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This platform could be way better at giving serious devs a chance.

A topic by FreshToucan created Apr 27, 2021 Views: 1,026 Replies: 26

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FreshToucan3 years ago (1 edit) (+3)

Hi,

My name is Mathieu and I have been using Itch for a little more than two weeks now and I have some thoughts on the platform that I would like to share. First, I think It is a great way to share indie games online. Games have great visibility and creators receive valuable feedback. A lot of quality games are highlighted and shown on the front page. There is no other place like it. Unfortunately, I do think there is a problem with how games are shown on the platform.

I have tried quite a lot of different games in the past week. I picked games from the popular pages, popular tags and recently added ones. Some of them were quality games, games that you can clearly see that a certain level of effort was put into them. There were also other games which were memes, total rip-offs, jokes, and shit-posting. Now, maybe these games also belong on the platform, but they should be separated from the quality content. (By quality, I do not mean games that I think are fun. I mean QUALITY) I understand that a lot of quality titles never get the attention they deserve because of bad presentation or low effort publishing, but after digging deeper I think some delightful titles are simply unseen because they are hidden below tons and tons of low effort ones. Now this is always going to happen, games will be ignored, but I really think changing the way games are displayed on the platform would benefit serious hard-working developers. Adding memes, shameless clones and shit-posting to their own categories would give some hard-working developers a chance to get valuable feedback on their projects or even get revenue. It would also cleanup the top, recent or the popular pages from poorly made ''Games".

I get that separating quality content from the low effort “games” might not be a viable solution or might not be a solution at all. I do not know how your business runs. Therefore, I think that implementing strict moderation would improve the clutter situation on the platform. I really think that the platform could be a lot better by focusing on original quality content and ditching the anyone can post anything they want however they want approach. Is allowing users to post pong for the thousandth time good for the platform? Is allowing shameless clones of big games like Fall Guys or allowing users to use Sponge Bob, Star Wars, or other established IP's any good? Is that what Itch is about? Cause maybe I do not get it. If I am wrong, please let me know.

I wish you a very pleasant evening,

Mat

evilsn3 years ago(+1)

Telling an established business's owners how to run their own business is a big no-no here in the United States, at least as I learned it in business school a while back and seen firsthand in a decade of entrepreneurship. If they don't solicit such criticism, don't give it to them. It's harassment.

Just my two cents.

---

P.S. I'm aware Itchio is not an American business operation, but it's on the internet, so I don't care.

evilsn3 years ago(+1)

On the other hand...

You bring up good points about market and product segregation, but classifying low effort games and low quality games as shitposting or calling someone's decent hard work, even if they are autistic, neurodiverse, or simply mentally challenged, is not only insulting to said developer, it may become a legal liability in the long run.

It's also rather unethical to call people's creations shitposting without getting consent from the creator in question.

Okay I'm done.

FreshToucan3 years ago(+2)

My point here was to give feedback. Users posting a link to download and install a Game Client of a game they do not own is shit-posting. Ex: Someone posted the Overwatch installer. The post was on the popular games page. It doesn't belong there. It takes up space and makes actual quality content less visible.

leafoAdmin3 years ago(+1)

Someone uploading the Overwatch installer is against our rules. If you see something like that please report it.

FreshToucan3 years ago(+1)

I sure did. Is using IP you do not own against your rules too?

leafoAdmin3 years ago

You can see the TOS here: https://itch.io/docs/legal/terms#3-acceptable-use

I don’t see any reports from your account so I’m unable to confirm if the page you saw was handled appropriately.

evilsn3 years ago

Well maybe you should have been more specific about your definition of what constitutes shit-posting, because from what I read in your OP, the connotation I got was that (and this is corroborated from personal experience back when I was a YouTube Premium member; I no longer am) the populist definition of 'shitposting' is posting content that intentionally denigrates an opposing ideology or denigrating a person (or meme) based on some inherent, inalterable trait, such as skin, hair, or eye color.

I've always had it against shitposting based on the above definition and more so nowadays due to the COVID hate crimes specifically waged against my ethnic community. Anyways... everyone has their own definition of some things; one man's 'shitposting' is another man's 'activism', and so, "do whatever floats your boat"!

pastellexists3 years ago(+1)

I think you've sort of crossed the alt-right definition with the general internet definition.

In short, shitposting is just making dumb jokes, often entirely nonsensical. To use an example from a Twitter account I follow: "sucking cockingly" or "deep in gAy balls mode rn.: might not recover.."

The alt-right posts bigoted messages and says "I'm just shitposting" or "I'm just joking" as a way to seem acceptable to the general populous while dogwhistling to alt-right groups and people, and slowly radicalizing those who come into contact with it.

evilsn3 years ago(+1)

I stopped being a part of this discussion a long time ago; now I am just waiting for everyone else to let this thread die. Good night, mofo's!

