MuGen - Music Generator

O.k. I solved the problem with the root key/scale modes, maybe would been better (as long as there is no documentation at all) to not have it set on "randomn scales/signatures" by default......

But still there are no styles, it even is in the description but nothing to choose in the dropdown box and I have not found anything that might activate this in the list on the right:

KodingNightsDeveloper3 years ago (3 edits)

Hi, thank you for buying MuGen!

What do you mean by missing styles? Do you mean song structures?

I hear you regarding documentation, it's at the top of my todo list.

Here are some examples of common structures/musical styles:

Karl Heinz3 years ago (1 edit)

In the picture on the Mugen site for example: POP_Bridge, EDM, POP_SOLO and so on, as you can see in my pictures they are mentioned in the description but they are not available to choose in the box, only the ones you can see like VERSE_CHORUS and so on, the other ones are simply not there ?

Yes, in the description it says "song structures".

KodingNightsDeveloper3 years ago (1 edit)

Ah, I understand. See my attached image for explanation.

I will update the documentation so this is more clear.

The reason is that there are a lot of song types that use the same basic structure. It is the combination of song structure, tempo, keys and chord progressions, the use of 7th notes etc. that determines a song's 'style'.

I was just wondering that I dont get that picture with this song structures directly when I open the program:

Do I have to make some special settings to get this ? Or is the picture just for explanation ? Its just confusing that this picture is different from what I see when I opend the program, there is simply no "POP_BRIDGE" to choose for me like in the picture.

You are right.

It seems like the screenshot is from the previous version of the program. I will fix ASAP.

Thanks :-)

Enough to play around and test for now, great general idea, I am really looking forward to what complete songs this thing is capable of :-)

I am afraid I have the next problem/question. I choose G lydian (which is one of my most used scales/mood), no change to minor/major, but the songs produced landed ALL in G major ? I could understand in a way D major (same notes) even if its not what I want, but from G lydian to G major ?????

KodingNightsDeveloper3 years ago (3 edits)

What would be your preferred/expected result in this case?

The program indeed creates songs that land on the 1, and in G Lydian that becomes G (major) which I agree does not always create the best results as the 1 is unstable in Lydian.

It basically uses G major scale with an augmented/sharp 4th.

To improve I guess it could be an idea to focus the chord progression on the 1, 2, 7 then use the 3, #4, 5 a lot in the melody and resolve the progression on the 5.

Usually in comparable generative programs if you set root note/scale the programs I know only generate songs that are completly follow that scale as MAIN rule for evrything after (melody, chord progression.....). So the resulting song will ALWAYS be in G lydian no matter which other settings you choose.

I have to say I am really not good in music theory (thats why I use these kind of tools :-) ) but it seems that in your tool setting the root note/scale is only ONE component for song generation and you have to exactly know which chords you have to use to get a song in G lydian finally and not in G major.

I really would prefer to work it in the way the other tools do so if I set it to G lydian the resulting songs will be in G lydian, maybe that could be done on the road of further devellopment ? At least as an option to choose.

KodingNightsDeveloper3 years ago (3 edits)

The song is in G Lydian in the sense that all the notes are from the G Lydian scale (which is actually the exact same notes as in a D major scale).

But the program does not emphasize the G Lydian tonality by hitting that #4th.

But if you create a G Lydian song, use a chord progression with a lot of 1's in it and avoid the 5, and maybe even use chord separation and pads I think you will get quite a few good sounding G Lydian compositions. What I usually do is create 10-50 songs, then click through them to find something I like then build upon that.

I feel that part of the reason for using a program like this is to get inspiration, and a big part of that is going 'outside the box' so to speak. So the flexibility regarding mixing of scales, modes, progressions and structure is an intended feature, not a limitation.

That said, I hear you, and it is actually a good idea to have some kind of 'style templates' that the user could select from. I will put it on my todo list as well.

Out of curiosity, what other programs do you use, and how do you think my program compares?

