Post by Rivne in Password comments

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I hope I didn't seem too bitchy there. Everything I wrote (except the drama portion) were my initial gut reactions that I jotted in my notepad. I never intended to share them uncensored, but it seemed to me like you would appreciate them so I did. I just want you to know that nothing I say comes from a place of malice towards you, even if it does seem harsh. It makes me happy that I can somehow give you helpful feedback on your game.

I'm curious, do I seem like a nightmare type of reader? One who seemingly doesn't see a lot of things you intended your readers to see?
And, do you find that most people receive path D well and that I happen to be an outlier?
What do you expect players to feel when they play D (at least the current public build)?

[Path D]

I didn't make the connection that Dave shutting down and Tyson become rabid were in response to trauma. Their behavior in path D become a lot more clear now. I think if I made that connection (and also better understood the true extent of Dave and Tyson's brotherly relationship), I would have viewed Path D a lot differently. I think with that lack of knowledge I just substituted myself into the story and kept thinking, "wow I would never behave in such a completely irrational way". And just irrational decision after irrational decision just built up the rage inside me until I decided there was no other correct path other than a genocide run.

To test this hypothesis: I am going to reread all of Dean Path D and give you my thoughts as I go through it. I first played it maybe 2 or 3 weeks ago.

Day 11 - Murder
Re-reading the Sal murder scene is certainly more gruesome than I remember. Maybe if the scene were a lot slower and gorier and more descriptive I would have been more affected by it? Who knows.

Day 11 - Just left the kitchen and are now in the forest
- From what I remember when I first finished path D, I was very frustrated with how all the characters were babying Dave. Even Orlando, who is a big baby himself. I think my frustration with Tyson started with how many times he treated Dave like a helpless child. I think I probably yelled at my monitor a few times, "Tyson, shut the fuck up!".
- But right now while re-reading, with the current knowledge I have about your intentions, the path is a lot more bearable. Tyson's actions seem reasonable and he doesn't strike me as going too far, except shouting at Dave to shut the fuck up and then ignoring him because Dave dared to speak.

Day 11 - Just finished the scene where you visit Roswell and Dean's bodies
This scene is way better written than I remembered. It was actually a very sweet moment, save for the very end. I just wish you would push it further; just let it linger a little longer. It feels like the moment going from Roswell to Dean is a little abrupt. Maybe something like (Ignore if you don't like people back seating your writing):
"I stared at Roswell's unmoving chest for another minute, recalling the first time he wore his red scarf (some cute memory idk). Eventually, I drearily moved my eyes to Dean, sitting peacefully against the wall just 10 feet away. My physical exhaustion matched my mental exhaustion as I labored myself off the floor and walked over to him, sitting next to Dean just as I had with Roswell. Orlando hesitated for a moment, but eventually joined me."

Maybe for the Dean moment, Dave could rub Dean's fur and describe what it feels like, as well as further describing what Dean looks like at this moment. I think this way you can make the scene more impactful for the reader, while also keeping Dave emotionally numb.

I also feel the transition into feeling hatred for Sal was a little abrupt. Maybe have Dave stare at the axe wound, where he zones out and gets a vivid recollection of the murder, to which he then responds with fury and a desire for revenge.

But also: Concerning Sal, is it not out of character for Dave to feel a sudden tunnel vision urge for bloodthirsty revenge? It seems like more of a Tyson response to trauma than a Dave response. I don't recall any other point in the story where Dave has had a similar reaction. On my current replay of Path D this is the first thing that is really striking me as very odd behavior.

But also (part 2): I didn't understand why Dave said this line but didn't really mean it: "I just... I want the closure, I think. I want a chance to say goodbye." (said to Orlando outside of the mansion) Did Dave really not want to closure for his dead

Day 11 - I'm at the option to kill or forgive Sal.
During my first playthrough I had already decided to do a genocide run by this point, so I didn't really care about anything Sal said.
Now I clearly feel a lot more sympathy for Sal and will forgive him <3

Day 11 - just finished day 11
- I distinctly remember on my first playthrough that Tyson ignoring me in the kitchen pissed me off so badly because it was the cherry on top of the awful way he was acting before (and Dave just standing there whimpering did not help.) Later when Tyson makes it really clear that he's only doing it because he wants to protect Dave, it just didn't resonate with me. The reasoning was not enough to just forgive so quickly. And I remember specifically when Tyson first hugs Dave, and then later hugs him around the middle while crying, I just imagined Dave standing there stoically, not reacting, not forgiving (at least this is how I wanted Dave to react). But clearly the text describes Dave as feeling very sympathetic for Tyson.
- But now with fresh calm eyes and new information, these scenes don't trigger me as much. Although I still just do not feel sympathy for Dave or Tyson.

