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Beginning Feedback

A topic by puroseki created Aug 23, 2021 Views: 883 Replies: 17
Viewing posts 1 to 11

was not sure what to title this lol

Right off the bat, wanna say, this game is so cool. I love the art and the vibe, and how every character controls the same but the pieces give them different gimmicks, it's all so sick. I spent like 3 hours just doing matches with my friend online, trying out characters and generally having fun.

Of course, after playing it for 3 hours, I have a few thoughts, so might as well give some feedback! First things I wanna say are what I consider the biggest changes I'm thinking about.

  • Music - Obviously as it is right now, the game is a little quiet. Long bouts of silence, with the only real sound being when a piece kills another piece. I think if the game had something in the vein of Psycard, upbeat but "thinky" music, it would be really cool. Maybe a title theme and then a song for each character? Even just a handful of songs to play randomly during battles would be nice.
  • Tutorial - When you open the game up, you're greeted with Single, Versus, and Online. A new player will pick Single pretty much every time. Then you see Story, Endless, and Puzzle. Story is the obvious choice. Then, before you know it, you're in a chess battle with non-standard pieces you don't understand, and the turns are Timed!! It's just a tad overwhelming. Puzzles are almost like a tutorial for some characters, seeing as they teach you to use their pieces, but it's still not perfect, and new players aren't drawn to them. If there was a Tutorial battle, maybe something like a Jupiter vs Jupiter battle with scripted moves and pop up windows explaining things on screen, I think that would really help people out!
  • Escape Key - I noticed when you do anything in the game, you're kinda locked in. If I pick a character against a CPU, accidentally click Endless instead of Puzzle, or if a Timeout happens in multiplayer because someone took too long on character select, my only real option is either click random things to get to a battle then forfeit it, or close and relaunch the game. It would be nice to have reopen the game less.
  • Puzzle Editor - Okay I know making a whole editor to make chess puzzles in this would be a lot of effort probably. I just really like the puzzles and wish there were more, but having the ability to plop pieces down, make a puzzle, and show it to a friend, would be really cool. I'd say this is less vital than the other three above.

That's the general, main game feedback out of the way. I guess next would be some more specific, balancing type feedback, but I don't have much, and plus I'm not even good at normal chess so I sure don't know how to balance XESS, so take it all with a grain of salt.

  • Metonym - oh my god shes so weird. I know I shouldn't expect to understand a "Tricky" character right off the bat, and her whole gimmick is having weird moving pieces, but they are SO weird. Besides the weird movement, most of them also can't really move backwards or side to side very well, only forward in weird ways. And I know the flow is to go forward then pull back with Hook, but what that means is very often, if you want to use a useful piece more than once, you have to give up a lot of turns just getting a piece back in position. Also, her second power to just Win if she gets 50 blood, her pieces don't seem very capable of gathering blood efficiently. Using hook starts to use up the little blood you get, and usually her pieces are diving wildly long distances to kill things, and aren't able to move to safe spaces with blood on them most of the time with their weird patterns. Again, grain of salt, she's obviously a hard character, just my starting observations.
  • Spectre - Normal chess but two special pieces, I can dig it. My one note: their first power doesn't make sense to me. Castling on Ancient King makes sense, but this one... you don't start with any pawns on your row, so to use this you inherently have to put your king out there in battle, not to mention pawns aren't known for being very versatile to position. That's my only real gripe with this guy though.
  • Kristian Maria - is she wearing panties over her pants???

I don't have much to say about other characters, either from lack of playing or just nothing meaningful to say. I've played every character at least once, but that doesn't mean I fully understand how they work or anything like that. Anyway, last thing I have to note is a short list of a few bugs I noticed, or just weirdness I encountered.

  • This happened to both me and my friend, on separate puzzles. We loaded up into a puzzle, clicked a piece to see it's movement, and the game crashed. Happened to me on a Metonym puzzle, and it hit her on a That Guy puzzle.
  • In online multiplayer, multiple times, we would make a move right at the end of the turn timer and it would desync the multiplayer. It ended up just leaving a long wait at the end of our turns until it synced back up, but it was just a bit awkward.
  • On the topic of online multiplayer, when you start a match, one player picks a character with a 30 second timer, then the other player picks a character and a relic on a 60 second timer, then player one picks a relic. What this leads to is a long period after player one's pick where it looks like nothing is happening. It doesn't really matter, but I think it would be nice to update between the second players character and relic picks, and give it all a consistent 30 second timer on every pick.

