Post by OttifantSir in Evermore comments

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I see you're talking about my comment, which the creator apparently has deleted.

I will be short, and not as crass, so people know what you are talking about:

I feel like Melanie is the main character of the story, because everything MC does, he either has to check with her to see if she permits it, or she outright orders you to do things, while always humiliating the MC.

I understand that others don't see it like that, but what saddens me even more than being disappointed with the game, is to see that while my point of view is not that of the majority, it isn't even allowed.

I sincerely respect authors that allows contradictory, critical or even harsh comments to stay on their game page, because it gives a broader viewpoint for others to judge the game. At least, I always look for both the best and the worst ratings/comments, to see if there's something that someone else noticed that might change my anticipation going in, possibly making it a better experience.

Any way, I said I was going to be short. That's my take, and as long as people argue and debate against my review, not me, I don't mind being called out, so I hope the creator will allow this comment to stay.

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PrometheusEVN302 days ago (2 edits) (+2)

The reason I deleted it is not because the comment was critical, but because of how you originally went about saying it. There is a difference between criticism and throwing insults.

Your point of view is allowed, just say it constructively. If I wanted to stop you from speaking entirely, devs have the option to ban an account from commenting and that's what I'd have done if it wasn't allowed.

That being said, if that's how you really feel about her and the story, then you've completely misunderstood the story, her character motivations and fears, as well as her relationship to the MC and their interactions.

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TheRealArma301 days ago(+1)

Personally, I wouldn't pay them much mind. Seems they often miss the point or misunderstand (or just outright miss the point of) a number of characters and the story being told in general.

I stumbled upon them from another comment which lead me to look at their collections to see what they thought of other titles. Wanted to see why they feel the way they do for games they have in their "Games to stay away from" collection, especially knowing that a few of them are better than most VN's you can find here. Kind of expected better.

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Estharon298 days ago (2 edits) (+2)

In my experience, many creators can't tell the difference between criticism and insult. Many also can't tell the difference between being misunderstood and failing to portray their story as they intended.

I recall just one such case not so long ago, I think it was on a game called "young again", where a commenter pointed out things that were objectively present in the game and told he "misunderstood".

Now, normally, I'd say that the benefit of doubt applies, but deleting the comment tilts the scales in his favor. You don't delete something and slander the person when you can just let the facts disprove it, you delete things when you can't.

Now, speaking objectively, does the MC have to get permission for everything from Melanie, gets ordered around by Melanie, and is humiliated by her? If the answer is yes, then you cannot say that he's misunderstanding.

It's been a while since I played, and I don't even remember which character to put with that name. Which means I'll replay eventually. When i do, and if I find the instances he mentioned objectively present in the game, I'll correct my rating to reflect my disdain for censoring criticism and gaslighting.

P.S.

Okay, it took me about five minutes to replay the beginning and regain my memory. Now, you're both right and wrong. [Edit: I was wrong about this, he's mostly wrong.]

Melanie DOES order him to her room, she IS having trouble respecting his boundaries and pushing him to reveal his business to her. She IS acting in a controlling manner, that's objective fact. ~~What is not true is that she does it all the time, and that she is humiliating him, as far as I recall~~ [Edit: I did not recall correctly, she actually does humiliate him and continues to act in a controlling manner]. Aside from that, she has a very good reason to be that pushy, and she's acting in his interest.

So, he didn't quite misunderstand, he's just more sensitive to certain behavioral patterns than you are. That's what's called a difference in values, leading to a difference in judgment regarding the same objective facts.

As a side note, you'll have to tell me what your beef with Chris Evans is. That scene is so weird and out of place. Why waste narrative space on a negative cameo when it only achieves to make you look petty?

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PrometheusEVN291 days ago (1 edit) (+2)

TLDR: If you haven't read the full original comment, don't jump to conclusions about why it was removed, simply because this new one is better worded and more reasonable. I seek out criticism because it's the best way to improve and learn what your faults are, but I won't sit and take crass and disrespectful comments.

Yeah she's pushy at the start and it ends there.

His new response has been much more reasonable in how he chose to criticize the character, so of course it seems ridiculous that I would remove his comment now that the old one is gone and this is all that's left to see.

I read and ask for criticism frequently, I believe it is important to hear it if I want to know where I can improve things. The writing quality of 0.6 would be the same as 0.1-0.2 otherwise. One community member, that I'm now friends with, came at me with lots of criticism and I heard him out and had a discussion about all the criticism even if parts were harsh. To this day he still criticizes the game when something is off.

I also search "Evermore" on other games' discord servers to see if there is any criticism I might need to take into account to improve myself and the game. People tend to be much more honest and not sugarcoat things when they don't know I'll see it.

Criticism is not something I'm averse to even if it's not fun to hear at times, but the original comment did not fall under criticism. It was rage and hate laced with occasional moments of actual criticism. It even begins with the disclaimer that follows (An excerpt, the actual disclaimer is longer):

"I don't want anyone to hate on authors, even me. With that said, I know I am human, and therefore can be crass in my comments, but no matter if I hate the game, I don't hate the author. I sincerely respect authors who allows critical, and sometimes even harsh, comments to stay on their page. I try to write my reviews and comments without any major spoilers,, but be warned, there might be some. Alright, enough self-promotion and emotional blackmail."

He clearly knows that he sometimes goes over the line in how he chooses to write what he doesn't like about games. I respect the attempt at emotional blackmail to keep his less respectful or tactful comments up, but I won't leave a blatantly crass and volatile comment up just because of it.

If he had properly voiced his criticism the first time, I would have asked him what he meant exactly. Something I frequently do on my server or other servers when I see people criticizing the game.