"I feel that part of the reason for using a program like this is to get inspiration, and a big part of that is going 'outside the box' so to speak. So the flexibility regarding mixing of scales, modes, progressions and structure is an intended feature, not a limitation."

Yes, I thought that this was your intention and I appreciate in general. Its just more comfortable if you take different parts from different software if this is clear and simply stays "in tune". For example, one other software I use can import and recognize chords and then you can generate additional parts but for this its needed that you know the root and scale.

Other programs ? Lots of :-). I am really kind of addicted by any kind of generative stuff in this way. Mostly I use it inside DAW, so Captain Plugins, Orb Producer and lately InstaComposer (just to mention a few). I have Wotja too, which is the by far most develloped for any Ambient stuff but really complex and hard to get into. I prefer some simple stuff (for the user and the handling) like your tool in general cause it should be fun to use.

At the moment I cant really judge your program in comparision, for this I think I will have to follow your advise, generate a bunch of songs while playing around with the settings and then see what I can make out of it in a DAW.

Will sure be back with some comments when this is done :-)

Just seen the hint about the steam version and wonder will the devellopment in here be stopped, or will there be different versions ? So do I have to have an account and install steam to use the "final" commercial version ? And where to sent the proof of the purchase, on your website I could not even find any contact info or email adress. But the good thing is that you seem to have high plans for this with ongoing devellopment :-).

KodingNightsDeveloper3 years ago (1 edit)

I will continue to maintain the itch.io version. Send me a PM with the proof and you will get the key. Or just continue checking itch.io for updated versions.

I added a manual to the downloads section, check it out.

Thanks a lot for the manual, that helps a lot :-).

If the updated version within here keeps track with the steam version I am fine with that.

To be honest I have no idea how to sent a pm inside here (forum, itch.io in general), I have looked evrywhere but did not find anything. But as I dont use it much apart from downloading the few music apps I have and commenting on them from time to time (I am no gamer at all :-) ) I am sure I must have overseen something.

Think I will find some time on the weekend for a in detail tryout with the help of the manual, will then be back with my impressions.

I have to come back to the scale/mode thing. Are you sure this works at all ? I have tried all kind of different settings, progressions and went threw ALL the modes, no matter which I choose, even MINOR, all songs generated (at least the naming, maybe its only a naming problem, I dont know) where labelled "G major":

KodingNightsDeveloper3 years ago (1 edit)

Hmm that seems like a bug! Working on a fix now.

EDIT: It should now be fixed, please try version 1.2!

Thanks, will try on the weekend and report back.

Great, works now :-).

And nice that even kind of "style/feel" description is added.

But two requests both dealing with the chord progressions. The first is the important one:

- there should be and option to add you own progression. Of course it would be the easiest if you have a "manual" option in the list and could just type in the numbers you want. But I could live with any other option as long as its possible. Background: my test scale is still lydian. So I was looking for some progressions that fits and realized that they are simply not in the list. Of course the other way would be to expand the list but that would make it clumsy and you could never put evry possible wish into it.

- the second is more dedicated to userfriendlyness not "functional" directly but as the most used spelling for relative chord progression are roman numerals (so "I" instead of 1) and you even mentioned it in your manual it would be much easier instead of needing to transcribe.

Still to early for comparision but under the hood there are lots of options, first results are very promising and I see lots of develloping potential while still keeping it simple in use. The manual helps a lot and is absolutley sufficient this way.

KodingNightsDeveloper3 years ago (1 edit)

Hi. I am glad it works!

So to your suggestions:

I thought about using roman numerals but decided against it as I want the program to be usable by people not too familiar with music theory and notation. Also, If I went from arabic to roman numerals they would change when you switched from major to minor for example. (IV would be iv). Also, if I went that route, I should really add notation for dimished as well, and it would quickly become confusing.