Midnight Spire Games3 years ago(+3)

Honestly, letting anyone self-publish is really the whole point of this platform. That has pros and cons, but it's the reason this site exists. It's true that it's hard to stand out in a field of almost 400,000 titles, but the problem is that there's no objective way to apply the quality filters you want. We already have the "featured" and "fresh" sections to showcase subjectively curated content - if you only want to view what the site operators think is the best content, those are the places to look.

I don't think having another level of curation for supposedly undesirable or "joke" projects would be beneficial. If some anonymous curator took something I had worked hard on and threw it in the trash pile where no one will ever see it, I would be pissed. Why would I continue publishing here after seeing my work treated that way?

FreshToucan3 years ago

If some anonymous curator took something I had worked hard on and threw it in the trash pile where no one will ever see it, I would be pissed.

That's my whole point. You said "worked hard on". My point is some of the stuff posted on here are literally someone posting a YouTube tutorial they followed for an hour. Sometimes it's only PONG or another classic well known game they do not own, sometimes it's not even a game ffs. Some people use Intellectual Property they don't own and post it on here. Some people completely rip-off an existing game and post it on here. This pushes quality content downwards in the fresh sections and reduces their visibility.

Midnight Spire Games3 years ago(+1)

That's my whole point. You said "worked hard on".

Right, but we're talking about curation. It doesn't matter what I think of my work; someone at Itch decides whether it counts as a "serious" project that deserves to be in the main listings. What counts as a serious work? Does it have to be on par with Shovel Knight, or is an ugly platformer with one level and no music OK? What if it has five levels? That's my concern - I don't want to have to worry about meeting some unknown quality standard or risk being delisted. As it is, everyone publishes on the same footing, and the staff picks out the things they want to highlight.

If you can think of some clear and concrete standards to support your suggestion, though, I would be interested in hearing them. Copyright infringement is already against the rules, so those instances of course need to be reported and removed. I'm not worried about those.

My point is some of the stuff posted on here are literally someone posting a YouTube tutorial they followed for an hour. Sometimes it's only PONG or another classic well known game they do not own, sometimes it's not even a game ffs.

Is that really such a problem, though? Yes, a lot of things posted here are learning experiences, prototypes, clones made for game jams, and so on. That can be a little frustrating as a user when you're looking for something specific, but the site is here for people to showcase their work, after all. I don't think it's fair to kick projects down to a less visible tier for such subjective reasons.

evilsn3 years ago

IMO, the way I see it, FreshToucan is basically just screaming out that he wants to see privilege, elitism and censorship exercised with a vengeance on this website. Having been around on this community for 4+ years, I can happily report that I feel safe with the way Itch.io is being run right now - that being, not encouraging privilege abuse, elitism and censorship - and that I wish the mods, admin and tech staff keep things the way they are. Status quo isn't always a bad thing. Constant improvement sometimes leads to poisonous outcomes.

PS - that's my own opinion, go get your own. I am not trying to denounce or be condescending towards anyone, here. I can be paranoid at times, and threads like these make me very paranoid.

FreshToucan3 years ago

That's not my point at all. All I'm saying is that troll projects, memes, low effort rip-offs should be in their own categories. Games that use Intellectual Property that they do not own either in-game or in their title as click-bait shouldn't be tolerated as well.

evilsn3 years ago(+1)

Give people room to breathe, man. What you're suggesting is the very essence of censorship. Troll projects, low effort parodies and experimental games are how people are able to express themselves. Take away people's ability to vent their life angst in a video game and you get January 6th going all over again. I don't want to be advocating terrorism or sedition but that's the truth man. Those who make civil discourse illegal make armed rebellion inevitable.

I'm not saying every game maker has a gun (or a pitchfork) or wants to use it (or if they don't, wants to get one), but when you enforce censorship, you make society as a whole, unstable. How do you think the USSR never had a chance to beat the USA in the Cold War? It wasn't due to capitalism being the stronger ideology (that's actually BS because socialism is actually the stronger ideology), but because the USSR censored its people's personal expression so heavily that the really bad stuff went underground, and then when Gorbachev uncensored it with pere-whatever it's called-stroika or something, the torrent of anger and rage came to the forefront, breaking their society into divisive pieces, and leading to the collapse of the Soviet Union, and the subsequent rise of Putin. Censorship is never a good thing.

Categorizing projects based on worth, is censorship. Who determines said worth anyway, and what moral standing do they have to do so? Are we going to have a proper works commission decide who gets to be classified as serious work and who gets to be shat out the seventh story window with the baby and the bathwater? This is all just so inherently immoral.

FreshToucan3 years ago

Categorizing projects based on worth, is censorship.

I said categorize projects on what they are. How is that censorship?

Outfrost3 years ago

You propose this under the assumption that everyone shares the same idea of what is a serious game project and what is a tutorial showoff, an unworthy prototype, a low-effort clone, a meme, a shitpost. That assumption is wrong.

