Post by ChickenHat in Fear & Hunger comments

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Hey there!

I played your game on a friend recommendation. I am leaving this review because Fear and Hunger has one of the best moody atmospheres I've seen in a game, and I only want to see this game grow and improve. You're doing a great job so far both with this game and listening to your community.

I do appreciate the oppressive atmosphere of the game, and sometimes the coin toss can add a bit of intensity to places where life and death is at stake.

However, some of the placement of the rng and what the game is trying to do feels at odds with each other.

>>But as long as you learn from your mistakes, you can quickly find yourself at the deeper levels of the dungeon.

Where this vision starts to break down is that the game doesn't grant you a margin of error that will let you learn from your mistakes. You could know to, through trial and error, avoid all the guards, rub infected wounds with green herbs, cut off dark priest arms, etc etc. But due to the lack of a reliable save system, you could make a tiny error during a battle, or miss a single attack, or lose a coin flip and you have to start the game over again. Scripted events, intro, and all.

You could also get a status effect that's slowly killing your character. You failed the coin tosses previously to find the book on how to craft the item needed to cure your character. Your character dies slowly and there's no recovering from it short of scrambling to find a walkthrough.

Another situation I ran into was getting the crow mauler 4 times in a row trying to save on the bed, just so I didn't have to create my character and go through all of the scripted scenarios over and over again. Another situation was hacking off all of a guards limbs only for his tackle attack to have the same damage as his normal attacks. (How did cutting off the limbs increase my survivability here?)

Either the game wants me to use trial and error and I am allowed to recover and learn from my mistakes, or the game has the RNG act as a point of tension but a reliable enough save system that allows you to quickly get back on your feet. If you have both, the atmosphere cracks and the game begins to feel like a chore. You're discouraged from experimenting and being creative because one unlucky turn can spell doom.

Personally I'm fine with the one-hit kills, but I think this game desperately needs a reliable save system (start off the game with one free book of enlightenment? No crow mauler in Basement 3?) and for players to be able to craft without rng generated recipe books. This way your knowledge of the game will always allow you to prepare for encounters instead of being at the mercy of finding a book. With the above in mind, being able to miss attacks doesn't help either. I can understand a knight not being able to reach a guard's head but if every turn matters then why have me lose turns?

Thank you for the effort you are putting into the game, and I hope that this review helps the game improve. : )

Mask5 years ago

To be quite honest, you should not have to flip a coin the first time you use the bed. Just like the first time you use the Rabbit cult and etc..

Hey Chicken. Many people are very concerned about the RNG you mentioned, and saving balance in the game. There is a community patch that was made to address and try to improve these issues, reducing miss chance, and rebalancing some of the mechanics (making it so DEF reduces damage in the formulas, for example).

It also includes a book of unlimited saving for now, while the mod (and the game, in some ways) is in a debugging state.

Here's the link, if you'd like to give it a look. I hope the official game starts to consider these points of balance: https://mask.itch.io/fear-hunger-rebalance

orange~5 years ago

Hey thanks for the review! Really appreciate it! I just answered to mostly the same points in the last reply, so I don't want to write the same exact reply again. But it's no coincidence that these same issues rise up when talking about the game :D So yeah, I'm hearing the feedback for sure!

To be honest I was not expecting RNG to be this big of an issue, because just the same as you might not get some vital items on your playthrough and end up dying because of that - the next run you might get some of the strongest equipment right at the start and come up with new strategies to tackle the dangers. I personally find it pretty interesting and it creates a lot of replay value, but clearly it doesn't please everyone.

The current build of the game already manipulates the outcome of the RNG a little. For example, if you are bleeding and your HP is low, the game is more likely to give you Cloths to patch yourself up. I'm further working on that, so hopefully I'll be able to hit a good balance in the future.

Mask5 years ago

How much do you play the game these days, Orange? There isn't really any strongest equipment you can get, by RNG.