Day 12 - Tyson and Dave have just left the mansion to escape
- At this point, to enjoy the story I must depersonalize myself from Dave (if this is even the correct word to use. ) I have to look at him from an omniscient view and just observe him, rather than try to live through him, if that makes any sense at all. I know Dave is an already defined character with a name, backstory, personality, internal struggle, etc. But It's already day 12 and Tyson is still an abusive scary control freak, and Dave is still pathetic and weak, and there is no choice I can make that will render him less insufferable (maybe there is and I'm just too dull to realize it. Or maybe I'm just not meant to change it and I need to suck it up. ) So I have to make the choice to depersonalize myself from Dave.
- Also: Like I mentioned after just finishing day 11, we already know without ambiguity that Tyson is behaving like a control freak because he wants to protect Dave. We got a tear-filled revelation from Tyson. But after Dave takes Sal inside the mansion and everyone being in the kitchen together, Tyson is being even more of a control freak than ever. If the tear-filled revelation scene was supposed to make me feel sympathetic for Tyson, this scene has certainly stripped away any sympathy I might have had.
- When we go up to the bedroom and Tyson asks "Tell me when I did wrong by you," the first thought I had both the first time I played and now while replaying was: "Literally all of the last 2 days."

Day 12 - End of demo
My thoughts while reading "I love you, Ty": Poor Dave is stuck in Stockholm syndrome.

- Reflection -
I believe I fully understand why Tyson and Dave act the way do for days 10 to 12, but understanding just isn't enough to make me sympathize with these characters. Maybe I'm just an outlier and 95% of readers sympathize greatly with them, I really couldn't say.

[For when I said, "and the power to save the characters is gone after day 10."]

I've played Dean Path D and then all Path As except for Hoss'. The only instance I can remember where you have the choice to save a character past day 10 is path D when you tell Sal not to kill himself. I don't remember any moment on path A where you have the choice to save someone's life. This is only for the current public build. I'm assuming at least on Path D it will eventually be possible to have everyone die (or rescue the post 10 survivors).
The reason I mentioned this at all was because, at least for path A, the playtime between day 10 and day 15 is very long. A long time with no life-saving. I'm not saying that it's a bad thing to have this gap, but it's just the life-saving fun aspect is absent for a while.

[Dad]

Apologies if I missed something, but every dream sequence with Dave's dad is them talking in the kitchen or in Dave's room. Maybe we could get memories of dad teaching Dave to play baseball, or dad taking Dave for a ride in his police cruiser, or dad taking Dave out to the mall to buy a new video game, or even better, Dave made some poor choice and gets in trouble and dad had to give some real tough love advice that made Dave develop into who he is today.
Maybe I'm wrong, but for people who had good relationships with their fathers, memories like these stick out profoundly. And I think for people who never had good relationships with their father, or had no father, they would crave to have memories like these. It's very sad to think about.

[Mental health approach]

I can totally understand your approach to the mental health aspects of the story. I personally did not enter this game expecting a very nuanced and sensitive approach to that, nor did I expect it for most of the game until it became evident that Dave was depressed. When you wrote Dave's symptoms of depression and suicidal thoughts, did you expect the readers to become emotional or very sad while reading it? Or was that not your goal at all?

Grizz3 years ago(+1)

Not bitchy at all! I'd rather feedback be honest and constructive rather than people paying me compliments out of obligation, so we're all good. You don't read like a nightmare reader but you're absolutely an outlier in general consensus thus far, but that's why I find these kinds of insights fascinating as they're typically free from any kind of bias. Funnily enough, Path D is meant to feel uncomfortable as a whole because of what's going on. Picking up on Tyson's abusive behavior towards Dave is something that very few people actively enjoy, but as a whole people hit that sweet spot of "Oh no, things are bad" without having the same reaction you initially did.

