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Soulash

Soulash is a fantasy roguelike where you play as a forgotten god set on destroying the world. · By Artur Smiarowski

Pursuit trains

A topic by DeadStack created Jul 05, 2019 Views: 471 Replies: 13
Viewing posts 1 to 8
(2 edits)

So I'm on to my 4th game now, game 3 was the best run. In game 3 I died running away. Not because I did anything out of the ordinary, but because it's impossible to shake pursuers. Same thing in game 4 now. I'm being pursued by a train of hate. All im doing is running, running running around, in straight lines, in curves, trying to hide behind trees. When i rest to recoup stamina because it's constantly running out, I take a hit. I can't engage because the bow does minimal damage and I have 5 arrows. All I can do is keep running and running and running .. In game 3 I was running for maybe 500-1000 turns before I finally circumbed. How many turns will I have to run and run and run this time before dying?

They never give up. But I'll keep running and count the turns I have to run for to shake them or until I die .. 379 turns more running .. lost 3 pursuers when i crossed a bridge, but one guy never game up. Crossed back over the river, he kept following me, eventually we ran into a spell caster and then an archer who quickly finished me off.

Please tone down their drive to pursue, I can't actually believe some farmer or trader would be so determined to hunt down a dark elf defending themselves. 

And I thought I saw NPC's fighting each other once. Do they do that? Because it's odd when I've got both villagers and fishmen chasing me together. Are they living in harmony? With a pact to attack all foreigners?

Edit : Game 5 - Dark Elf / Necromancer - died running again. Running and running and running. I had a score of 612, does that mean I was running for about 600 turns, since i had about a dozen turns of peace at the start. My dagger expired in no time at all. Left me with rocks to throw. lol. Didn't even have time to gather enough rocks at the start to craft an axe. First it was a trader then there were just elves everywhere. I can't get a lead on them so when i rest i take a hit. They whittle me down eventually.

The problem with this pattern is that I have to wade through very uninteresting and frustrating games to get a game where I can survive and get into it a bit.

Game 6 - Dark Elf / Necromancer - I've chopped down a tree, havent managed to cut it into wood yet. But no worries - look, here's another hate train, 355 hp worth of enemies on my tail. I'm not even going to bother playing this one out. I can see the future.


It's difficult for me to understand your playstyle, but maybe if you can help me, I could make some adjustments to the game. 
Why do you keep running instead of fighting? Do you run away from enemies into locations you've not discovered yet, where more dangers can await? I admit I didn't want to have an empty world, so a lot is going on everywhere, but unless you run forward blindly the situations you describe shouldn't happen. With 379 moves you could probably move through a big chunk of the world. It's about six region maps away. Almost all early-game enemies are slower than you, so I can't imagine you could run that long and not escape. Your enemies have stamina and need to rest too.

On your screenshot there are soldiers. You can't meet them unless you move toward their keep.

Here's the map for that screenshotted game above (game 6). As you can see, it's not very big, and I didn't have to travel far to have a solder, 2 travellers and a fishman on me. Regarding my fleeing, it seems to be a legitimate strat to survive, particularly when all i want to do is chop down my first tree and chop some wood. And I only have a dagger. I will pay closer attention to the circumstances that lead to these frustrating situations. I'm trying not to be just a complainer, I want to be helpful, appologies if it comes across as just complaining, hopefully I can edge my feedback towards something of value to you.

Something i thought of as a statistical tool to measure games is the ratio of agro time to peaceful time, that might be a handy metric to talk about early game experiences, since heavy agro early on is a difficult/impossible situation. Just a thought for the game stats screen, might be useful for giving feedback.

South east is a very dangerous place to be so early, I might have to move it further from the starting location. Do you think if there was a skull mark on the world map instead of a question mark, would that help?

Yes, a skull for high level areas would be helpful.

Here's another gang up situation where the game just spirals out of control. 

t= 0s


t=23s


t=42s


And the play area .. not very large ..



They just keep spawning in or wandering into the start area. I can't get a break. It's just way too brutal. I killed 1 but it hardly matters, in 42 seconds of play the enemy count when from 6 to 7 to 9.

How did you get the initial 6? They don't walk around in packs, and you have people on you from 3 different regions. I've done multiple runs, and most I've seen at once was two unless I run around and grab more. There are also red indicators when you hear people that show you someone is there so that you can avoid.
I understand that there may be an issue, but your screenshots do not convince me.
On your first one, you have three farmers, one fishman, one merchant, one traveler
On your second one you lost a farmer and found 2 fishmen. You didn't rest, but a fishman did. Even though you are 20% quicker than fishmen, they have no issues catching up to you.
On the third screenshot, you lost Peyton the merchant somewhere but found Stuart the merchant by going back. You also lost Tetrafin the fishman. You found Manley the farmer, a rabbit, and Weston, the traveler.  So from your second to third screenshot you shook off 2 and found 3 (I think we can safely skip the rabbit).

You do know that red indicators out of your view range mean someone is there by now, I hope, there should be no issue avoiding these people.

