle or something, or have her talk from behind a wall where the player can't see her.

The way the ranged enemies just hang back and don't chase you is another problem for melee.

Like if you could lure them closer, that'd be one thing, but when a bunch of them spawn and can pepper you with attacks from every direction as you come at them, it seems impossible.

Anyway, by losing a few HP permanently with the cauldron spell and using my bow , I managed to reach the stairs up.

But I'm gonna go see how Vedomot betrays me first.

Aaand I'm dead. Kiting enemies that are faster than you doesn't work so well. It's nice that she's got a speed advantage on you though, means ranged can't get so complacent.

Might try another run later with a wand since I didn't get to see much of the new stuff and I'm told they're the new hotness.



You already know this, but melee, and especially two-handed melee, really seems to need a buff. The damage output is about the same once you account for melee having to walk up to the enemy first, and even if it were much better, it'd be hard to outweigh the ~20x damage you take from fights from being in melee and needing to level an additional stat. They need knockback, or a low-level stunning weapon art, or much better hit rate, or guaranteed interrupts, or hitting multiple enemies, or something to make them viable. I also think making two-handed weapons so slow compared to one-handed is overkill - you're already giving up on a defensive bonus from a shield or a stat bonus from an effigy, so it's fine if they're just plain better than every other option when it comes to actually killing things.

I think making ranged weapons slower and harder hitting would be a good idea. Not only does it seem silly that you can nock an arrow, draw your bow, aim and loose in the same amount of time that it takes you to whack someone with your sword, it'd be a good balancing factor against kiting all the time. Mayybe lower base bow damage, but let it scale with strength, to differentiate them from crossbows in a way that isn't attack speed?

Maybe you can make it so ranged enemies don't attack you through other enemies? Right now the impenetrable volleys of fireballs are a little frequent.

it's never too late for feedback! thanks for taking the time to write this out. i'll reply to the points that stand out the most, since a lot of talk has already been covered (probably by you as well) in the threads

>It's kinda annoying how the skulls can hide behind walls and pop you. I really wish enemies would get an outline when behind a wall or something. You already have an outline for when you hover the mouse over them that ignores walls. Please, man, I just wanna see the things my dude should have in plain view.

will try this out, seems like a good idea. having multiple outlines might be scary, but what if i used the fill instead of the outline? hmm....

>there's always plenty of room for enemies to flank you and you don't have any AoE attacks or crowd control to deal with them. I'm not saying every door should be a choke point, but they're sorely missed

this is a Mauler consequence. i think enemies will see some reorganizing, and with only humanoids in some floors, the doors will shrink to fit that. this is still spitballing, but i'll give it a go.

>If you want her [Vedomot] to not be killable, you should put a force field around her in a summoning circle or something, 

damn, good idea. i already have a forcefield made for the later levels anyway. i'll give it a try.

>Like if you could lure them closer, that'd be one thing, but when a bunch of them spawn and can pepper you with attacks from every direction as you come at them, it seems impossible.

this exists. Spitters in the bug-levels do that. i should add that to archers, (or skulls) so that one enemy type hangs back , and the other chases. good idea.

>Maybe you can make it so ranged enemies don't attack you through other enemies? Right now the impenetrable volleys of fireballs are a little frequent.

i like this, will try it out. it used to be the case that goth girls would friendly-fire everyone, perhaps it's time to bring that back

there is a lot of work to do for me after this patch, but rest assured melee will be getting some much needed love.

have you tried the 2H combat arts? final blow is quite strong, tomo can kill her alter-ego in 3 hits with it!

thanks again for taking the time to play and write out such thoughtful feedback, i really appreciate it!

(+1)

>Have you tried 2h combat arts

I did, but I didn't seem like it was particularly effective. Like, it costs mana, still might not hit, and didn't seem to do that much more damage. Maybe for a third playthrough at some point.


Notes from my wand playthrough:

Wand and shield is a cool combo that you don't see a lot, but it's a breeze compared to melee or the bow I used last time. Like wow, I went straight up through to the halls of pain without a hitch just constantly leveling up my int to up my wand damage.

Halls of Pain

Fleshpriests look nice, but they're super annoying to fight with the way they slow you while milling about at high speed.

I can't believe you took out the temptresses but left in the ghoul recolors smdh

Possible bug report: I keep hearing a loud "clank" noise when enemies attack me from the front, and I think it might be because the shield weapon art counts as being constantly active, without costing any mana.

It kept happening even after I unequipped the shield.