Reading your revised reactions to Path D, it's given me some things to immediately work with although a lot of it should be tightened and tidied come the editing phase. Hopefully at least. It's clear things aren't resonating as strongly as they can be, and that falls on me to bring that across better. Maybe not to the extent of creating ego bleed (which is why making Dave his own explicit entity as opposed to a self-insert, semi-blank MC), but better? Absolutely.

It's interesting you note what kind of visions Dave has about his father as the intention was to handle Dave being haunted by how he remembers his dad as opposed to actively reflecting on various things they did together. That's at the moment planned for later now that the barrier of him accepting him as gone has been breached. For the most part, David is well received at least in the more vocal circles of the fandom for two reasons: He's a hotter, daddy version of Dave; and/or "I wish I had a dad like him". I haven't run an analysis on family dynamics for furries but what I have noticed is that the father/son bond as a whole is somewhat lacking. So latching onto a surrogate, idealized father figure is probably helping his popularity. As for Dave, who had a stellar relationship with his father, is meant to read as suffering in not knowing how to process the fact that he's now gone, mostly in part to not wanting to admit it's the truth. His friends are also garbage in actively helping him come to terms with this as well (as evidenced by their lack of progress since it happening and no steps taken at all on Path C/D), but that in and of itself was meant to be a life lesson that your friends aren't out of obligation your therapist. Support circle, sure. But not a replacement for professional help.

This kinda flows into the intention behind Dave's depression. There's more there to be covered later in-game, but Dave being depressed wasn't really meant to evoke sadness or really any other emotion aside from worry, concern or maybe dread. It's there, it's yet another obstacle to overcome (much like using the vault although now it's Dave at risk). If someone was to feel sad about Dave being suicidal probably lacks world experience with the topic which they should be thankful for missing if it makes the nuances a little hard to get. The bigger worry should be triggered when he doesn't bring it up with his friends.

Rivne3 years ago (1 edit)

If you ever want me to stfu and stop flooding your comments just let me know lol.

How did you expect readers to identify with dad? What about dad did you think would really make readers fall in love with him?

Like I mentioned before, on my first playthrough I found dad just to be too perfect and overly happy/cheery, which just causes me to estrange from him.

Like before, I will play through all of Dave's dreams again equipped with knowledge of what your intentions were while writing them. I'm wondering what readers should be feeling or what information they should be gaining with each dream.
You said:
- Dave is haunted by his subconscious version of dad
- Dreams are not intended to be happy memories
- Dad is popular being he's hot and potentially treated as a surrogate father

I'm also going to go into these dreams by thinking about how to make a good father figure:
- A role model
- Recognize when their children are struggling with something
- Talking about serious topics, but with care
- Spending time together and bonding

Day 10 -
GOAL: Introduce Dad and show how Dave remembered his dad's personality.

- I think this is scene is quite effective for the most part.
- Why does Dave ask for his dad's name? Does he think it's an imposter? If so it's swept under the rug quite quickly.
- The part that perturbs me the most are the lines between "...and that they're going to die because of me." and "...but maybe make it less heavy if you can."
Is this how Dave thinks his dad would respond if Dave was terrified he was going to cause someone to die? The advice seems a little cliched.
If I were to change this, I would make dad respond back with questions: "What do you think you should do?", "Why do you think they are going to die?", "What have you done to protect them?", "Have you done all you could?", "Is this truly what you are so afraid of?", etc. Personally, when I need advice I love questions like these. It really makes me think about what I truly want and need to do.
- I think also maybe what's subconsciously messing with me is that one sprite where dad is smiling with his eyes closed and fist in the air, like he is super pumped. Sometimes it's just too much compared to what's written in his dialogue. When I just ignore it and let my mind's eye play out the scene, it's less jarring.

Day 11-
GOAL: Witness how dad handles Dave amidst turbulent marriage? tbh I don't know, I find it very unclear.

