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A jam submission

Fangs in the ShadowsView project page

Submitted by suryanaren (@solerides) — 1 minute, 25 seconds before the deadline
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Play book

Fangs in the Shadows's itch.io page

Results

CriteriaRankScore*Raw Score
Theme Relevance#14.0004.000
Overall#53.5193.519
Clarity#63.5563.556
Potential playability#113.0003.000

Ranked from 9 ratings. Score is adjusted from raw score by the median number of ratings per game in the jam.

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Comments

Submitted

I'm super unfamiliar with limitations surrounding AI mechanics, so I'll just be commenting on the game design itself, assuming the AI works flawlessly.

I REALLY like your game idea. I'm a huge fan of TTRPGs, and this gives off the exact vibe I've been wanting from a TTRPG turned video game for ages now. I think you've given quite a lot of thought to the narrative and setting elements and have a lot of really good content to work with. That being said, I'm imagining this game from the position of someone with no AI experience. I think you could do a good job using only scripted events and variations of them, and even then, I think this would fall into its own social-strategy roleplaying game genre. some more detail would be needed in your GDD before usage, like menus. While you told the concept of the different actions, how they will actually function is also critical information to have. Very good idea overall. 

Developer

Thanks a lot! I’m glad you liked the concept. I agree that there needs to be a lot more detail of how the systems work to create interesting situations, I might work on that in the near future.

I also assumed the AI works flawlessly :). Truth be told, I’m not sure it’s possible yet with today’s technology, but given the pace of AI development the tools might be available within a year or so. You never know!

Submitted

On reading your GDD I'll preface my comment saying I understand if time was a significant constraint; it was one for me too.

Your game does have elements of social deduction in combination with responsive/semi-intelligent dialogue. To make a truly "AI-powered" dialogue system may take much more work than using certain pre-defined values and "line pools" the characters can select from to add just enough variety through a game loop without being overbearing to manage/train.

The game makes me think of a combination of the Salem Witch Trials online game with (oddly enough) dating sim-esque dialog interaction and status adjustment features. I made a similar genre/game comparison or association in my doc so I can respect the parallels between those games and yours. However, much like how I tried to present mine perhaps it's not wholly a new genre.

The length of the gameplay loop is intriguing to note. It reminds me of an expected gameplay session time of most Turn-Based/RTS hybrid games like Total War. 

The social events you have planned in your game system gives it good variety potential and gives many factors to consider. Though in that depending on how gameplay is or isn't tutorialized/introduced players may wander into it confused when they're getting backstabbed by the Duke of Doughnuts after they called him a "fat man" on the first night.

All this to say, I think this game has promise as a standalone title and good inspiration behind it! With a little more visual reference and gameplay loop walkthrough it can shape up to be something awesome!

Developer(+1)

Yeah, I should have described how the AI would work in more detail I think - right now it’s just assumed to work and not very convincingly playable.

5-7 hours isn’t a single session length, but the campaign length - essentially you could say you finished the game after doing one campaign, but you always have the option for replayability with new characters and objectives, and increased difficulty. I think with the variable LLM-powered dialogue, replayability would be a major draw for the game.

Yeah, sad lack of diagrams or good references - perhaps next time I’ll manage time better!

Love the part about the Duke of Doughnuts, and yeah - sometimes I think I’d expect players to go ‘wtf’ over these random events, as long as they can sometimes feel smart themselves too by outwitting others.

Submitted (1 edit) (+1)

So I'm filing this under "Brilliant if it works, but I have serious doubts whether it would work." Not because I doubt your design chops at all--it's just fundamentally I'm not sure either the human players or the algorithms will behave the way the concept requires.

My personal observation is that, once you take the human element out of a social game, what you have is no longer a social game, but a strategy game, more like, eg, Crusader Kings. First because it's no longer symmetrical--the computer doesn't know it's playing a game and won't be gaming the player the way the player is gaming it. And second because, even if the gameplay is truly identical, players will act differently if they know it's not another human. (For example, players will test the algorithm and try to find stock phrases that always yield a favorable response, something that's inherently not possible with humans.)

