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Viewing post in [#CommunismIsEvil] - How about you work in the fields.
"Yea. I mean, maybe it did happen, but 9 million is just too big a number."
9 million is also a made-up number. And let's count how many people would have died if the imperialist war (World War I) had continued? How many people would have died in a civil war, after the collapse of the Russian Empire? And it had already actually collapsed under the provisional government. How many people would have died of starvation if grain exports continued, and speculators continued to raise prices? How much more starvation would have continued if collective farms had not been built? How many people would have lived in poverty in the villages? How would people have lived in the cities without industrialization? How many people would have died from German imperialism in the 1940s if the revolution had not won in Russia? How many people would have died from banditry, which was a monstrous problem amid total poverty? How many people would have died from nationalism in Russia? How would the working class be living now if the proletarian revolution had not won in Russia?
The Communists saved Russia and not only Russia. But now the Communists are not trusted. This makes the whole world more and more a shithole and mad every day. On the other hand, as the crisis grew, Marxist circles and the labor movement revived and intensified each year.
What does this have to do with the Holocaust? Where did the 9 million come from? Did you dream them up?
"Also claming the ideology that killed millions somehow saved people lol.
That's the point, it didn't kill them, it saved them. I even listed what the revolution in Russia gave the people of Russia and the world. So what am I wrong? There was no famine before the revolution? There was. There were hunger riots. There were conflicts on ethnic and religious grounds. Especially in Asia and the Caucasus. The monstrous living conditions of the workers. The poverty of the countryside. The collapse of the country. Huge foreign debts. Weak industry. Illiteracy. Monstrous crime and corruption. And all these problems were consistently solved by communists. But you don't want to notice this, instead you imagined 9 million victims, and that's why we don't need to build communism.
And, by the way, the First World War wasn't started by communists either.
The “Holodomor” is Holocaust denial. You are doing Holocaust denial. You are downplaying/justifying the actions of literal nazis. You have been doing Holocaust denial this entire conversation. You don’t give af about the Jewish people or any actual victims of actual genocide. You literally only care to think about or mention them as some cheap, baseless “gotcha.” Or worse, as a footnote to your fun little “trolling.” You are reducing actual human beings and cultures to a political tool at best, and disposable ammunition for your own, petty amusement at worst.
You are the Holocaust denier here you dense little philistine. Trolling or not, what you’re doing is despicable, and in a just society you would unironically face retribution.
The deaths that resulted due to the leadership of certain communist governments in the past, such as that of Stalin and Mao, were numerous. The causes of these deaths ranged from famine, imprisonment, executions, and deaths through forced labour. The millions of lives belonging to families and loved ones were cut short due to the ideological brutality of these regimes. These were the lives of people who once had dreams and once loved. This guy says: "It's all a bunch of horse shit!" He says the numbers are all exaggerated and they're unrealistic. Because if there's anybody who knows about recording the deaths of millions of people, it's this guy.
The Holodomor or famine of 1932-1933 was not genocide. It was a famine caused by severe crop failure and drought. The main casualties during this period were from epidemics, which were exacerbated by the famine. But it was not a policy of extermination. The Soviet government fought the famine, it bought food and sent it to the affected areas. All possible forces were thrown into the fight against the epidemic, and the fight against speculators and people who stole food was intensified. These measures made it possible to stop the epidemic and save many lives. Later collectivization and agricultural development finally solved the problem of famine in the USSR. There is no reason to consider the famine of 1932-1933 a genocide.
The Gulag was a correctional camp, not an extermination camp. Yes, the USSR had the death penalty. The death penalty is still practiced in some countries. But it was not genocide. It were executions of court-ordered punishments for crimes.