Suggestion:
If my interpretation of the goal is correct, perhaps a more gripping way to do this is to plop Dave right at the dinner table with mom and dad, all is normal and Dave just observes the scene until it quickly devolves into them fighting (This whole time the argument is just garbled nonsense). Dave just sits there silently but is internally very stressed out. Dad notices this and sets a hand on Dave's shoulder, waking Dave from his trance. Mom has vanished from the room and dad is looking at Dave directly in the eyes. Dad apologizes and tries to cheer Dave up with jokes and hearty laughter.

Day 12 Dream 1 -
GOAL: Show how lonely Dave feels

Suggestion:
Maybe Dave could wake up to the sound of a door closing and a car driving off (hinting that someone has left the house). Dave could teleport to a nearby coffee shop and see all his friends sitting at a table, talking and laughing together. Dave tries to approach them but can't move. He tries to call out to them but they can't hear him. Dave returns back home, but while walking past Tyson's home he sees Tyson's empty spot on his front porch. He thinks briefly about Tyson. He continues walking home and sees mom's car in the driveway. He enters his home and calls out to his mom but receives no response.

Day 12 Dream 2 -
GOAL: Dave wants to figure out why he can't cry.

I don't have much to say about this. It's quick, simple, emotional, and I love the ending.

Day 13 -
GOAL: Dave wants to know if he's the reason for his parents' issues.

- Is this supposed to be a memory or just a scenario Dave conjured in his mind? It reads more like a memory. This is curious considering every other one of these sequences are dreams.
- Dave reads as much younger in this scene.
- In the previous dream sequences, Dave is clearly doubting so many things in his life. It would make sense for Dave to feel like he's the reason for his parent's marital issues, but dad immediately qualms those fears, which doesn't seem entirely consistent, if I'm making any sense at all. If Dave is at the peak of his depression, you'd think he'd get a negative dream, right? Something that reinforces his fears.

Day 14 Dream 1 -
GOAL: Dave's largest internal fear (inadequacy? being useless?) comes to fruition and becomes too much for him.

This scene was done quite well.
Just this one line "That's it, Dave... It'll all be over soon." isn't my favorite. Personally, I would just remove it and let Jack go straight to killing.

Day 14 Dream 2 -
GOAL: I'm not really sure, but the reader figures out why Dave can't cry

- Dave recalls his friends, where they lived on his street, and who came over to his house.
- He says he never liked spending time in the living room. (I don't understand this)
- Different colors all look the same
- Dad appears in Dave's doorway, Dave asks why he died, Dad doesn't respond.
- Dave wonders why he isn't crying

I'm struggling to find the link between all of this.

Day 14 Memories -
GOAL: Everything comes crashing down and Dave finally accepts what happened

- Unfortunately, most of the humorous parts aren't really landing with me.
- I still feel in this part dad is too unnaturally happy-go-lucky. I don't know at what age Dave's dad died, but this scene makes me think Dave is like 12 years old (I can't remember a point where it was mentioned). I think if I knew Dave's age I would find the dialogue a lot more realistic.
- The last moment with Dave and dad (paired with Tyson finding that strange ID card in path D) makes me think you're planning a phat plot twist soon. But otherwise, the last moment with dad is very very sweet. Even sadder knowing it's Dave's last moment with him.
- For when Dave hears the bad news, for the lines between "But no, Hoyt told me..." and "...in a daze. Dad was dead." I strongly believe you could really flesh this out. Make the reader feel everything Dave was feeling at that moment. The feeling of a child's entire world crashing down in an instant.
- And the part after in the kitchen makes me cry again. It's so well written and the art is fantastic too (I imagine the finished art will make the scene even more powerful). Great work lol.

Day 15 -
I love that you dream about the route character and what you'd like to truly say to them, instead of a sad dream about dad or being alone.
What if before the character comes into view, you had dad briefly appear and shoot Dave a smile before walking out the door?

I have two personal scenes in my mind that I can't shake:
- Dave and dad are hanging out before someone is in danger; dad heroically saves them while Dave bears witness. This wouldn't be a memory, but more to show that Dave thinks dad is super cool and a hero. But it doesn't really fit into any of the other dream sequences, other than maybe the first one. I have recently watched the Harry Potter movies and dumbledore is a fantastic father figure. Harry tries to emulate Dumbledore's kindness and is awestruck by Dumbledore's level of power. In my opinion, being a policeman is one of the most virtuous professions out there (despite the often negative reputation they get.) So Dave (and the reader) witnessing dad perform a heroic act would be very impactful.
- Dave and dad riding around in the police cruiser with the red and blue lights on. It's going well until Dave asks a serious question and looks over to the driver's seat where he finds his dad suddenly vanished, leaving Dave all alone. Police lights still flooding the scene for xtra dramatic effect. Could represent Dave feeling alone, Dave missing his dad, foreshadows the reason dad died, dad suddenly leaving Dave's life.

