Post by CleanWater in I think we should have a review system. - itch.io

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CleanWater3 years ago (3 edits) (+1)

Itch.io already have a review system, but it's visible only to developers (I believe it's to avoid abuse from competitor devs). Actually it's the developers who benefit (or not) the most from reviews in my honest opinion, not the customers.

I had a terrible experience on another store, which I told past month on "My Life as an Indie Dev" I'm publishing on my personal blog. A competitor dev published a negative review (which also affected my sales during the release) while promoting his own game on this same review (Spam). My game was in second place of the popular new releases, then it left the top popular releases thanks to these dishonest exploits.

I understand that reviews are useful for buyers to make their choice and also believe that it's not everyone who exploit this, but hey, why do we have game demos and refunds then? A customer can't decide for him/herself if said game is for him/her or not? Besides, it's not because someone's else disliked a game that everyone should dislike it as well. Mega Man Legends and Chrono Cross are my most beloved games, but have a considerable hater base.

Wild-Dog3 years ago (4 edits) (+1)

In the first place, platforms tend to discourage customers from abusing the refund system and "taste-testing" games with it. Most games don't have demos anymore either.

Instead of having the ability to connect with your customers, use their feedback and foster a strong relationship, you'd rather they just take their money back? Seems like throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

CleanWater3 years ago (3 edits)

Wild-Dog, this is what Itch.io review system already do for developers. This system is a customer-to-developer only communication feature which avoid third parties to interfere with any bias on it. It's the perfect way to create strong customer-to-developer relationships. Honestly saying, I didn't got your point here.

Also, it's a customer right to have their money back if they dislike a product.

If developers don't create demos for their games, or don't know how to use these tools well to build a good audience, they are at fault here and should rethink their marketing strategy.

Wild-Dog3 years ago (1 edit)

Your point is that you want to throw away public reviews/comments because you think it blindsided your game.

Mine is that they can create a sense of trust and community that's invaluable for those who know how. They're also more reliable than refund systems and demos.

CleanWater3 years ago

Your point is that you want to throw away public reviews/comments because you think it blindsided your game.

Wild-Dog, why do you believe my point to be this?

Mine is that they can create a sense of trust and community that's invaluable for those who know how. They're also more reliable than refund systems and demos.

And why do you believe reviews that are open to public (and usually developers can't directly reply to them) can create a sense of trust between the community and developers?

Wild-Dog3 years ago

"A competitor dev published a negative review (which also affected my sales during the release) while promoting his own game on this same review."

But if your games are actually good and you connect with players and make them feel heard, they'll sing your praises and outweigh the couple bad reviews. That's part of why public reviews can be so useful.

"(and usually developers can't directly reply to them)" So you agree they'd be better if they allowed a more open relationship between developer and player?

CleanWater3 years ago (3 edits)

Wild-Dog, I agree with you, but that's not what usually happens through open reviews from my own experience and observations.

Do you know how many downloads my games have? And how many of these persons never cared to rate my games? Saying they are bad are not an excuse, they could give a "poor rating" if it was the case. Most (actual) players don't use the rating system, or the review system either, from most stores.

Who really will benefit from this change?

Wild-Dog3 years ago

Sometimes games don't have that many reviews. That doesn't make them much less useful.

If I had interest in one of your games, I assure you I'd be far more likely to buy with 1 or 2 reviews even if one of them was bad than with none.

Same with products on amazon.

CleanWater3 years ago

Why do you think that way?

Wild-Dog3 years ago (1 edit) (+1)

Because there's no human or "honest" element without reviews. Without reviews, all there is is a box for the developer or company to toot their own horn.

If at-least one person (who doesn't sound like a bot) reviews a product, I instinctively feel better about the product and creator compared to without reviews.

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dw4i23 years ago(+2)

I see, you make a good point. Then, the review system in itch.io was intended more like a feedback system, while the comment section is more akin to what customers use for reviews (or what other sites would call reviews).

Wild-Dog3 years ago(+1)

I think that's how it should be. Something to send direct feedback and something to talk about the game with.

CleanWater3 years ago (1 edit)

Wild-Dog and dw4i2, Itch.io also have the integrated community for games. If that's the case, you can use it to discuss the game with other players as well. Also, the rating (1 to 5 stars) is also visible to everyone besides the developer.

If you don't mind me to ask, what you understand as "review"? Which meaning this word have for you and what it should be used for?