Before the Great Leap, China was a backward agrarian country. The goal of the Great Leap was industrialization and economic upswing. Oil fields were built, terraced farming and irrigation facilities become widespread. During the Great Leap, experience and skills were gained, which came in handy in the further development of the country. Villages where poor people lived established weaving workshops and forges during the Great Leap, which have now grown into textile factories and plants. Certainly many mistakes were made. These mistakes were compounded by incompetent cadres, traitors and counter-revolutionaries, and the breakdown of friendly relations with the USSR, where counter-revolutionaries came to power. But the mistakes were corrected, the traitors were punished, and the positive results were developed and multiplied. The people who died from mistakes during the Great Leap is a great tragedy for the Chinese people and the whole world, but there is no reason to call this policy genocide either.
Pogroms during the Cultural Revolution are a negative thing, but the Cultural Revolution played a huge positive role in identifying enemies of the working class and neutralizing them as a political force for a while. But it was not genocide either.
So, none of your examples is an act of genocide. And it can in no way be equated with a policy of racially targeted extermination of people by the nationalists of the 3rd Reich.
Fact No.1: The famine of the great leap forward was caused not by communists, but by Liu Shaoqqi and Deng Xiaoping, the infamous capitalists in CCP (yeah there were capitalists in that party, they were called "走资派" and existed for a very long time), who ran the country like a state-owned company. The tasks of this movement delivered to local departments are based on profits and not the quality of people's lives, which soon led to corruption, starvation, and bureaucracy. Things didn't turn out well and people's life went hell.
Meanwhile, the communists in the party were struggling with the capitalists, they wrote many letters instructing how to improve the situation and end the famine, but all those letters were blocked and never reached the hands of the workers and farmers because the capitalists were not happy about it, until Mao Zedong wrote a letter (党内通信——致六级干部的公开信), directly bypassing the national information agency and connected the communists with local workers and farmers. The situation then had an improvement.
Liu Shaoqi was the chairman of China at that time, not Mao.
Fact No.2: Liu Shaoqi got overthrown by the people during the Cultural Revolution for the crimes he committed back in the great leap forward, because the people were given the power to fight against local government. There was that famous quote of Mao, "Revolution is no crime, to rebel is justified (革命无罪，造反有理)."
The party gave the people the power to overthrow authorities, so what do you expect those authorities, who were capitalists united around Liu Shaoqi to do? You think they'll just sit there and accept their fate? Of course not, they will suppress those who dare to revolt at all costs.
The revolutionary people were called "造反派", while the claws of the capitalists were called "保守派" (i.e. "联动" "西纠"). During the cultural revolution, there were countless violent conflicts between 造反派 and 保守派. And 保守派 did many mass executions of 造反派 with the intention of resisting the cultural revolution from taking their crowns, because they were the majority of those in power. There is only mass execution of communists made by capitalists, not of capitalists made by communists.
History is two-sided, subjectively-described, complex, having many turns, and with many conflicts of interest. It is pushed forward by the wills of groups of people, and can't be explained with "oh l00k a D1ct4t0r". If you don't understand this, maybe you have not reached the intellectual standard to meddle in such discussion.
@Certanly not Stuff
Again using sources from wikipedia where there're just bunch of lies and anti-communist propaganda huh?
These pages are stupid as hell. lemme give it a quick crackdown.
"Beginning with the Red August of Beijing, massacres took place nationwide" - your so-called "evidence"
who? what part of the people is the massacred ones? what part is the one massacring the other one? is the red guard united or separated?
"tens of millions of people were persecuted" - your so-called "evidence"
who persecuted these people? the revolting people or those 保守派 in power?