Grizz3 years ago

Don't worry, I'll let you know if we ever hit that point!

I'll try and tackle these as you've broken them up as I feel that might help keep myself organized.

Identifying with dad wasn't really an intention. He was there to contrast Dave's fairly muted persona amidst his sadness and give a Dave-biased look on how his father was/acted. He's more hyper in the dream sequences compared to the flashback on Day 15 (outside of the Day 11 dream) because Dave is hyperfocused on 'positive' things when he's thinking of his dad. Essentially, it's a symptom of repressed trauma if a gross oversimplification of what's going on. It's why the dream sequences aren't meant to be indicative of how good a father David was to Dave, because they're inherently tainted with narrator bias.

Day 10 - I feel I answered why this feels off above. This isn't his dad. This wouldn't be how he responded because this is Dave just using his dad as a crutch visually to process his stress. We're introduced to dad as needed Dave clues in that it's a dream by asking the name but takes more comfort in the lie and what he wants to hear than what would actually be sound advice. After all, this is all in his head.

Day 11 - It was meant to be the first hint towards a strained marriage, yes. Perhaps I was playing it a little too subtle with the subtext of them not arguing in front of Dave but Dave still being somewhat aware that something was amiss. Very few people have picked up on what that scene was about so I might need to make it a little more explicit so it makes sense for a later scene.

Day 12 (1) - The suggestion is sound outside the the friendship group functionally splitting apart after the month, so thinking about them together minus him wouldn't resonate correctly with how he's feeling. Something closer would be having them all over and then in a flash they're all gone. Even then it's a little off because he's equating: people he loves going away = friends going away = isolation. Because dad's already gone, his friends are mimicking that gap by also being missing here. Mom's already out of the picture but we'll get to her later.

Day 13 - Ah, not a dream this one. This one he is just consciously thinking back to a memory he had. Again probably a case of me trying to be too clever and subtle but the tonal change is because he's still awake versus in REM sleep. But it's the fault in the memory that leads him back to what happens immediately after with the river.

Day 14 (1) - That line is important but just... not right now. I'm a big fan of narrative echoes, and when you start messing with the topic of morphic resonance the 'when' and the 'how' of that line coming up makes it a little harder to judge if it the payoff is working.

Day 14 (2) - So the dislike of the living room is due to that being the room his world broke down. Might have been to heavy-handed with Dave's descriptions but I'll review it. The color thing is because a symptom of severe emotional trauma is partial colorblindness. Coupled with what colorblindness hyenas already have exhibited to have IRL I figured this was a good symptom to apply. The lack of knowing how his dad died is because of him actually just not knowing the circumstances.

15 - Why show dad here? I'm not opposed to the idea on principle but I don't know exactly what that'd be adding given Dave's focus is primarily on his route partner instead.

The two scenes: It's funny that you mention this, as I have a draft of something similar to this but it's not a dream. Something for later when Dave decides to embody the man his father was/wanted him to become once Dave's arc is closer to being done development-wise. We open the game up on Dave being depressed over his father's death, so looking fondly on him being a cool hero doesn't work if the hero is dead. Scene two would be something to lead into the story on Day 14 about hearing the news if only visually being able to capture the red/blue lighting on the scene. It might be a little heavy handed though, but I can draft something up and see how it reads.

Something I worry about constantly and won't stop worrying about until this game is done, is that my writing quality as far as set ups and pay-offs can't be accurately judged until said pay-offs happen. Narrative echoes that I've put in now don't seem as such because nothing's echoing back just yet. Another case of this would be the recurring lines of "Just give up, Dave. Let whatever happens, happen." Dave got these words from somewhere, but we don't know specifically where yet as the story isn't that far along.