Your other suggestion about being able to use your own progressions are actually exactly what I am working on now for the next release. I am also working on giving the user more direct influence on the different parts of the music, for example, if you find a drum pattern or bass line you like, you should be able to keep that and randomize the rest.

Great :-). Seems really under heavy develloping :-).

Changed the title cause I think more questions/requests to follow :-)

Hope this one wont be to difficult:

- please add the instrument name to the tracks in the midi file. I just imported my first file in my daw and now I have 20 tracks each only with the file name and can start to puzzle wich instrument might be hidden in each track.....

Noted! When I import the midi into my DAW of choice (FL Studio) it actually shows the instrument names on the tracks. So I will have to investigate why this is not the case for you. Which DAW are you using?

Mixcraft 9 Pro. I could try in Mulab 8 if that might help.

In Mulab it only shows "sequence" and Number so no instrument either while in Mixcraft pro it shows only name of the song.

Just out of curiosity, do you get the track names when you import? I.e. "melody", "counterMelody" etc? Or nothing at all?

Karl Heinz3 years ago (1 edit)

No, in Mixcraft its only the track name "Spiteful Hate in G LYDIAN (60bpm) [7659596129254323459] [jazzy]" (so its the same on evry imported track, nothing else, no number). In Mulab it only says "sequence 1", "sequence 2" and so on.

That is unfortunate. The thing is, the tracks are named, but it seems like your DAW maybe does not read the name properly. Have you tried importing MIDI from other sources? Is that any different?

Karl Heinz3 years ago (2 edits)

Then it must be both daw that could not read the name properly.

I have just made some quick test in my usual test daw environment mulab and its definitely not on that side. I imported files from cgmusic (dont know if you know, one of the best out there, from a game develloper to who sadly does not find time to devellop further), all with track name (melody, drum.....).

Then I add a screen from a midi editor software I sometimes use for your track, "untitled", this works really good on different midi files, can im-/export different formats.....:

EDIT: Just found out something interesting maybe that could help to solve the problem, it seems that the midi editor HAS the info, but not on the track but on the CHANNEL:

That makes sense, I add the name to the channel. I can add the name to the tracks as well.

Thought I should just inform you that this has been fixed in version 1.4 out soon.

Great, that will make testing much easier :-)

Next one:

- velocity (setting randomn amount from/to would be sufficient, maybe categorized by instrument category background/lead/rhythmn, in the playback I already realized that the pad is much to loud)

That is a good suggestion, and was actually a feature before. I guess also some randomization of note start/duration would make the music sound more natural. Both are quick fixes and can be expected on the next release.

:-))))))

V1.3 out now

Wow, that was quick and so many requests added, update lists seems nearly unbelievable for such a short time, expert settings looks great in the screen, do you ever sleep :-).

Will try this out as soon as possible (to late fo tonight) and report back.

Feature requesters and testers do half the work. :-)

I am afraid the track naming still does not work for me and none of my daw reads the channel info:

I even tried the *.mid.xml but none of my daw could read xml it seems. If at least the track/channel Number was in the track name I could get the info from the text file but its still all only the file name, no number, no instrument, nothing:

That is bad news. I will try to investigate further and try to figure out why this does now work. I bet it's a simple solution that I have just overlooked.

It should be "simply" bringing the channel info to the tracks. I tried a bit today and renamed the "untitled" track names in the midi editor after the names of the channel info. Started with the first ones, saved and now it works as you can see in the picture:

It works in my other daw too, so it is really that your app has to output the channel info instead of whatever in the track name to make it work.

Of course this could be kind of workaround, but as the strength of the app is to put out lots of different tracks to compare IN the daw could not be a solution. But it helps for some more testing.

The first good news: velocity randomization works :-)

KodingNightsDeveloper3 years ago (1 edit)

Working on it! EDIT: Fixed in 1.4!

