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No further balance changes on the web version?

It's nice that those bugs are fixed regardless

I think I would hate SP spending being capped 3 per turn, because it would increase the mental load, without giving enough in return. But if I (have to) try it out, I might change my mind.

Part of the issue (with the current system) might be that mana-based characters can spend SP to pick up those mushrooms, with Dex-based characters that defeats the point. Part of the issue is that mana-based characters use up SP too, so the shrooms refill SP and mana, which feels better. Part of the problem is that I hardly ever use up all my mana, and I'm often ok going into a fight at 80% mana, but I do often use up all my SP, and I really don't want to start a fight without maxed out SP. Part of the issue (or maybe the culmination of all this) is that mushrooms don't feel effective enough at refilling SP, when they do feel effective at refilling mana. I can't rule out it playing a role that the mushrooms are purple, not blue.
As for why waiting at all feels bad, having to press 'rest' too much slows the game down. And I do like that, honestly, it makes the game feel more alive.

The 'problem' you seem to diagnose, that SP regen would be 'too strong' could be fixed simply by reducing the amount of SP regen. Maybe 0.2 / Dex / turn is too strong, then just pick a smaller number. 0.1 regen every other level would let you reach half a sprint point per turn at the cost of not getting 80 hp.

Getting max hp increases is very valuable to me, with most characters it's worth putting at least 2 points into Strength. I don't see that changing, unless the numbers associated with Dex are too high. (But I can't see the point in investing in Int with Dex- or Str focussed characters, unless it is to buy specific talents. That wouldn't change either.)

As for the equipment, look you can't guarantee getting +maxSP equipment in any particular game. I agree there should be equipment in the game which grants extra maxSP, whether that is by explicitly granting +maxSP or implicitly by granting Dex doesn't matter (to me). None of my or Justin-Wang's proposals would have removed +maxSP form all these items. I think you're making a mountain of a mole-hill here.

If I'm reading you correctly you really like the current system because getting 2 extra SP (from Dex or equipment) is (for you) extremely valuable, and at some point they stop being so valuable even for bow users, and that encourages characters to hybridise, and you want to keep that?

@Justin Wang: I can see that reworking some items would probably be a lot less work from your end ;)

I would note that in about half the games where I have +SP items, they're technically +Dex items. It's not uncommon for a Dex-based character to never find a single +SP item. Also there are games where getting 19 Dex is entirely reasonable. (If you get the gun and a Dex altar for example)

If you want to limit the SP cap characters reach more effectively, you could also have every odd Dex level grant +maxSP and every even Dex level grant +SPregen. That would also further differentiate SP from Mana.

Also as a player I prefer if +regen item have properties like +50% SP regen, rather than -1 turn SP cooldown. The scaling is different, with the former every next pip of SP regen has a smaller relative effect, whereas with the latter every next pip of regen is more important than the last. Which makes me feel like I have less options, because if I commit I have to really commit, and with the randomness of a roguelike sometimes you can't really commit.

@Random595: with mana-based builds it feels reasonable that you have to use mushrooms to get your mana back up in the late game. It doesn't quite feel the same with SP-based builds. Not sure why.

... which isn't necessarily bad. RF4 is very arcade as a whole, really cultivating the feeling that you're playing a game. Sprint points allowing you to basically freeze time does fit with that. The only thing about sprint points that feels unambiguously bad is how long it takes for your sprint points to recharge in the late game, if you have a pool of (say) 9SP.

But it got me thinking of a system which would feel less arcade, and more like agility gives your character muscle speed:
  * agility (mainly) increases SPregen instead of your maxSP.

To be more specific, you could do it for example like this:
  * most characters have no SPregen, only getting new SP from mushrooms
  * your SPregen increases by 0.2 per Agility point. (Or maybe 0.1, if that's more balanced.)
  * the total SP pool of most characters is 2. Or maybe 1. Rare equipment or talents could perhaps increase this.
  * the lava-fueled SP boots and other SP-granting skills could perhaps grant SP beyond the maxSP, but they're lost if they're not used that turn.

This would result in the late game in characters sprinting 1 tile every turn, or 2 tiles every other turn, which would feel more like Agility and less like time magic than the current system. It would also make the Sprint and Jump talent feel more unique.

Even if this turns out to be a bad idea, or if Justin doesn't want to take the game in this direction, I'd be curious to see what a race would do where Agility functions like this.

In ice Yendor 3 I pick off the giants in groups of no more than 4. Pretty easy.

In Ice Yendor 1 and 2, I wasn't even aware you can pick off the giants without involving everyone. I've found than an extremely challenging room. Recently killed me again when I was trying to find a use case for the electric spell that spreads to adjacent units.