Uh, I think I'm out of things to say. Overall I really really love this game, sorry for rambling! Glad to see it come out, especially with the kickass art it has.

also i have no idea how to pronounce XESS lol

Two more things I just noticed while doing puzzle after puzzle while listening to anime music.

  • Mazarin's Puzzle 4 is set up as if you need to use the few Demon Fire pieces you have carefully to reach the enemy king, but in actuality you can clear the puzzle in three moves by ignoring it all because you have the range to just get them from the other side of the wall.
  • Metonym's Puzzle 4 SEEMS to be that the enemy king is unreachable, and you need to farm 50 blood and win using the instantwin ability. The ability doesn't work when you try to use it though. If there's a way to reach the enemy king that I'm just not seeing, ignore this.
Developer(+1)

Thanks for the feedback!

Music: This is the part of game making I can't really do well myself... Maybe someone else at Ludosity can do it for me, but they're all pretty busy at the moment.

Tutorial: I feel that as long as you can learn a game by playing for a while, a few matches, then no tutorial is really needed (there's a joy in learning after all)... That said, some pointers might be good like "these are your spells" or things like that. Perhaps the first story battle should be untimed and have hints. Unfortunate that Ancient King isn't the first match in story.

Escape Key: Literally pressing escape or backspace could be a good option to add... You see, the reason there's no back arrow on character select is that it visually doesn't fit anywhere without ruining the screen visually... lol

Puzzle Editor: Actually might not be that hard to do, I could see it happening in the future.

Metonym: A lot of characters are mostly made on a whim, hoping to balance them after they've seen some play... So she could totally be bad right now!
Maybe she could benefit from Gogo Stones (puts more blood on the board) or Sacrifice (to pull units back without blood cost)?

Spectre: True, I hadn't really thought that one through... If Spectre turns out to be bad, that would be a good target for a buff then.

Kristian Maria: Panties on top of tights is the new thing, you heard it here first!

I've had this puzzle crash reported from someone else as well, it's very puzzling.

I'll look into the near-timeout desync, I have a decent idea of the problem there.

As for the wait there, the thing is this online (my first!) is built sort of on top of the "play by message/e-mail" system where you send codes back and forth. It's too annoying to fix, but I've learned my lesson for future games.

And it's pronounced Excess! Because there's just too much of it ^^

Developer

As for the puzzles...

You're right, I guess I didn't consider Mazarin has extra HP... I'll see if I can fix it.

But Metonym 4 is doable without the spell! There's one unit that has exactly one way of reaching the king...

(1 edit)

Recorded the two ways I've found to cheese Mazarin's 4th puzzle 👏

Found a few more things I noticed!

  • In online multiplayer, the game doesn't properly display how the opponent uses blood. It usually doesn't increase the counter when they pick it up, and it doesn't show the price increase when the use a skill. It does work properly on their screen, so they can't cheat or anything, but it does mean unless you pay the utmost attention, you don't really know how much blood the opponent has and what they can do with it.
  • Spectre Puzzle 4. I love this puzzle... but, even though the proper solution is to use Ghosting and move the pawn so you can win, you can also get 12 blood and win using Ghost March. Or, you could do that, but the game doesn't let you use Ghost March.
  • On that note, a lot of puzzles you can get enough blood to use a skill but the game won't let you use them. It would be nice if it had like, a big red X or something over the skill to show it's not legal for the puzzle, but then I guess that has the side effect of giving the solution away a bit if a puzzle allows a skill.
  • Tokinko Puzzle 2. The layout of the puzzle implies a need to move the silver piece around killing things, then moving up to the top right to be a gold piece, but in actuality, all you need to do it move silver up right, move the lance up, then take out the enemy king. This puzzle can be fixed by moving the king and lance section in the bottom right over one tile to the right, so that even if the silver can get in, it can't take out the king, only a gold can.
  • Cosmo Dragon Puzzle 3. I don't actually know how this puzzle is meant to be tackled, because instead of using most of the dragons pieces in any clever way, in four moves you can move a right claw up into a pawn, the king attacks it, then do the same move with the other claw and take it out immediately.
  • Kristall Puzzle 4. Instead of tackling the absolute chess army, you can swap a sentinel to the front, zap the three center pawns and the rightmost knight, and the the sword in the center can just walk in and take the king out. Not sure how intended this is, being able to use a sentinel without the opponent taking turns will pretty much always make a puzzle go like this I think.
  • Wildstar Puzzle 4. Move the center piece a tile to the left. Move the right slash to where it used to be. Now it can slash up twice and take out the king, bypassing everything. Potentially intended, but pointing this one out just in case it isn't.