Rivne3 years ago

I love bouncing thoughts off with you and hearing the "behind the scenes" of your intentions. This is really fun! xD

Just my thoughts: The player is playing through the eyes and mind of Dave, who clearly adores his dad. If you want the reader to empathize with Dave, I feel it would be important to try and get the reader to understand why Dave loves his dad so much, and to try and get the reader to love dad as much as possible also (Even through the depression dreams). This would definitely make the day 14 payoff so much more painful (in the best way)

Day 10 -
I think you may have misinterpreted me, I totally understand that this isn't how dad might've actually responded to Dave's problem. The reader has no clue how dad would have actually responded. The "perturbing" thing to me was: Is that really the advice Dave thinks his dad would give him in this situation? Because to me the advice just seemed shallow and cliched. This leads me to think Dave believes his dad would only give him such unhelpful advice as, "Oh you think your friends are going to die? Do your best! Everyone dies!". Perhaps I'm just viewing this all wrong!
If you're saying that Dave's subconscious is only giving Dave the advice he wants to hear. I just can't think of "do your best!" as fitting at this moment. (I think this may be our biggest disagreement!)
Also, when I was reading this scene I assumed that dad not knowing the time or date was enough to clue Dave that he was dreaming.

Day 13 -
Hm... Sometimes I do daydream random scenarios in my head, particularly when I'm really into something. I am also working on my own VN and sometimes when I'm doing homework I'll just space out and imagine an entire fight scene in my head. Although I suppose in daydreams your subconscious isn't messing with you as hard as it might in a dream. But I could definitely see readers being confused as to whether this was a memory or a daydream. Maybe I'm completely wrong and 90% of readers get this easily.

Day 14 (2) -
For the living room, that makes perfect sense. This makes me feel so dumb because I read that and thought, "Well that's random, why does Dave hate the living room?". And then in the very next flashback scene you hint at it, but I still don't get it. I think maybe if you used the doorway/entrance it might have struck me better? (cuz that's where Dave and the reader find out) But who knows; I probably still wouldn't have made the connection.
I definitely understood the colorblind part, that was one of the more obvious depression motifs.

Day 15 -
I was just thinking about in movies whenever a character is haunted by something but then comes to accept it and gets closure, the thing that was haunting them appears one last time in a small happy moment before disappearing. So like Dave has accepted his dad is dead, so in his last dream his dad walks out of the door (closure) and is replaced by his friend whom he cares about (new worldview). I know it can seem a little cheesy, but I am a total sap for that type of stuff. Especially considering all the build-up towards Dave getting closure.

When I kept reading the lines "Just give up, Dave. Let whatever happens, happen." I kept thinking that maybe Jack or dad said it previously and I just missed it. But if you're saying it's from the morphic resonance stuff that would be a pretty juicy revelation.

Grizz3 years ago

I think on the topic of Day 13, people haven't raised issue with it at all. I approached writing it differently and hoped that the change in how David spoke to his son was different enough and less of a caricature to hint that it wasn't just a dream. Plus I'd been fairly consistent on having the dreams flagged as such by stating explicitly Dave was going to sleep. Could be an outlier, might not be, few are actually vocal about this.

Day 14 I can maybe tweak it a little but it's minor enough that I'll just make a note of it and handle it later.

As for Day 15, ah. There's the problem you're possibly running into. Dave isn't magically fixed because he had a cry about his dad, this is more the wound is actually able to start to heal. Much like the comment I made earlier about Dave embodying his dad's actions near the end of his arc, expect something akin to what you suggest much further along the story, maybe near the end to close out Dave's story as a whole. Specifics I'm still drafting out for the greatest cinematic effect possible but the broad strokes are already set.

Rivne3 years ago

I also read the latest build:
I would love to be casually offered a million dollars.
The moment alone with Tyson was very sweet. I like the tension you are building between their relationship, I'm excited to see where that leads.
Nothing really struck out that made me feel the need to put my critic glasses on.

Well I suppose that's all I had to say! Thanks for the interesting conversation. If you ever want a brutally honest unbiased opinion about something let me know!

Grizz3 years ago(+1)

Always appreciated! If you ever feel like sharing again, I'll absolutely set the time aside to hear you out.

sirbobthemarvelous3 years ago

reading this thread was nice because you both went very detailed and in-depth on how things could be improved on

itch.io

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