Wild-Dog3 years ago(+1)

A visible comment others can see, usually about the game's quality that gives feedback and inspires discussion or purchasing decisions.

CleanWater3 years ago (2 edits)

In theory, yes, but from my own personal experience and observations, no.

Did you ever heard about "mob mentality"? Things can get nasty for a developer that can't afford to use it at his/her own favor (those who are usually working alone) and falls in the hands of someone who's not well-intentioned and want to strike his/her work through reviews.

Besides, we already have the game's community for this, no?

Wild-Dog3 years ago

And you're saying you've been a victim of mob mentality? A small-time indie dev like yourself?

CleanWater3 years ago

What are your true intentions with this comment Wild-Dog?

Wild-Dog3 years ago

You don't seem like you have much experience on itch.io and you've only got one game to your profile. What experience do you have dealing with "mob mentality" when there's so little to attract a mob's attention here?

CleanWater3 years ago(+3)

Wild-Dog, if I were on your place (like I once was) I would think the same way as you now and I can't judge neither condemn you for that.

My blog is in PT-BR, but you can use the Google Translator tab to view it on your own language. You can check my whole history as an indie dev there. The last chapter (Chapter X) where I tell my experiences with a game which achieved second place on Steam store is there.
https://alyssonlneto.blogspot.com/2021/04/o-pagode-do-sucesso.html

This game's now available for free here on Itch.io on my old company profile (which is also showcased on my own profile here):
https://cleanwatersoft.itch.io/porradaria-2

I also studied a lot about Psychology to become a teacher during my Math Licentiate Degree course and delved further into this science by my own, specially because of marketing strategies, and I have 7 years of experience working as a professional indie dev who solely lived of his games.

Hopefully this will clarify your doubts and misconceptions about myself.

Have a nice day!

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dw4i23 years ago(+2)

Ok, fair enough, I'm naive. With "review" tbh, I was mostly thinking "positive comment that would help increase the popularity of the game". Of course reviews can also be negative... but I never saw people really trashing each other for indie games so... I didn't think about it. Anyway, the deciding factor for me when I consider getting a game is its page, which includes the comment section. And from now on I'll just leave a comment, no problem. I'll never leave reviews in the "review" prompt, just ratings. As is, that text box might as well not be there, is the ultimate feedback I'd give to those in charge of this site.

CleanWater3 years ago(+1)

dw4i2, if I'm not wrong, your reviews also appear on you profile feed for those who follow you.

Also, it's not everyone who gets trashed "for free", only those who suffer some kind of prejudice for some reason. Here on Itch.io I never saw this type of conduct, but on a particular competitor store, it's looks like an war zone. Small indie games from devs who doesn't belong to their private circle doesn't seem to be welcome there.

There's a developer (that's also an Youtuber and is friends with other developers who also harassed me) who trashed one of my most well know games on his channel and incited a lot of hate on me before, I got tons of negative reviews bombing, insults, etc. I wrote about this experience on my blog (in PT-BR, but you can Google Translate the text with the translate tab).

You can check my post here if you wish:
https://alyssonlneto.blogspot.com/2019/09/ninja-brasileiro-no-castelo-do-pagode....

I really love Itch.io for what it is and I hope it keeps supporting all developers as it currently does.

dw4i23 years ago (1 edit) (+2)

yes they do, but comments also appear to outside users! People who don't have an account here. So... I think comments are better?

What you describe does seem like mob mentality, which is common on the internet... but I'm not sure the review system is what's truly protecting developers here. Ill-intentioned people could still leave a negative rating AND a negative public comment... although that'd require 1 step more and thankfully people are lazy. I'd say one of the reasons there aren't many negative comments around is that... it's harder to get popular? maybe? idk, not an expert at all. I also very much like how friendly is itch.io to small creators and hope it stays this way.

CleanWater3 years ago

dw4i2, if developers notices people are abusing from the comments on their page, they can either completely remove it, or change to a community based project, which is much better than having negative comments on the store page degrading their work. The Itch Team was really smart to think ahead about these possibilities.

Itch.io is a great place to publish games, but it's not everyone who can make it to the top, so it's more likely to happens with someone who's outstanding somehow, which awakens all sorts of feelings on direct competitors.

These countermeasures can't prevent harassment at all, but it can hinder most attempts and save any developer from massive review bombing consequences in the future.