That said, all that is just my skepticism, and by all means, prove me wrong and I will happily eat crow, because it is a very cool idea. I like your setting and a lot of the details of the concept, like making the interface resemble a tabletop game. And it definitely rises to Willem's challenge, because if it works, it'll definitely be a whole new thing that many other games are guaranteed to copy.

Developer(+1)

Thanks for the high praise and for taking the time to go through it!

I agree that it’s a pretty outlandish design, and the technology for it technically doesn’t even exist yet - but I was excited by the challenge.

I think you’d definitely expect AI to do some unexpected and non-human things, and humans to find ways to exploit the system for their own benefit. The game doesn’t pretend to be fair, and players should enjoy themselves trying to find ways to manipulate the AI, even if it ends up being a little metagamey at times.

Nevertheless, as technology improves it might become feasible sooner rather than later. And you also need good human technical writers to define interesting characters with compelling voices, because an AI would otherwise make everyone sound generic and make the same kinds of choices.

I feel like the strategy section and systems need a lot of work, right now they are still a little flimsy and it’s noticeable. But glad you found it interesting. Might take some time to work on it some more when I have the time.

Submitted(+1)

Yeah, if you're open to players getting metagamey, then this would probably work well--the impression that I got from the GDD was that you were hoping this would still work like an Among Us-style social game, and that's what I don't think would happen. I'd be very interested to see what players would do--player behavior might well surprise both of us!

Submitted

I also liked the write up about how it's genre defining, though it's a little like cheating by telling us how it's a new genre. :)

I also wanted more -- somehow this felt incomplete, though I'm not sure why.

I'm curious about the AI usage. How will you program the character AIs? Would each have unique aspects or all the same algorithm?

Developer

Thanks for giving it a read! And yes, I did have a lot more content to add, but had to cut it down due to bad time management. Primarily stuff about how the basic mechanics could actually be used strategically, but when I wrote it out it wasn’t making design sense yet, and needed some more rigourous thought.

About the genre, the reader is free to come to their own conclusions about whether it’s a new genre or not. I found that there were very few single-player negotiation games, and the best candidate I found (GNOSIA) didn’t make use of new tech like language AI. I just gave the genre a fancy name so that I can try to file a ridiculous patent for it later like how Shadows of Mordor did with the Nemesis system XD.

About the technical aspects of the AI - right now the technology is heading in that direction, but a proper plugin that you can use to make an AI-powered commercial game like this one doesn’t exist yet. ChatGPT’s API has a bunch of limitations and restrictions - for example there’s a character limit on context, and content filters that will prevent your NPCs from talking about anything related to death or violence or politically incorrect things. Plus it’s hella expensive for each prompt.

But in theory with a game AI plugin, you would give each character a standard description, motives, etc as context - then feed in the player reply and formulate an appropriate response. Then give the AI a limited list of actions that its character can do in the game, and ask it to pick the most appropriate one.

Submitted

I also liked the write up about how it's genre defining, though it's a little like cheating by telling us how it's a new genre. :)

I also wanted more -- somehow this felt incomplete, though I'm not sure why.

I'm curious about the AI usage. How will you program the character AIs? Would each have unique aspects or all the same algorithm?

Submitted

There are a bunch of submissions and I wanted to give feedback to everyone, so I'm going to list some strengths and weaknesses that I perceive from the GDD's in this challenge (take with a grain of salt, I recognize the challenge this jam theme + time limitations, especially during a holiday weekend).

Strengths: I appreciate your section about why this game would qualify as genre-defining, and I appreciate the thought that went into creating a social deception/deduction game that can be enjoyed alone (although comparing to Among Us is a little misleading, its main focus is social deduction). 

Weaknesses: I would also like to see more technical descriptions behind how your status systems work, and how they impact other systems. While there are fairly simple mechanics in this game, I feel like systems interactions are much more complex than currently addressed, so I can't immediately imagine how these will work, some of them seem incredibly difficult to implement.

Overall: if you manage to make this game work, I will play the hell out of it.

Developer(+1)

Totally agree with your feedback! I had some more ideas for detailing the systems and systemic interaction, but the idea was probably too high in scope for a 2-day jam so I submitted whatever I could. As I was writing I definitely realized that some of the systems seem impossible to actually implement with existing technology though :’)

Thanks a lot for taking the time to go through it and for the rating!