Oh and as a general update, after playing more matches, Metonym's best and most versatile piece is definitely the skull piece, and I would say her worst piece is the wet fish. The fish basically only exists to awkwardly stab a faraway piece, and then after that is almost never worth hooking back, can't attack again, and will probably never move again. Not to mention its horizontal movement at your home base is so small compared to all the other pieces doing big wacky jumps across the board to kill things, it just feels to me like the weakest link.

(+1)

wow, this game is really really fun and I've been thinking about it nonstop for the past few days. 

i guess ill treat this as sort of as a general feedback thread, if puroseki doesn't mind:

found out that the "Summon Anything" spell from Nesting Bats seems to be a cause of desyncs. (i.e. user generates a Poison Storm, opponent sees 500 Points). I later took a deathblow by the "500 Points" doing a Poison Storm type of move which then proceeded to freeze the timer and the game, functionally.

i'm not great at normal chess either, and haven't played this game enough to really feel out a meta yet but just from immediate kneejerk reaction, united earth feels really, really strong: the artillery basically invalidates any non-center advances (except for some really wonky characters like Metonym who's capable of massive jumps anywhere), and to top it off they have a very formidable offense with FOUR battleships that are basically just queens but with +1 HP.

It's fair to say that other characters also have some seemingly "OP" or powerful setups but just to make one very similar comparison to show the power difference- Kristian Maria can struggle to protect her summoning circles for several waves with her somewhat mediocre pawns, which eventually will turn into 3 queen-like units that give her the edge to go on offense- compare this to UE starting off with an extremely fortified artillery defense and 4 tanky queen-like units at the very beginning of the match.

I've been taking a huge liking to Tokinko and probably play her the most (against CPUs mostly, because I only have a couple of friends I've showed this game to). She seems to really really lack mobility or even the capability to protect her own units.
- At the beginning you need to move the gold/silver stars forward right away to be able to fortify from any immediate center attacks. This is basically the only form of fortification I can think of that Tokinko has access to. Her bishop side is also a free kill spot because unlike the Rook, the Bishop can't immediately move to fortify the front line, it can only go for the early Dragon Horse (which as I'll say later is basically her only built in offense).
- The needles are never in a good position to do anything useful. At best they work as a game of chicken in a Tokinko mirror match but at that point you're just playing shogi anyways. They can't even really contest against a Piercing Sword which frankly seems like the only use I have for it. They do allow for the butterfly in front of them to advance a lot more dangerously but in general there's just not enough things in front of the needle for it to be useful.
- You basically only have a bishop and a rook for offense and if you lose them then you are just screwed to basically pawns and slightly better pawns. Which by the way, are difficult to actually upgrade into gold stars because they are easily the weakest pawns in the game with just 1 option for well, doing anything. They are much easier to get their upgrade state compared to Chess pawns, but frankly a gold star in a place the opponent has probably already yielded control over is not going to swing the game.
- Almost all the games I've won with Tokinko were carried by Nesting Bats or Gaia Bloom. She just doesn't have the mobility it takes to contest against faster, stronger units and her starting setup is full of really shallow holes that can be poked by anyone going on offense. I basically have to try to go full offense with my relic in order to make the game work. Sometimes I'm able to get a 2 turn Dragon Horse but frankly even that doesn't do much compared to say, a Gaia Head. The options I see myself having boil down to: attempt to get an early Dragon Horse, attempt to 3 turn win with Gaia Head, or "play normally" and probably get screwed by their offense. Both of the former options are extremely predictable since they are Tokinko's only offensive options, so against anyone who's played more than a few games against Tokinko she has no choice but to go on a rather miserable defense.
- The only time I'm able to play the game "normally" is against simpler chess-like characters such as Jupiter or King, but even King has twice as many rooks and bishops and Jupiter has tanky rooks able to slam right into your "fortified" defense without any form of counter. That's if I don't get 3-turned by a Gaia Head or a Poison Ghost or something.
- I need to play more games to see how I feel about Tokinko's summoning spells. They seem like they have the potential to be really powerful, but frankly the units are so lackluster that they can only really go up against units with blind spots right in front of them or other pawn-like units. They might be an option to fortify existing defenses but by the time you gather enough blood to use them, the enemy has probably already nabbed a bunch of your units in your blind spot. Not to mention, it seems that all spell summons either just don't upgrade at all, or they do so with a multiple turn delay. I've had a few Jupiter Waves just never transform into a Jupiter Star and get stuck at the top for the rest of the game, and the same happens with the Butterflies/Silver Stars I'm able to summon with Tokinko.