Some more thoughts on a first test with one of the generated midi tracks after renaming:

- there is an absolute unlogical out of beat pause at the beginning which I have to cut (in this case 1 and a half beat ???) on all tracks. Does not make any sense, if it meant to be an intro when there is no track playing. My song tempo is exactly 60 like in the song generated so that could not cause the problem.

- empty midi tracks should not be expported that just confuses, maybe there is a way to avoid/filter this before the export/save (if there are no notes, dont export or something like that)

- the main problem for me: there are complete empty parts on all tracks just in the the song at different positions (around 8 bars long, so I would assume whole songparts). I would think this is a bug cause if all the parts I have chosen in the song structure (verse-chorus-bridge-solo in this case) gets generated there could not be these completely empty parts at different positions of the song.

Summary: I think there needs to be a logical "filter" before the export OR more control/visualisation of the generated track before the export to avoid such problems. In the moment it is simply not really a "song" that gets exported but parts with pauses more or less logical arranged. Or if its a bug just needs to be fixed and then see what happens if its fixed. And maybe simplification would help at some point (a simple chord track with the chord progression going on on ONE track, not separated).

What I like is the general idea of the song generated, the AI behind it seem to be capable, in general the generated results are really musical and useful.

Filtering is a good idea. Split between song and chorus etc is also a good idea. Putting it the todo list.

I will remove the start pause.

The chord progressions are on their own tracks already?

No, at least I did not recognize thats why I ask for a simple chord track that represents the chord progression.

The only tracks with chords on it are the "epiano" and "harmonica", but they dont run threw.

Oh so you want the chord to play through the entirety of the song? I guess I could add that as an option but I think the resulting song will suffer.

Yes, I agree, sorry, I should have explained :-).

The chord track is only to be able to use some other generative tools, sequencers, arps and so on on it to make them easiely play in tune with the song from mugen. Or to "recognize" the chordprogression on that track.

Of course it would be bothering to let it play all the time :-)

KodingNightsDeveloper3 years ago (1 edit)

But if the track is there it will be played :-)

I see what you want and why you want it but that particular use case is a little bit outside the scope of the program at the moment.

However, I could add another 'creator' mode where things like that could be done, where the focus is not so much creating songs to listen to outright, but rather to create building blocks for a DAW do to speak.

That would be absolutely great :-).

Of course not evrything could be done at once :-)

Some more problems, I have attached the tracks in my daw and then the settings in case there might be something wrong which I doubt (I think there are some important bugs). Problems:

- I have chosen "pad" but the pad tracks are empty (I have deleted before making the screen so not to be seen but they are empty)

- whats more severe and can be seen in the screen: a lot of tracks dont follow the chord progression but simply stay on ONE note threw all the song, that does not make any sense at all

KodingNightsDeveloper3 years ago (2 edits)

You have enabled the pad tracks. That's what it does. It's for those long playing roots/thirds/tops. Useful for atmos and arpeggios.

So the pad tracks play always the SAME ONE note no matter what chordprogression is on ?

A little strange for me. And in the actual track thats shown on the picture there is NO pad track (or there are no notes on it, so I deleted) although I have activated it.

But the problem with only one note is on the slap bass, fx, all string ensemble tracks and so on......I can add a picture in detail but I can assure you its always the one note not changing on all these tracks.

Pad tracks are not used for every kind of song. Randomized silence will also play a role.

Customization in the DAW is expected, keep what you want and delete the rest.

Maybe I did not really get what "pad" meants for you in this context. For me "pad" is associated with the soundcategory "pad". So long notes, often part of chords or chords, which build the background and emotion of a song but of course follow the chordprogression ? So what does "pad" if clicked mean and do in mugen ?

I call that chord separation. If you select that each note of the chord will be put on its own track additionally, following the chord progression.

O.k., will have to try that out additionally and see whats the difference.

I think I might better sum up my experiences so far to not get missunderstood as nagging round.

And I really wonder that no one else has joined in here so far ?

This is really a great tool (definitely the most capable around here in the "game scene") !!!!