If I wanted to prevent him from ever talking here again, I also could have. Itch.io literally asks you if you want to ban a member after you delete their comment. I chose not to, so that if he comes back, he can leave criticism properly instead of farming outrage and making the comments hostile place. I also could have immediately removed this new comment (which lead to a negative review), but I left it up because it was more reasonable in how he chose to word things, even though the comment exposes the fact I removed his original comment and I knew how some might interpret it.

I understand why you would lower your rating of my game after seeing his newest comment but I don't think it's a fair move to make when all you get to see is the revised comment after his last one was deleted for hurling insults at a character in an unhinged manner and diagnosing them with a mental illness they clearly do not have. Even someone else who commented after labeled it as "that totally weird comment by that one guy (you know who I'm talking about)". (Btw, this isn't me begging you to raise your rating, I'm just explaining the situation, your rating is up to you and out of my control even if I disagree with the reasoning. Reviews are not something a creator can curate to their liking.)

In the future, if I delete a comment, I will keep the comment saved somewhere to avoid this exact situation. That way if they come and complain that they were deleted, I can point out the exact quotes that caused the removal and show proof that I wasn't just butthurt that someone criticized my game.

Chris Evans side note:

Tbh I was fucking around and never expected anyone to actually like and play the game, since I had no experience writing or rendering. I have nothing against it but there is a story reason for it that will be explained down the line. I will be reworking the scene though to make it less goofy and just have him be unhinged in a creepy way.

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Estharon244 days ago(+1)

How did I not see this reply? Anyways, there's a lot to unpack there.

"If you haven't read the full original comment, don't jump to conclusions about why it was removed"

For starters, I did not jump to conclusions. I formed an opinion based on all available information. You can't purposely delete a comment and then act like others are jumping to conclusions for not reading something you actively prevented them from reading.

"Yeah she's pushy at the start and it ends there."

I can't imagine why you would tell such a blatant falsehood. Yes, I only replayed the first few minutes back then, but it's obvious that I would eventually continue playing and see her continued controlling behavior.

She's pushy until she's in control, and then she continues to exert control, but she never stops acting in a controlling manner. Throughout the story, she is constantly playing power games, making the MC do her bidding while denying his desires. She tells him that she'll wait until he's ready to tell her, but then forces him anyway by ambushing and tricking him. She wants to blow him, but won't allow him to touch her afterwards. She makes him eat her, then sends him away blueballed. Those are objectively occurring events in the game, and they aren't the only ones.

"I read and ask for criticism frequently, I believe it is important to hear it if I want to know where I can improve things."

If you seek criticism, you're not doing it visibly. All I see here is censorship and deflection. You couldn't even answer the simple question of why Chris Evans is in the game. I did not call the scene goofy, and I did not ask for a story reason, but asked "What is your beef with Chris Evans?" In other words: Why you would choose to include a real life person in your fantasy game, why would you pick this particular person, and why would you depict a real person with such malice? Why would you break my immersion just to take a jab at someone? All that scene is doing is taking away from your own story and making it about him. It isn't goofy either, it's just blatantly malicious and immersion-breaking. I don't care for your beef with real-life celebrities, I just want to play a game without real-world issues breaking into the illusion. The same goes for the TV screens, by the way. There's no reason I should have to see controversial news lines from Fox and CNN in a game I'm playing for fun.

"I also could have immediately removed this new comment (which lead to a negative review)...."

"I don't think it's a fair move to make when all you get to see is the revised comment..."

His new comment did not lead to my negative review, your censorship did. It is precisely because you took my ability to see the old comment that I took away two of five stars. I literally told you that, so don't pin your own fault on him.

"It was rage and hate laced with occasional moments of actual criticism."

Which is admitting that there was actual criticism that you deleted. Maybe he was choosing strong words, so what. The rage and hate part is just your guess, unless you have a way to telepathically read his feelings. Whether it was you or him that was raging, I can't tell. Of course, I could look at his words to see if your interpretation has merit - if you hadn't deleted them.

"hurling insults at a character in an unhinged manner"

Again, I've seen too many authors get legitimate criticism and mistake it for insults to believe this without seeing the exact criticism in full context.

"diagnosing them with a mental illness they clearly do not have."

That is not as clear as you may think. Let me guess, it was probably something like borderline or narcissism? You see, she is objectively exhibiting behavior patterns that match those of a narcissistic personality disorder. Being manipulative, trying to control every situation, playing power games, not respecting boundaries, giving commands rather than requests... You can look it up yourself, she is checking the boxes.

If her objectively occurring actions match those of a narcissist, it's not an insult to call her one, just fair criticism. Maybe you didn't intend to write her that way, but that is how she's written. Frankly, the more remarkable part is that you don't see her behavior for what it is. How does that seem normal to you?

"In the future, if I delete a comment, I will keep the comment saved somewhere to avoid this exact situation. That way if they come and complain that they were deleted, I can point out the exact quotes that caused the removal and show proof that I wasn't just butthurt that someone criticized my game."

That is not how it works. If you delete a comment that contains criticism and offensive language, and quote the offensive language, then all you have effectively removed is valid criticism, while contradicting the reason for removal by posting it yourself. Besides, once you delete a comment, we have no way of telling whether the quotes are presented in the proper context, and if they were real to begin with. It doesn't give you credibility to hide a person's words from us, and then cherry pick which parts we are allowed to see. It is quite the opposite.

So, let's see what you do with this criticism, and how much of it you will try to frame as insults. Personally, I hope at least some of it is getting through to you.

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