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About the Hinterlands, missing kids, and Zezé (0.5 spoilers)

A topic by caketo created Sep 04, 2021 Views: 1,215 Replies: 20
Viewing posts 1 to 6
(+7)

This was originally gonna go into the Hinterlands guide thread, but my theories got way out of hand and I wasn't really sure that would belong in an informational guide thread. So! I made this.

I've done some investigating in the Hinterlands over the past week or so, and I found a lot of secrets (the anthill was an absolute disaster and I loved every second of it). For this specific thread, though, I'll focus on just the ones relevant to the missing kids, the shed, and Zezé. This might seem like an odd choice, but I promise there's a reason I'm sticking to these specific topics.

Before I get into the actual theory, we need to go over the relevant secrets/info. This is by no means a comprehensive list-- if you've found anything that supports/contradicts the stuff in this post, please let me know! With that out of the way, let's get started:

  • Resolving the tapir god quest before the night you go to Zezé's bar causes his form to shift back and forth between a human and a goat-thing with dark brown fur and red eyes (and a cute little tail but that part isn't relevant).
  • On a similar note, resolving the tapir god quest then going to the pond lets you take a path to a shed. This scene is... a lot. I won't go into too many details (you should really read it yourself, it's very well written), but the specifically important things to note are that a bunch of kid's flip flops are found on the way to/inside the shed, the shed is far too clean but still smells like rust, and there are two parallel grooves in the top of the door frame and on the walls. Also, something like a ghost kid (maybe?) hops onto P's back and follows him out.
  • If you head to the library and pick fiction, there are only a few books left: one about the myth of the minotaur, and several from local authors about "Satan-worshipping goat boogeymen and their exploits kidnapping and devouring children." Not very fun!
  • Going to the shed changes how P's dad acts in Hinterlands 4. Normally, his dad looks at the cheese, then says P's "going crazy" and throws stuff at the wall. The shed scene causes P's dad to act like "he'd seen a ghost", before saying P is crazy, not going crazy. Still throws all of the shit at the wall, though.
  • Going to Storm's house unlocks the ability to go to P's family home. If you go there, P finds a notebook containing portraits of everyone in his family, followed by a few pages of children's drawings, including art of "Dark goats with red eyes, mouths split open and spewing fire."
  • This was a tricky one: going to the library, reading fiction, then going to the church alters P's dialogue about finding Pedoca (the missing kid). If you do this, P says that he'll find Pedoca and warn him to get to the church or "the cabra cabriola will get him."

With all that out of the way, I want to discuss the first half of my theory: Zezé is (or is, at least, an intentional reference to) the cabra cabriola. I wasn't aware of this before stumbling on the special church dialogue, but apparently, the cabra cabriola is a monster in Brazilian folklore. It's a goat monster that, in some depictions, has some/all of the following traits:

  • Darkly colored fur
  • Bright/red eyes
  • The ability to breathe smoke/fire

These are all pretty clearly reflected in things like Zezé's design and the goat drawings P finds in the notebook. I don't think it's a coincidence that finding the books about "Satan-worshipping goat boogeyman" causes P to bring up the cabra cabriola, and that it seems like a direct match to Zezé's true form.

So, that explains what Zezé is a reference to, but what about the shed and the missing kids? That leads to the second half of my theory: Zezé is, at least in some small part, related to whatever's going on in the shed. The stories of the cabra cabriola (based on my admittedly meager amounts of research) depict it as a child-stealing monster that steals young children and eats them. This is pretty directly referenced in the fiction books you can find in the library, and Zezé's a pretty close match to the monster. Additionally, remember those weird grooves in the top of the shed's doorframe? I think those may have been caused from something's horns scraping them, since Storm's horns do the same exact thing in P's car to the roof. Zezé has horns, and seems to be a reference to the cabra cabriola, which steals kids-- this isn't definitive proof he's the one who made the marks, but I don't think the reference is unintentional. The shed seems to be related to the missing kids, and P's dad reacted like he "saw a ghost" after the ghost kid thing followed P out of the shed. Plus, the shed was exceptionally clean but still smelled like rust, which is... suspect.