After reloading, I seem to be taking a lot more damage than I was before, I'm not hearing the clank, and I can actually do the block shield art as intended.  So probably a bug.

I wasn't even bothering to kite enemies previously and still had an inventory full of potions.

Found a book of Mana Shield, which means my int build finally has a use for mana aside from bloodlust. Using mana on offensive magic seems silly when wands kill everything just fine anyway.

And now I found a ring of mana steal, which means I'm now just about invincible.

The burrows

Found a tome of haste. It doesn't seem very powerful. Being faster is nice, but since you're already faster than all the enemies, it doesn't give you any new options in combat. I mostly just use it to make backtracking more convenient, but maybe it'd be more useful on a level with faster enemies, like the faceless from level 3

I didn't expect much trouble, but I did encounter a Spitter boss. The boss itself wasn't a problem, but his squad of 10-20 spitters that all start shooting at me from beyond visual range when I turn the corner made it really tricky to kill anything without losing a ton of health. Fortunately my inventory was full of potions.

Skeleton Pit

I hate liches I hate liches I hate liches I hate liches.

Enticing potions aren't very enticing if they start dropping alongside greater health potions that do the same amount of healing with no downside.

I had a fight in the room with the golden goblin statue and its hitbox kept me from picking up some of the items that were dropped.

I found a wand and a staff down here, and the staff seems much weaker. It's got more base damage, but the slower attack speed means you get to apply your int bonus less, and you don't get an off-hand weapon.

Summon great snake is a fun spell. Having the summon be a monster that doesn't appear as an enemy adds a lot to it.

I'd like 'em to be a little more aggressive though.

Breeding grounds

Huh? Wait, the loading screen when leaving the skeleton pit said the breeding grounds, but I'm back in the burrows. 

Breeding Grounds 1 for real

Very cramped, which is leads to interesting synergies with my new snake buddies. Enemies don't seem to aggro them unless they actually get attacked, so they're more useful for keeping the melee bugs away from me by blocking narrow passages without anyone attakcing.

Had a wall piece not load in, meaning I got to stare into the void.

This place really IS full of bugs! I tried unequipping my shield and most of my gear exploded off of me as my mind stat blasted down to -2

It happens consistently when I reload and try again.

Anyway, continuing on.

Now that I'm paying attention, there's a LOT of missing walls.

Breeding Grounds 2

IDK if the breeding grounds are so interesting that players will wanna do two whole levels of them.

Met a special enemy of the flying buggers called "count queen of flies", which is kinda awkward sounding.

Paladin Basecamp

I was not expecting the paladins to be like actual christian-cross-wearing templars. Seems a little weird when you're fighting weird made up cults for the most part.

Anyway, on to side quest.

Lost Corridors

Think I might've tabbed out at a bad time and broke the loading screen.

It worked fine after reloading the autosave though.

New models look nice in action.

Truth seekers are annoying for a wand-user, but fortunately my snake buddies have no such problems, because I haven't got the stats to use any melee weapons I could find up here. I usually just wait behind a wall while they get snaked to death.

Oh so the temptress got a new model instead of being removed entirely.

I got careless, died and reloaded my autosave, and my snakes were still there. That's weird.

Is attack rating working alright? I tried equipping a ring that says it gives me +9 ttack rating but I can't see any change in my stats screen.

Every enemy here has a gimmick intended to beat ranged players, but the only one I'm really scared of is the temptress: I've died like 8 times on this one level and every time, it's because I get rushed by temptresses. 

They're hard to notice before they're already in your face because they're small and dark, I can't disengage even with haste 2, and they can take off half my health before dying. Sometimes I get lucky and one of my snakes distracts them and they crumple like paper.

I think they'd be fine as glass cannon mooks if they had less defense. Trying to click on one as she's rushing towards you at sonic speeds is hard enough, but having them proceed to ignore a lot of your attacks that looks dead on gets frustating.

The slug dudes sometimes bug out, teleport and rotate around a point. I can't tell what's causing it.

I got killed by it once, my only death that wasn't from a temptress - a slugman decided to rotate around behind me, told me it was "nothing personnel", and blasted me with lightning. (I ain't even mad, that was amazing).

Pokkan died surprisingly easily, since I saw her coming and had time to think about setting up all my buffs beforehand.

I think your end screen's "time played" counter is busted.


(1 edit)

whoa, congrats on beating the whole thing!

thank you for taking the time to do another complete run. it really warms my heart knowing people are interested enough in the game to play it multiple times! truly the best of feels.