The last thing I want is for you to not have fun, so if you think the game is too hard you can change the difficulty in about 5 minutes.
In your game folder edit the "data/organization.json" file. Your starting location is 30,27,0 (x,y,z). In that file you can add or remove as many enemies as you wish. Here is an example:

{
        "id": 22,
        "level": 1,
        "name": "Fishmen",
        "map": "29,27,0",
        "workers": [313, 313, 313, 313, 313, 313, 313, 313],
        "recipes": [],
        "leader": -1
    }

Map is location, so 29,27,0 is directly to the left of your starting region. "workers" is a list of spawned entities during world creation. If you remove a couple of "313" from the list, you will have less enemies. You might want to edit these:

"name": "Travelers",
"map": "31,27,0",

"name": "Mansfield",
"map": "31,28,0",

After you make changes, make sure to backup the files, it may get overwritten by some update. Hope you'll have fun the way you want to. :)

(1 edit)

From my experience with the game thus far, I think the casters are by far the hardest to play mostly because of the travelers and elven enemies that can wander through the starting zone. They're pretty much a death sentence at the first few levels mostly because they will relentlessly pursue you. On my warlock runs I've consistently had to escape to the upstairs in Mansfield and sleep/hide until what was on my tail wanders away far enough to poke my head down. It works, but it feels scummy and isn't satisfying :P Fallen Knight, Nomad and Inquisitor had no such troubles for me except for running into casters, and the casters seem to have much less in the way of stamina to give chase to you with.

Do enemies actually have levels or are their stats predetermined/abstracted? I ask because being able to look at an enemy with shift to evaluate an enemy's relative power level to your own might do a lot for easing new players into the experience and make the button more useful beyond seeing if they have goodies and character fluff. I can see how it'd be really hard to tell if something's gonna end up stomping you and how exactly said stomping occurs. Something like Caves of Qud, here


Where the Impossible describes the creature's strength relative to yours, neutral describing the creature's disposition towards you.

All that said, I like the idea of alternate starting zones which breathed much more replayability for me into games like Qud and C:DDA. Maybe some generalized start locations for all types of characters, and a few that are race/class specific? I feel like after enough playthroughs and without any natural evolution of your starting area, that zone is going to get stale fairly quickly.  Maybe some reason to go back to "where it all began?" :)

(+1)

Enemies have levels and stats, the comparison could work, but I guess it won't be too reliable. Traveler is hard mostly because of his stamina and speed, but his combat stats are rather low. As you've noticed that's a strong combination against casters, but not so much against warriors. I agree it could help beginners, so I'll add it to the list and try to figure it out.
More starting zones, definitely. The world will expand and I'll add more locations, maybe starting scenarios so they won't be random but can be picked for different levels of difficulty and early reward.

Honestly it's not super reliable in Qud either, I'm pretty sure it's solely based on level so by the late game you know enough exploitable weaknesses in enemy types that it's hardly as relevant as the titles and description of the creature itself. Mostly functions as a new player telegraph of "OH DONT TOUCH THAT" :P Maybe here, the character can see into the soul of enemies and knows how much exp it will reward upon death, and players can infer off of that? Definitely think there's room for innovation here but there's probably several directions possible to take. 

Aside, I read your twitter playthrough and enjoyed it, but I refuse to actually use twitter so I just lurk there on rare occasions :P It's interesting to see a dev take a full dive into their own creation but I personally think you should stick to doing that when you want to and have the itch to play. My perspective is that the work that brings you joy/fulfillment is going to be what's of the highest quality. But I'm in the visual arts so I have the luxury of saying crap like that which you might not XD

(+1)

Hehe, I agree. I needed to have a less productive day today and give my game spin, the last two weeks after release took a toll on me. I did ask if there was interest in these kinds of stories because as much as I would like to play from time to time, I didn't know if it was interesting enough to share. 
It was fun to let someone else pick the race and profession. I would probably never give the troll cultist a try otherwise. ;)
And I agree about the fulfillment, I'm a programmer at heart, and I love what I do, but twitter is more about spreading the word about my work. Without it, we probably wouldn't be here. I would probably be the happiest just sitting in a basement coding, but I don't know if it would result in the best quality of the game. :)

(+2)

I think I can finally see the issues some of you may have in the early game after watching this video.
I'll implement a pursuit range, and probably nerf traveler speed by 10% so he can't keep up for that long.
I'm considering making the first map a "no-wander" zone. Enemies will still pursue when aggroed, but won't come in on their own. This should give enough time to make preparations before picking a fight.
I'll add some form of strength comparison in the enemy tooltips, so it's easier to judge the encounter for new players before engaging.

(2 edits) (+1)

Traveler speed was reduced, no-wander zone created in the starting region and strength comparison added in tooltip.
I was on the fence with adding pursuit stop to AIs, but I skipped it for now because it would make it easy for ranged characters to abuse the mechanic. Let me know if it's too hard to escape by using the terrain, so I'll know if something has to be done further.

I'm currently on my best run with a Dark Elf Inquisitor (L4). My only other good run was with a Dark Elf Nomad (L2 / 3824 pts). My other 6 games were 755 pts and less.

I'm being much more cautious this game and have avoided being ganged up on. I listened to your advice and kind of read between the lines of what you said to realize that I have to deal with enemies when i see them without moving far or else i have to flee before they detect me. I can't run around too much to flee once detected - that will lead to death. But fleeing is a grand tradition of adventurers everywhere. I think it's a problem if fleeing is a death sentence. I note that the changes you've made might help in the early game in this regard.

I think there may be some balance issues with some of the classes, but not sure. I'll be interested to revisit what i percieve as the weaker classes with my stricter play style. The inquisitors 1st level immolate is powerful and necessary, and icebolt isn't too bad on their approach. I'm not that impressed with fireball but it does have a huge AOE (maybe even a little too big) so we'll see. 

I guess I can reflect and say, well now I'm playing more cautiously, with more of a view that this is a short range roguelike, particular at that boundary of NPC detection, and not an adventure game or RPG (even though it looks and feels like it a lot). I do wish there more places to hide though, more cover and opportunities to lose pursuers.