but uh yeah. sorry for the balance rant. i really love the game so far and it's so quirky and nice. definitely needs a "go back" button in places though.

This can be a general feedback thread I don't mind!

I fully agree that United Earth's units are super good, most of their pieces are so powerful they work in almost all situations. Battleships are extremely versatile, given enough time any of the weaker ships can become one as well, and the the Artillery have some of the best area denial on the board.

As for Tokinko, I don't play them much, but my friend chooses them a lot when we play together. I've definitely noticed a lack of "offensive speed" with Tokinko. I'm the type to choose weirder characters like Metonym and Soft Swarm, and I find I'm always "leading" the battle, making the offensive moves and forcing her to react, almost never the other way around. I wouldn't know how to change this, as Shogi is inherently a slower and more tactical game with much of a pieces movement blocked due to "the drop rule." Relic choice can go a ways to mitigate this, but I haven't messed around with the relics fully enough to really grasp their usefulness to the best potential.

(+1)

maybe tokinko's spells should be more akin to the actual drop rule? this would also help make needles much more useful since currently they are "use once" units.

i.e.

resummon last: consume blood to resummon the last friendly unit that died. if the spell is used multiple times, it just goes further back in the queue of "killed friendlies". units revert back to their pre-upgrade status when resummoned, and you cannot summon on the far 3 rows (or the shogi upgrade tiles, or the enemy home tiles. all the same thing) to prevent easy checkmates or instant promotion. might also make relic choice more interesting as you could also resummon killed relic units.

not sure what the second spell would be, but I wouldn't mind tweaking the silver star summon so that it can only summon near tokinko (and maybe at a cheaper blood cost too). this would add a bit more power/fortification to tokinko's own position since she has no escape mobility.

i know regn generally does not want to tweak tokinko/ancient king because of staying true to the original games, but would making tokinko more akin to shogi be worth pursuing?

That would be interesting, though I can already tell balancing a character like Tokinko will be very difficult. I guess to go with drop rule, the second spell would be something like "resummon last killed enemy." No idea how that would go and how expensive it would be.

Developer (1 edit)

Puzzles: I actually renamed the puzzles to "levels" because I realized doing tight puzzles for everyone was too hard... So sometimes it's more of a "situation", potentially really easy to solve. But I'll take a look at the ones you mentioned, if a puzzle is intended but easily sidestepped that's boring of course.

Tokinko: Yes, the problem is of course that she has to be "Shogi". But we can do whatever we want with the spells, to try and fix her. Right now they're just kinda weak attempts to imitate a drop rule. The suggestion to revive dead units is a good one. But in Shogi, you actually drop the pieces you capture from your opponent so what puroseki says, it could be a spell that revives the last captured unit as yours. And then the second spell... Some suggestions:
1) "shield" - give a unit +1 hp
2) "dash attack" - make any unit move 4 steps forward, attacking if it lands on an enemy
3) "promote" - activate a units "upgrade" without fulfilling the actual upgrade requirements

I think the third one, promote, could be pretty fun. Especially in combination with being able to revive opponent pieces, that you could then upgrade.

The desyncs from Summon Anything might be related to what puroseki said about the blood values not updating correctly for the opponent. Since the spell relies on both players values to decide the result.

The puzzles being called "Levels" for that reason makes sense, and I do like the distinction. The easier ones feel to me like a crash course tutorial in how a certain piece works, and I'm all for that.