>I can't believe you took out the temptresses but left in the ghoul recolors smdh

i can, she was my least favorite model. had all kinds of issues!!

>Possible bug report: I keep hearing a loud "clank" noise when enemies attack me from the front, and I think it might be because the shield weapon art counts as being constantly active, without costing any mana.

yeah - it's something that i'm trying to get to the bottom of. no clue what causes it, but it can also completely freeze (!!!) your movement. it's awful.

>I hate liches I hate liches I hate liches I hate liches.

reflect projectile is your friend

>Enticing potions aren't very enticing if they start dropping alongside greater health potions that do the same amount of healing with no downside.

they're randomly rolled at the start of each run. there's 4 (i think?) random rolled potions per game. i assume this one was the heal for 60 but drain mana one

>This place really IS full of bugs! I tried unequipping my shield and most of my gear exploded off of me as my mind stat blasted down to -2

i hate inventories so much it's unreal. bugfix coming through as we speak.... i hope

>Every enemy here has a gimmick intended to beat ranged players, but the only one I'm really scared of is the temptress: I've died like 8 times on this one level and every time, it's because I get rushed by temptresses. 

yeah - i'm experimenting with some anti-ranged sentiments right now.

the slug-hug-bug is very annoying, but i'll solve it later since i think only like 1% of all players make it that far, and it's usually other devs.

i have a LOT of bugs on my plate it would seem. hoping  to cover all of these to make the next DD a lot less frustrating to deal with.

thanks again for the playthroughs and detailed feedback. i will address all these issues (and the ones mentioned previously) ASAP!

>i assume this one was the heal for 60 but drain mana one

Yeah, that's the one.


Anyway, I saw you'd done a hotfix so I thought I might as well try out a quick 2-handed run.

Lower Dungeons

Found a virile axe of shock, so two-handed playthrough is definitely go.

I slept a bit on the weapon art - +20 attack rating is pretty great.

Forgotten Passageway

Ran into a special enemy ghoul that I could barely hit even with the weapon art, so I'm down to 3 health potions. Great.

Found a ring of life steal so this run might just go well though, especially if I pair it with this fast-attack club I found.

And the red knight dopped an axe with more life steal. I wonder if that means I'll regen 2 health per hit?

Lower Dungeons 2

It's still really tough going, but with 2 hp recovered per hit, it's doable.

The gates in the prison bars here are a good size for choke points, for reference.

Found a spear that I'm contractually obligated to try out. It's very short for a two-handed spear, looks kinda goofy.

It's got really good base damage for the attack rate though. I probably should level agility enough for the multi-strike to get more use out of life steal, but dammit, I like axes.

Vedomot was too shy to come out, so I guess I'm moving on up.

Brief Respite

It's nice to ahve the sun cultists be a threat for once.

A problem I'm having with melee combat that I didn't have with ranged is the difficulty in clicking the same dude in a mob of enemies consistently to focus your damage. With ranged you can just shift-click in the general direction, but with melee you actually have to hit the right guy. What's worse, clicking in the general direction like you would with a bow makes your dude do an attack animation, but it's a trap: as far as I can tell you can't actually hit anything by doing so.

Finally died to a boss goat lady.


Conclusion; Once I understood that the W weapon art was more useful as a hit bonus than a damage bonus, I had a much easier time of things.

I'd still say it's a lot weaker than playing with a wand or bow though - even with two really lucky item drops giving me life steal, I didnt' get past the sun cultist area because I simply can't avoid damage like I can with ranged weapons.

>Vedomot was too shy to come out, so I guess I'm moving on up.

was there a bug of some sort? she didn't want to leave or you didn't interact with her? if bug, did you save/load/try again/return to the stairs? any more details about this?

as for the balance, this was merely a bandaid patch since i was fixing something else so i tweaked some numbers. at least you were able to reach the halls, which is probably more than what was possible beforehand.


>What's worse, clicking in the general direction like you would with a bow makes your dude do an attack animation, but it's a trap: as far as I can tell you can't actually hit anything by doing so.

the way this goes is that if the game doesn't think youre interacting with an enemy, you'll just play an attack animation without any intent on hitting things - there isn't a collider check or anything, since i didn't think you'd need one. it means you can't do a pre-swing where an enemy would walk into an attack animation or something. will need to look into this further.

thanks again for playing... again! melee upgrades soon..

(+1)

>was there a bug of some sort?

No, no, sorry, just saying she didn't spawn.

oh right

she's actually quite a rare spawn. something like 1 in 10 chance to get her. most players will go through the game only seeing her name on the end-screen - they're missing out!