The engine that drives all this is - in my opinion - marvellous and produces musical and really interesting and instantly useable results.

Of course these are "raw" drafts that had to be customized in a daw.

And maybe I should admit that I dont come out of the games scene but from a musical interest in anything generative with a main emphasis on chill, ambient and so on kind of stuff (which might not be the most needed musical styles for games :-) ).

My intention for this question is simply that - from my point of view - this IS really marvellous but could go - if intended of course - MUCH further with maybe (again, only from a user point of view, not from the develloper view which is totally different, especially when it comes to what is easy to change and what is simply NOT possible :-) ) not so much needed to be adjusted to go much further in useability for LOTS of imaginable applications.

And could stand VERY well outside the games scene in the environment of generative music apps in general. I would really love to post this into some music forums but simply have to understand where it is and where it might go.

Thats why I am asking these - maybe - nagging question. Really hope thats fine for you.

I love the constructive criticism so please continue. It is in no means construed as nagging.

I have not advertised the program much yet, I want to iron out most of the wrinkles first.

I would love it if you would write about the program, and I am also going to continue development so it can be usable in other contexts than just games music - that was actually the intention all along.

Then I am reassured, was not sure about it :-).

While looking threw the manual again (and waiting on the new version :-) ) I thought about something that might be well worth thinking of for a version 2 maybe.

I realized that you had already "categorized" for yourself some styles in case of tempo. I wonder how much effort it would be to go further with this categorisation and add some typical style based scales/modes, chord progressions and other settings possible in the app already ?

And then offer a "simple" style selection as starting point. That would open the app up even for people who had nearly no music knowledge at all.

And as far as I know there are not many apps out there offering both ways: simply randomn and let yourself surprise what comes up (which is the center of the app now) AND to get started with a dedicated style in mind. It would even open up the app for some style based expansions later on.

Strangely that idea came to my mind while I was thinking about a little christmas song for my daughter as surprise (she is into christmas, I am the grinch :-) ) and then I woundered: what would be typical for a christmas song ? As my musical knowledge is very limited all that questions came to my mind: typical tempo, scale, progression, melody.....?

KodingNightsDeveloper2 years ago

Yes I have thought about that. It could be solved as loading/saving of profiles.

Most of the information can be found on Google of course but it would be nice to be able to just switch between profiles to get the style settings you want.

"Profiles" would be a nice solution :-)

Have not realized that the new version is already up :-).

Thought there would be an automatic info from itch.io but it was not:

- file import is working now as it should, great :-)

- gap at the beginning is fixed

- gaps in the track seem to be fixed

- not using the "pad" function (and maybe some other fixes) makes the exported track much more slim and useable (as I did not use the drums I got 6 tracks now in the exported file, much easier to handle)

Have to look for the other improvements, new look is much better and clearer definitely.

KodingNightsDeveloper2 years ago

Working on 1.5 now: Part preview/solo and export. Also the melody generator is getting a revamp.

Great :-).

Part export was the thing I was just thinking about cause with the different tracks and melodies fading/leading into a new part its sometimes not that easy to identify where a part really ends and the next starts, so this would be really helpful.

One more request explained by this missing bass part (the only one, so the bass parts is really completely missing):

This missing acoustic bass part in the middle of the song really makes no sense no matter in which style/context, espcecially as there is nothing to take over that part (for example if there would be another bass, a cello whatever) so it would be great if you could add a button on the expert page of the instrument (where dynamic, merge and so on is) to allow silent parts or alternatively simply play threw the whole song ("always playing").

Maybe if you add parts this could be part specific then if possible (so it might make sense to make the bass silence for a bridge part with some pads and long notes staying).

KodingNightsDeveloper2 years ago (2 edits)

Silence part % might silence the bass. Also for some song types it may make sense to silence the bass for some sections (a breakdown or the start of a buildup for example)

The option to select which instruments play which sections of the song is on the todo list.