That's pretty much it. Zezé might be a reference to the cabra cabriola, a child-stealing monster, and he might also be responsible for whatever the hell's going on in the shed. Again, let me know if I missed anything!

Basically, I cannot believe they gave a possible child-stealing monster an extremely cute little tail. Absolutely unforgivable. /s

(+4)

Just a little detail, but there's three areas for the Hinterlands listed in Hinterlands II: Skinned Tapir, Drowned Tapir, and Bloody Goat. 

(+1)

Oooh, nice catch! Between that and the fiction books you can find in the library, it seems that goats may have a cultural presence in the region similar to tapirs (though maybe not to the same extent). If Skinned Tapir and Drowned Tapir have reasons for their names (the nonfiction choice in the library makes this especially clear), it's possible that Bloody Goat is based on something similar.

(+2)

Definitely. I think everything in the Hinterlands has meaning. (I want to say the bus stop is more of a cruel joke than the anthill.)

(2 edits) (+5)

Absolutely. This novel does an incredible job in general at making everything feel meaningful, but I feel that the Hinterlands chapters (especially III) do an especially great job at it. I'm pretty sure you and a few others already discussed that at length in another thread (particularly in regards to cultural influences and Catholicism), and while I can't really contribute to that discussion on my own, it was great to read along!

(+1)

Your posts are so helpful, though! There's a level of thoroughness and organization that I can't do. That's why you'll see me responding to threads instead of starting them, as I'm someone who needs something to bounce off from, often only realizing something as I'm writing it lol. We'll be our own Hydra and take down Minoh and crew. >:)

(Even if that's what they want. Damn those survey-oriented perfectionists and their desire to please.)

When it comes down to it, we're all engaging with the art we enjoy in whatever ways we can, and this kind of format lets us be uniquely collaborative with it. I think that's pretty neat! Everything y'all have contributed in the discussion has been (and I know this sounds cheesy) genuinely enriching my experience of the VN, so I'm glad my posts have been helpful in return.

Definitely! And from my experience cheese and sincerity tend to go hand in hand. :P

Developer(+4)

I just want to tell you how reassuring this kind of comment this has been to me. Halfway through the Hinterlands 3 section I got quite a bit of self-doubt, I wasn't sure I'd be able to convey things well enough and that it'd become a low point in the entire game.

A third of the time I thought the chemistry between P and Storm wouldn't work. The other two thirds were thinking that the investigation sections weren't strong enough to stand up (but if I made them more robust it would make section even longer) and thinking that mechanically the Hinterlands were too simplistic.

Seeing just how many people liked and understood what the Hinterlands is about was such a relief for me.

(+3)

I think it was an absolute success and enjoyed it from beginning to end. What really stands out to me is how rich it is in its abstraction. There are multiple branching paths of interpretation it can allow for and none of them feel any less than satisfying. 

This goes for virtually every part of the VN, but for the Hinterlands chapters in particular: It's clear just how much love, care and effort was put into it.

Especially the anthill.

I mean, wow. Dang. That anthill.

Developer(+1)

The Anthill was a particularly blessed segment. It came to me in a flash and I wrote it in one go, in a feverish state.

(+1)

Hinterlands 3 is fantastic. As an isolated chapter, it might the best in the whole novel so far. P was a really fun protagonist, and untangling the mysteries of this section was very estimulating. The relationship building with Storm was delightful and complicated, due to power dynamics, in a fascinating way. Other scenes, such as the underground, can be more powerful, but Hinterlands 3 could stand alone and still be a satisfying and complete story.

I'm really happy to hear that you're feeling some relief now that the build's out, because you definitely deserve it. You guys made something powerfully unique in build 0.5-- something that really resonated with people-- and the amount of discussion I've seen about it is a testament to that, I think. I hope you get to enjoy your break in (relative) peace.