Which gets back to the original topic: lightning bolt might be extremely strong, but all the other the Air Mage skills feel weak.

First of all, I do like the way RFIV is balanced right now, mostly. But it's obviously not perfect.

I especially like that there are lots of skills that are worth buying & using at level 1, and buying the 2nd level just makes them useful more often, but a level 1 skill rarely becomes redundant just because you got a level 2 skill. (For example with Life Spike, the electric skill that spreads to 4 targets, all of the Ice Mage skills...)

I imagine part of the reason for bringing this early release version online must have been to see how the balance can be improved. Now I could provide a list with "Fireball 1 is good, Fireball 2 is not worth it. Ice Shield 1 is worth more than Ice Shield 2 (because the hp shield of Ice Shield 2 regenerates too slowly), which breaks the established patterns. Dominate 2 is worth 2 skill points, but upgrading Dominate 1 -> Dominate 2 is not worth it..." but in that format it would be very difficult to combine the opinions of different people. And I haven't memorised the list of skills, so you'd be getting incomplete surveys, which makes it even harder to determine whether there is a majority opinion among players.

If you don't actually want a systematic review, but just the things that bug people most, let me bring these points to your attention:

• Ice Shield 2 regenerates too slowly
• There's this skill where level 1 gives +20% and the second level only 10% (for a total of 30) to magic power
• The electricity skill where damage spreads between enemies, level deserves to have at 2 range (up from 1.5)
• Dominate 1 would be good enough probably if you could only dominate 1 creature and required skin contact
• Freeze 1 should probably apply a 50% reduction to damage applied to frozen enemies
• Buying enchantment scrolls from the Enchanter is too expensive. The librarian sells 2 scrolls for 75, the merchant 1 scroll for 50
• I think the Ranger would be more interesting if you got bonus range with Power Shot 2. As is, I usually buy the Perfect Aim talent and Piercing Shot 2, and never invest in Power Shot 2 or in the skill where you shoot 3 arrows. The 3 arrow skill is far more interesting if you don't already have massive range.

completely agree, a consumable flame-source summon would work much better for FE than the flaming sphere

I do value to exception for 'deep sleep' enemies, but I think that's the only case where it helps. It should be possible to keep that very special case.

I just had a necromancer lose 50 hp in a single turn in the 2nd Vault of Yendor. I thought I was safe for one more turn, was planning to quaff a healing potion next.

I could learn a lot more from this if I wasn't stuck unable to examine the dungeon after death. All I can take away from this as-is is "You should examine everything that can possibly hit you in the boss room", which I know I'm probably not going to do next time either, because I'm too lazy

 Perhaps 'ghost mode' after you die would be nice, where you can just float around and examine stuff.

I guessed that was the reason, but I'd prefer if my strafe attacks did trigger on sleeping/unaware enemies. It doesn't help that an enemy can become aware and attack in the same turn, so sometimes you're strickly worse off because an enemy was 'unaware'.

I actually had a lot less trouble with Fire Mage than with Ice and necro mage, because you can usually finish fights with a single mana pool by spamming spells.

Something similar happened to me just now, but I know the cause. Which was that in my game [Synax the snake charmer] [Shadow step]ped into a tile that a [Rattle snake] also tried to move into.

... for Burst of Flame and Flame Portal

Interesting perspective. I'll try it out. What do you think of Flame Portal II?

and a second win with today's game of the day. Very similar build; apparently this build suits me.

I won my second game, as a barbarian. Some comments on game design:

1. Charms are great! (But I haven't seen them enough.) This was the first game where I got a charm, which gave +2sp, which I put in my ranged slot. I'm not sure it made me stronger, but it changed how the game played a lot, and it was very fun. I'd consider giving some characters a starting charm, for example mages for +mana, or barbarian for +sp.
2. Strafing is very fun, but I find it pretty hard to predict who will be hit when. It would help me as a player if hovering over a tile with the mouse highlighted the enemy that would be hit by the strafe attack (if there is one) and the weapon that is used (if there is one). (That last part mostly because I still remember how as a Ranger I'd keep hitting enemies with my bare fists.)
3. Finding an altar of strength as a strength-based character was deliciously OP. I sold most of my spare equipment to buy Strength points (and a few potions for the final boss).
4. The books of knowledge where you get a free talent point in the skill you pick work really well to make me try out new abilities and combinations.
5. Shadow Step was very nice, and makes me see what the teleport abilities of the mage classes could be. I don't see much use for those abilities as they currently are. Perhaps if they were free once every 20 turns (or once every level-up even) I'd experiment with them more.
6. Poison sucks. I blew a few consumables fighting the boss with the poison vipers and the poisoned knife, because poison is deadly when green mushrooms aren't nearby. But I never found use for the blade. +25% chance of 200% poison is +50% damage on average, but it's incredibly hard for that damage to be useful. The mace and the handaxe were my weapons throughout the game.
7. I bought Power Strike and Cyclone Strike, which I usually don't have on a Barbarian, and they were very helpful against Grapple.
8. Playing without the mouse (or even playing with touchpad) feels impossible.
9. Could there be some kind of visual warning that a weapon won't benefit from any more stats? Maybe highlight it in gold or whatever. (Though that could also be confusing. :/ )
10. Bosses feel like they generally cost me more resources than they guard, but killing all the bosses is fun.
11. Battle axe (2Handed, 6 more damage than handaxe) feels like a extremely bad deal. Perhaps that was only because I had a +2 shield of reflection.
12. At the end of the game, I probably should have used my Wand of Fire to charge up my Molten Forged Boots. Finding fire damage is hard, and the wand scales poorly.
13. Life tap saved my life when I was fighting a swarm of fire bats (or at least meant I didn't need to use consumables)
14. The Core is a very scary branch, even with 70% fire resist.
15. (Not related to this character) Fireball 2 feels sucky. +6 damage in the center, when previously it was +4 damage everywhere, and on plain fireball I mostly use the edges of the fireball in the first place. Maybe it it also provided a 1-turn stun in the centre square... (no that would probably be OP, stun-locking bosses and such).
16. It would be great if there was a key for 'attack melee if possible, otherwise attack ranged if possible, otherwise wait' (or if Q could be configured to do this)

I wouldn't like the visual noise that highlighting below-20% hp enemies would give.

As for the power level of KS: few enemies survive more than 5 hits. Bosses can receive +100% damage vs Discord and can apparently be frozen in a block of ice. I think with the current mechanics getting instant kills at 40% hp wouldn't be too far out of the scope of the reasonable. But KS killing enemies without extra actions being required would still feel nicer to me.

I understand why Dominate doesn't effect bosses, but it not being mentioned in the skill description made me a bit paranoid.

I think I misunderstood how the range of the freeze spell works, probably the kraken was out of range and I misinterpreted it as 'boss immunity'.

I suppose the first pip is worth it in the late game as a boss-killing tool then, particularly for the end boss. And it sounds like Killing Strikes would let you snipe low-%hp enemies with the bow? For the most part I wouldn't be willing to put in that effort.

Dominate is the big one.

I felt like the skill that freezes enemies in a block of ice also refuses to trigger on bosses. I had a fight with an Enchanter against the octopus (with the tentacles) where only my Discord and Confuse skill did anything at all, I had to blow a lot of resources on that fight. Though I can't remember what spells I had precisely, and it's possible I misunderstood other game mechanics.

Killing Strikes also fits here, somewhat. My initial interpretation was that it would auto-kill an enemy if it had less than 20% health left after a melee attack, or if you end your turn next to an enemy with less than 20% hp. (I wasn't sure which.)

Does it trigger on bosses? I don't know how I'd be able to know, and other skills have had unexpected exceptions for bosses before.

I'm particularly looking at the Barbarian's bloodlust, and considering whether +3 melee damage for 5 turns will ever be worth the loss of a turn. You already have to be on blood, which already makes it situational. If it was an instant ability I think it'd be cool and worth having.

So having used it, I feel like bloodlust is actually instant, but that could have been clearer in the UI?

Earlier I lost a character because Second Wind cost a turn, which I didn't anticipate. Second Wind is strong enough that I can see you justifying it should cost a turn. Then again, instant or not is worth about 1sp, which brings it back to a question of preferred design.

I've also had a character killed the turn he cast Evade, because a monster noticed (and killed) him immediately. That also felt somewhat unfair.

Hi,

Playing a game with the ranger, it took me a while to figure out that left-clicking on an enemy tries to move towards it because it tries to execute a melee attack. And right-clicking tries to execute a ranged attack. Even after I figured out how it worked I kept left-clicking because it felt like that was more natural, until it eventually killed me.

As for how to fix this, I'm not sure. I can see what you're trying to do I think. Maybe other players have ideas.

BTW, thanks for the game! It looks great!

Got it below 10 minutes. 3 early enlargements, 2 early accelerations, freezing, too much reflection, and 3 multiplications for 6 damage per hit.

I've changed my mind a little; attraction without multiplication is often a risk.

I beat the dev score too. Attraction + reflection, enlargement, and acceleration, and NO multiplication ensures you one-shot everything, and you hit everything fairly quickly.

I'd love to see a more fleshed-out version, with more different types of enemies.

PS: attraction and freezing are vastly overpowered compared with everything else. multiplication is only worth it if you get freezing, but if you do it is amazing.