Post by dominicosoba in Secret Route Discussion (Spoilers Within)

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okay, so.. while in theory, I admire the concept of a hard route for a secret character, I think the manner it's been implemented here is pretty lacking. what I enjoy most about ZAGS (as with most other visual novels) is the writing & characters, and, to be honest, i was excited to start this route to get the chance to know Tom and Eva (and Steve, even though interactions with him are very limited) after kind of ignoring them & the frat house overall while chasing the other routes. however I do feel these characters were kind of done dirty by putting them on the secret route since it's getting very hard for me not to start disliking them when I'm constantly rolling back dialogue or reloading saves to dance around their invisible sensibilities without any way to tell if I'm even doing it the right way. after a good amount of attempts and ending the game with all 4 of the secret route characters at 100 friendship several times, I still haven't gotten it, and those last few playthroughs I haven't been focusing on what's going on with the story at all; just doing trial and error over and over again with the ctrl key held down, which I'm not sure was the desired direction; if it was, I don't feel like it's a particularly engaging or effective design decision, but that might just be me.

I'm not looking to turn this reply into a review because I do have mixed feeling on ZAGS on a number of things but my feelings about the game are mostly positive. I think its highs are definitely interacting with its characters and getting to know them and see how they help shape Carlos' newfound awareness of himself on each route, and the lows... well, it's definitely the planner. it's completely forgettable and honestly feels more like a chore that you have to slog through every in game week to get to the fun bits before you figure out a good default and just put it out of your mind, so I definitely appreciated the option for an easy mode right from the get go because (in my experience) it makes the planner barely matter at all, which imo is a great thing! the secret route though... basically feels like the whole game is planner-fied, and locking story content behind it, especially content that matters a lot if you played YAGS, I honestly think that's not great. I'm frustrated enough where I've just given up and waiting for someone to post a walkthrough for it, or just keeping my fingers crossed you decide to patch it to be more accessible for easy/standard, which I'm not sure you're planning on. sorry for the rant, and it kinda sucks to be parting with the game on these feelings, but.. it is what it is

bobcgames3 years ago

Thanks for the detailed thoughts, and what you've written is totally fair!

I like creating hard games that require a (arguably excessive) amount of effort to beat. My testers are good at reining in this instinct by making me add difficulty settings (see: YAGS, Over The Moon), but the secret route in YAGS (and ZAGS) are where I reserve the right to keep my original fiendish designs.

If you're approaching Tom and Eva from the mindset of "I have to get Elliot's route", I understand why it would get annoying, fast. My intent was that players would explore the frat house and its characters for the sake of the story, without even knowing there was a route there, much like you'd befriend Adam in YAGS without realizing he was romancible.

Which is not to write off your concerns at all... I'll look into further simplifying the route on easy mode in the next build. Because while I want the route to be a puzzle, I don't want it to turn into a slog.

As far as the planner goes, you're actually the first negative feedback I've gotten about it, and that's really good to know! In YAGS there were a lot of week skips (especially toward the end) where you had very little control, and that seemed to confuse players. ZAGS attempted to make this a bit more customizable via the planner, but I absolutely understand if it's not your thing.

Unfortunately, I there's not much I can do about that piece, since it's pretty fundamental to how the game is designed, but I'm glad you feel you can mostly kick it out of the way in most of the routes, at least.

Sorry if this isn't quite the answer you wanted. I really do appreciate the feedback though. I think, in my mind, the secret route has always been more of a "bonus" than a thing players would need to hit, but I've also been bad at that since there are achievements and unlocks associated with it. But the fact that you relate enough to the characters to find this important does mean a lot to me. :)

bobcgames3 years ago

dominicosoba, would you be interested in trying out a new build of the game with a potential fix? I've added a new "very easy" difficulty setting (that unlocks once you've completed the four standard routes on any difficulty) which significantly lowers the requirement for the secret route: It now relies only on the visible friendship bars, many of the hidden checks are gone, and you have a bit more leeway with Tom.

I totally understand if you don't want to be a guinea pig, and just want to wait until someone else tests it and/or a walkthrough exists. But if you're interested, send me an email at bobcgames(at)gmail ?

dominicosoba3 years ago

hey there! I'd love to test out the very easy setting, if it helps! I'll shoot you an email when I get the chance. thanks for doing this! I really appreciate it a lot that you're taking the time to accommodate one random comment and take time from your day to add this in :)

I think my dislike of the planner is just due to the way I usually approach visual novels; like I mentioned before, I'm way more interested in the characters & world building than the actual 'game' side of the, well, game! that's not to say I can't enjoy a different visual novel experience than the classic just-click-through-text shtick, but rather that when the more gameified aspects get in the way or cut off access from story beats I care about, I'm quick to lose interest. It might be because VNs are so clearly delineated in my mind as story-based games first and foremost; for management simulator type gameplay, I'd rather just play something else and focus on that, haha. that's not to say that I think you should stop experimenting with systems when/if you make more visual novels in the future; if anything, I'm excited to see what you put out next!

bobcgames3 years ago(+1)

That's totally fair! The planner was very much an experiment, but I understand how that distracts from the flow of the game... it pulls you out of the narrative-based events and makes you do something very different for a while before you can continue again.

On the plus side, that means you're able to really get into my writing and the story otherwise, so that's actually a good thing, from my perspective.

Samtoinette3 years ago(+1)

I have to agree about the planner not being great... Maybe in future games (Another Gay Sequel???) you could have a planner as an extra for those who like it, or just give a general "I did blah-blah-blah for the next x amount of days/weeks"

I like that we can save and load a default at least, I just wish we could save our initial preference for the planner rather than the entire thing be "frat leisure"(I hardly have him hang out at the frat except trying to get Elliot's route).

I had to play YAGS a few times from scratch to really get into it because it's a slow start.. but Adam was the saving grace for me honestly and I was SO GLAD you could romance him. I really liked the way it was done, even the time skips were fine. I honestly hoped he was romanceable here too but I understand seeing Carlos as a brother.

The writing and characters are still amazing, but I still prefer YAGS.

itch.io

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