(2 edits) (+5)

I think you nailed it, really! I hadn't thought of making those connections, but it fits damn well. And what I like is that Zezé's faded form is just faint enough that you can't quite pick up his caprine features unless you're really looking hard.

There's something I'd add too in hindsight: One of the first chilling things Pedro experiences at the shed is himself, "P", involuntarily saying the words "It was you" in someone else's voice, then sensing his grandfather. Here's my additional theory:

  • That voice saying those words was an echo of Pedro's grandfather
  • It was in fact, Pedro's grandfather discovering Zezé's secret (likely after the massacre of the 12 tapirs) and catching him in the act
  • Zezé is the one who killed Pedro's grandfather to silence him
  • Zezé, knowing the powers of mythical peacocks, warns Pedro to leave not because "the hotel ain't real" but so he won't find him out
(+2)

Oh god, that makes a lot of sense. I was wondering what the deal was with Pedro speaking in another person's voice, and why he immediately brings up his grandfather-- it might have been a P speaking, just not him. That also fits in well with the fact that Pedro specifically states that, if Zezé were some sort of mythical being, his father and grandfather never brought it up, which seems to indicate that they weren't aware of Zezé's true nature in advance.

(1 edit) (+5)

Something that just occurred to me: if you're right about Zeze killing Grampa P? That MIGHT fit Grampa P's recursion: Because the person playing the Argos role is supposed to get killed by someone playing the Hermes role, right?

If you go back into some paleomyhtology, it's thought that both Hermes and Pan have their origin in a Proto-Indo-European god Pehusan, who is theorized to have been a god of pastures, roads, journeys, boundaries, the wilderness, and herding. At some point between the Linear A and B periods and the beginning of classical greek antiquity, the version of this god they had in Greece got split, with some of the myths and godly responsibilities:--Roads, Journeys, Boundaries, being a Psychopomp--going to Hermes, and some--Herds, Pastures, being a Goatman, the Wilderness (and what's another word for wilderness? Hinterlands) going to Pan.

The other thing about Pan is that "Pan" is the Greek word for "everything" or just "every-" if it's used as a prefix.

So if we've got a guy who is a goat mythical, who lives in the Wilderness where there's not much but people in pastures raising herd animals, and his name is the same name as EVERYone else? That seems like a REALLY good candidate if Recursion needs someone to do a Hermes job real quick.

(1 edit) (+2)

Given how layered some of the references in this VN can be, I really wouldn't be surprised if that's the case. Cue5c pointed out a little further down that Zezé is actually derived from Joseph, and... well, to quote their quote:

"This name derives from the Hebrew name “Yehôsêph”, meaning “Yehowah has added, he will enlarge, God will increase, may he add”, which in turn derives from “yâsaph”, meaning “to add, increase, do again, increase, do again”. "

That would fit really well with what you posited here.

(+2)

bitches love logic & reasoning (it's me, i'm bitches), i really like this theory! now i gotta check out the things i skipped in the hinterlands

(+3)

I don't know sports, like at all, but:

 P picks up the waiters phone looking for someone to contact so he doesn't die and thinks:

"I found a number that was circled a few times. Better that than one of the eight Zezés and Marias."

He then notices the nametag so he can offer their name and it's "Zezinho". Apparently they're a famous Brazilian football/soccer player whose name is first name is José. I think Zezé could be a shortening of that, and if that's the case it's probably referring to Joseph, Mary's husband. Basically one of the most Catholic names you can have.

And apparently I'm overthinking this as Zezé is straight up Hebrew for Joseph:

"This name derives from the Hebrew name “Yehôsêph”, meaning “Yehowah has added, he will enlarge, God will increase, may he add”, which in turn derives from “yâsaph”, meaning “to add, increase, do again, increase, do again”. "

Apparently, recursion has a name.

God, given the absolutely batshit amount of layers the mythos in this game has, I would not be surprised if that's intentional. Wild shit.

Holy Hell... I was leaning towards the Colonel being the culprit at first but this actually explains a lot...