Local officials were fearful of Anti-Rightist Campaigns and they competed to fulfill or over-fulfill quotas which were based on Mao's exaggerated claims - your so-called "evidence"
this is false. the one in charge is not Mao but Liu at that time. Mao's words can hardly go out of his house (letters like 党内通信 ——建议召开县五级干部大会 were blocked, speeches addressed to the officials like 在第二次郑州会议上的讲话 were hardly accepted by any of the officials). the real cause of the actions of the local officials was Liu's leadership, this can be easily informed of from Liu's quote:
搞大跃进就象吹气球一样，气吹足了 气球就飞起来了。把全国的老百姓都吹起来了，大跃进就更加轰轰烈烈了。国务院的工作 离不开你，我到全国各地替你去吹好了。 - Liu Shaoqi talking to Zhou Enlai, June 1958
对，就要这样干，今年跃进，明年 再来一个大跃进，后年还要大跃进，只要不断地跃进，我们赶英国就快了 。- Liu Shaoqi's speech at Mt. Shijing, July 1958
一万斤是不是少了点，能不能搞它个三万斤、五万斤？这样可以 更好的鼓励全国人民大跃进的积极性么。- Liu Shaoqi talking to Wang Renzhong, August 1958
In comparison, Mao has stated the main problem not only once, calling the government officials to "tell the truth, don't blow up the trumpet"
包产能包多少，就讲能包多少，不讲 经过努力实在做不到而又勉强讲做得到的假话。收获多少，就讲多 少，不可以讲不合实际情况的假话。对各项增产措施......每项都不可讲假话。老实人，敢讲真话的人，归根到底，于 人民事业有利，于自己也不吃亏。爱讲假话的人，一害人民，二害自 己，总是吃亏。应当说，有许多假话是上面一些人强迫出来的......使下面很难办。因此，干劲一定要有，假话一定不可讲。 - 党内通信——致六级干部的公开信
If you write "I used wikipedia as source" in your paper, let's see how hard your professor will curse you, oh wait, maybe you never wrote one yourself, that's sad.
if you're such a weak sheep, why not read the files CIA wrote when they were investigating in China, and see if they said there was even a famine?
https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/DOC_0001098172.pdf
I've studied this part of history for at least 4 years, reading countless statistics, analyzing the power generation and average food amount, and analyzed the conflicts of interests hidden in the countless material that were directly written by some of those who participated in it. your struggle on this one only shows your ignorance and stupidity, and how easy it is to decieve you with one page filled with false information.
In these pages there're zero evidence from statistics, all essays from us and hongkong university, so-callled "evidence" from site of rumor and newspaper. it doesnt sound objective and realistic to me. does it sound objective to you? what kind of moron would fall for that?
You can literally just search some of the nouns i mentioned up there and read about what really happened. The contemporary sources are there, but of course you won't read them, because you're a lazy and gross person who just likes to eat what the mass media industry of capitalism vomits out.
if you're denying you should read contemporary statistics from both sides, this is the end of the discussion. Bruh literally waging war against the basic measure of history learning.
You refer to Wikipedia and say that the Holodomor was widely accepted as a result of Stalin's policies. But it was accepted by capitalists to fool people. To scare people who don't know the truth. To move the conversation about communism from an economic and class issue to the accusation of genocide. I'd better refer to the excellent collection of documents, The Hunger in the USSR 1929-1934:
The documents are in Russian, but you can use the translator:
Here we see that the dissidents disrupted the food harvest in 1932. By winter, the government deploys an active struggle against sabotage, theft, speculation, and withholding of food. When the famine begins, the Union government takes the problem under special control and begins to actively, centrally assist the affected areas. The main causes of the famine in 1932-1933 were: disruption of harvest, crop failure and bad weather. The most effective during the famine were the collective farms. Centralized distribution minimized the number of deaths from starvation.
So Stalin's policy saved people from the famine, which was caused by those who wanted to overthrow Stalin and bring back capitalism. Therefore, you are making a vain mistake when you blame Stalin and communists for the Holodomor. Think about it. Why did Stalin need to cause a famine?
Various criminals, not just political criminals, were imprisoned in the Gulag system. The criminals were paid a wage for their labor. When their sentence ended, they went free with money, profession, and most of them were successfully incorporated into Soviet society. And you call it genocide.
I wrote "Certainly many mistakes were made". How did you turn that into "a few mistakes"? And, of course, only idiots would undertake industrialization. Only idiots would think to develop their country's economy. So it is.