Take the one game you've released on itch as an example. Out there, around the world, there are people who will call your game a serious project, people who will call it a prototype unworthy of any attention, and people who will call it a shitpost, in more equal proportions than you might think. And none of them can be proven wrong.

FreshToucan3 years ago

If you can think of some clear and concrete standards to support your suggestion, though, I would be interested in hearing them.

The goal would be to separate content in a better way. Make a Meme game? Post it in the meme/joke section. Your first unity rolla-ball tutorial project? Post it in a showoff section. You want to make the thousandth among us clone with no twist or unique take? Don't post it in the new multiplayer games. Post it in your personal projects or show off section. You actually made a quality original game? Go ahead and post it in the category that describes your game the most and enjoy being in the fresh new games with other quality original games. That's what I mean by curating.

Does it have to be on par with Shovel Knight, or is an ugly platformer with one level and no music OK?

The ugly plat-former with no sound should be in your personal projects or a showoff section. Not with shovel knight or with other polished games. (By other polished games, I don't mean only well known ones)

My point is, prototypes should be with prototypes, fully polished games should be with fully polished games, memes should be with memes, low quality or beginner projects should be with beginner projects. Is that any clearer?

If I make a meme game , this game should not be tagged with anything other than meme. It shouldn't be with polished action games or polished multiplayer games or serious game prototypes.

Furtivo Criação3 years ago (1 edit) (+1)

A good idea that I frequently see on the forums is the tag exclusion, wich could work to filter some troll games that deliberately include as many tags as possible to appear (unduly) on the search.

Furthermore, we have few sorts options, principally the sorts by popularity keep highlighted always the same games and hides forever to many others.

(I'm sorry for my english. It's not my native language)

FreshToucan3 years ago(+1)

Maybe Tag exclusion would help for experienced users. I still think separate sections for games based on what they really are would help. Strict moderation would also help.

Furtivo Criação3 years ago

Yes. I also think about the possibility of each game have, for example, three main tags and a larger number of general or secundaries tags; and the user could choose to search by main tags ou general/all tags.

evilsn3 years ago(+1)

So you want Itch.io to become just another Steam. How is that going to keep the lights on at Itch.io, once they lose one of their key unique selling points? They are a haven for experimentation. "Fail fast, fail forward, and learn from it", is the motto I see many devs on this site following. If we open up an Itch Greenlight program, then we're nothing more than just another Steam.

Coming from experience as a business owner myself, I can tell you that me-too businesses never work out in the long run. Either they reinvent themselves to compete more effectively with the business model who they copied to get into business, or they go belly up. If you're trying to make Itch.io a facsimile of Steam, and if they follow your suggestions, I foresee that we're all extremely screwed. Also, where will people go to find niche sites where they can share their game design experimentations with, then?! Nowhere.

There's a reason I don't use Steam. It isn't because I'm afraid of quality. Coming from a family with one half a lineage of engineers, scientists and medical practitioners (the other half being military leaders, but that is kind of irrelevant to this discussion), I value experimentation and the ability to do so, quite heavily. I was raised in a household that valued exploration and curiosity, and so I value that myself, and which is why I like hanging out on Itch.io rather than Steam. I may never use Steam in the next decade or so... but I'm already here.

FreshToucan3 years ago

So you want Itch.io to become just another Steam.

No.

CleanWater3 years ago (1 edit) (+4)

When I decided to develop parody games, I suffered a lot of harassment from persons who didn't understand them and trashed my work away.

The same effort a "serious dev" have is the same effort I had to develop my parodies (or maybe even more, since I worked alone and "serious devs" usually works in teams of 3 or 4 in most cases). When I decided to tell my history as an indie dev on my personal blog, it was to show the other side of this coin.

I love Itch.io because of this approach. They don't judge anyone and treat everyone's works with utmost respect. As long as they keep with this, I'll keep supporting them in any way I can.

pastellexists3 years ago(+2)

I think most relevant points have already been made in this thread, but I'll toss my opinion in:

Free distribution of creation is the core of Itch, it's community, and it's mission. Any degree of enforced categorization is an inherently slippery slope, and generally A Bad Idea™.

I generally believe Leaf is a good person with a good framework for what he does with the platform. However, every other platform of distribution, for any medium, in which "quality standards" have been introduced has fallen directly into a pipeline of censorship. The end goal is pushing queer art back to the underground. Indigenous art. Black art. Asian art. Radical art. Anti-capitalist art. The sorts of things the Nazis categorized as "degenerate art" Itch has value due to it's rejection of that pipeline.

It is dangerous to put the key piece to infiltration in play, when society at large has yet to figure out how to organize widespread and decisive antifascist action, and resist infiltration.

That all being said:
I think having tag exclusion and adding a "Joke/Meme" tag is a perfectly acceptable proposition.

This is in reply to only one part of your post, but you can certainly have a high-effort game that parodies or rips off an existing IP. Among them include Around the Clock at Bikini Bottom.

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