Also, I really like the Promote idea for Tokinko! If it didn't cost too much blood, then her strategy would be to get some blood early, then set up strategically and think ahead. Any of her pieces could become something more dangerous at a moment's notice, so an opponent would need to be thinking of how to defend against it currently and in the near future. I'd be interested in seeing how that works out in-game.

(+1)

tokinko suffers from more than just weak spells but also the fact that her starting setup is just full of undefended holes: i.e. Spectre's centered queen can kill any butterfly on the left/right edge on round 1, and due to the lack of fortification on that side (lances can't defend well) they could probably go much further than that. I have a bunch of various cases where either the bishop/rook is vulnerable to an uncounterable 2 turn kill (which pretty much halves her offense for the rest of the game), or the enemy has a completely safe kill on the sides due to the lack  of defenses there, but I'll list them some other time when I do more testing.  since we're not supposed to change her main layout of pieces, i hope the spells are usable frequently enough that they can be a main part of her play.

1) "shield" - give a unit +1 hp

This sounds like something I'd just spam on Dragon Horse/King so they can go super aggro inside the enemy home space. As much as I think it's tokinko's only offense, i don't think placing more power on the rook/bishop is a good idea since currently beating tokinko really just boils down to taking down a bishop and a rook.

2) "dash attack" - make any unit move 4 steps forward, attacking if it lands on an enemy

i could see this somewhat useful for mid-late game where tokinko is mostly outranged on her regular units. it also depends on if it's a 4 tile move or a 4 tile teleport- the teleport could be nice for getting gold stars, but the regular move is much better for just general usability since there isn't a 2/3 tile blind spot which already exists on most of her towers anyways.

3) "promote" - activate a units "upgrade" without fulfilling the actual upgrade requirements

i really like this, the combination of this + unit capture would add a serious level of unpredictability to tokinko (which is good, i don't think there is a more predictable character atm). i'm just worried that due to the potential strength of this ability as well as the unit capture, it'll be gated by a serious blood cost (which makes the game around preventing tokinko from collecting blood, which is actually pretty easy because all her units are so immobile).

thanks for considering these balancing changes ^-^! 

I was thinking about that with Promote, that for it to help Tokinko out it would need to be usable somewhat often and how she struggles to collect blood with her low mobility. Something I was thinking about earlier would be to make one of the relics more useful in giving you some small amount of early game starting blood. Gogo Stones are good for multiplying and getting killed to make a bunch of blood, but of course your opponent has to actually kill them for that. I had considered, what if you could kill a gogo stone yourself, perhaps if its surrounded on all cardinal directions like a normal go stone, it would die on its own and drop a reduced amount of blood? This could let the relic potentially be used quickly at the start of the game to get maybe 5 blood or so, which could be useful on a handful of characters who have a cheap ability they want to have in their pocket. Of course, if this happened, it would probably make something like gogo stone near mandatory on Tokinko and maybe a few others, so maybe a simpler solution like letting Tokinko start the game with a small amount of blood would be better and less game changing.

Developer(+1)

Instead of having her start with blood, you can just make the first use free. Initial cost and how much it increases in cost with each use are separate variables.

Developer (1 edit)

Some stuff was fixed!

I'm assuming the Summon Anything bug was related to the "opponents spell costs are wrong" bug that was fixed, which could cause a desync in what the game though each players blood amount was (as players would use spells, but the cost would differ).
But if it keeps happening, do report it.

Wow an update! Haven't played a match with my friend yet as shes still asleep, but quick notes:

  • Tokinko Puzzle 2 works perfectly now and can be solved with smart promotion or smart use of powers, which makes it a great "tutorial puzzle" for a character.
  • Mazarin Puzzle 4 can still be cleared in two moves, the range of the Demon Fire lets it just walk forward and shoot the enemy king immediately.
  • Anna Ban Puzzle 3 was unclearable before due to the spell bug, but now its clearable! Yay
  • Metonym Puzzle 4 can now be cleared using the 50 blood ability, but it still takes smart play to be able to get that much blood, so it fits as a secondary solution.
  • Haven't played a match with a human yet just CPU, but the Tokinko changes feel good, and having only two artillery feels right for UE, looking forward to playing it more to feel it out.

I know it's not "puzzle" anymore but "level"  but Mazarin's 4th is litteraly just: advance 2>win