You can get plate mail, if you're lucky, but it only reduces damage from slashing attacks, so that little to no difference to a run. You might get lucky and find a couple more healing vials... but those are unlikely to save you from a bad run. I know from certain chests like Nosramus' one, you can get a Sorcerer's Stone... but that just reduces your alcohol and opium intake.

The only equipment RNG could help you to get that'd make much difference, is books... and even those aren't a big help.

You could find an Ancient book, but that's as likely to kill you as help you, and the spell you get is random. Only useful right after a save game, so you can save-scum it... but many players die before they can save. If you do save-scum it, you can get something like Dark Orb, and greatly reduce the difficulty. So that is one option after a hundred play-throughs till you get lucky, or just through save-scumming a hundred times.
The alchemist books are useful, but more use for a successful long-term run rather than helping you survive short-term, however.
Skill books are probably the most useful, but even then some skills are far more useful than others.
The only books that can really make a reliable difference to your run, are Books of Enlightenment.

If we compare this to other roguelikes like Enter the Gungeon or Binding of Isaac, there is a good possibility of getting some truly powerful, so that even an unskilled player has a shot at progressing deep into the game.

With Fear & Hunger, honestly... there is loads more negative RNG in it, almost no RNG is positive in the game. And the thing is... the two games I mentioned are skill based, even with bad RNG you can get through with pure skill. In Fear & Hunger, it's a turn based RPG, even playing totally optimally you can die and lose.

I encourage you to work on the balance more. Currently, the only resource management I see in the game is getting enough cloths to treat all the bleeding that occurs, or being lucky enough to find the crafting book that teaches you how to rip up clothing to get more cloths (which, clearly, you should have already known how to do).

orange~5 years ago

Mask, here are just few really useful things you can get from the first levels of the dungeon randomly: explosive vials, bear traps, iron arrows, soul stones, curatives to most status ailments, arms guards and empty scroll. Some of these items can have big impact on how you approach the game. Among those items especially -- Soul stones = almost any skill in the game and potentially more poweful weapons. and Empty scroll = any item or skill in the game of your choosing.

Mask5 years ago

Correct me if I'm wrong, iron arrows are only useful to the Outlander? Otherwise, you need a bow, a skillbook that teaches you to use them outside of combat, two arms(?), and iron arrows? The iron arrows can help the Outlander, they're nice to find, but I fail to see how the RNG is helping much in this case.

Something more to point out, is you search probably three hundred containers over a play-through. This actually makes for less RNG in relation to loot, it should balance it out so you always get roughly the same haul. In the games mentioned, they tended to have rather few treasure rooms, which could hold amazing buffs that stack together, or just reasonable ones. This made for a greater sense of RNG, positive RNG.

Beartraps are cool, not debating that. But, is that what you meant by being able to find the best equipment at the start? A couple of bear-traps? Those are one-use items, and can't be used against most of the bosses in the game. Their best use is just holding off Crow Mauler so you can get past him. Though, running away after you enter combat works pretty well, too, so I'm not sure they're even that much help.

Explosive vials are pretty rare in the early game, if you find one you can use it to speed-run pretty effectively. Extras are nice, as they do work to make most fights a lot easier. So, I agree... if you find a dozen explosive vials at the start, the game will be a lot easier.

Don't you think that is a pretty specific scenario of RNG helping? In the examples I gave, Binding of Isaac and Enter the Gungeon, there are a lot of item combos you can find that make you pretty powerful, in a variety of ways.

orange~5 years ago (1 edit)

Iron arrows can be used by everyone without skills. And again Empty scroll is all items and skills in the game. There are bunch of items that help you if you know how to maximize their use. But just like iron arrows can become huge help with correct layout, empty scroll is overpowered to the point of almost breaking the game with enough knowledge.

I don't really know what you are expecting, because those same items are pretty good in endgame as well. If you want some game breaking items, this is really not the kind of game, because there are no such items even in the end.

Mask5 years ago

Thanks for correcting me. If the main character has a bow equipped, they can use the arrows, and those are pretty useful (if you don't lose an arm...). So, if you get lucky and find a bow, then when you find iron arrows that will be nice buff. I'd say that's a fine element of positive RNG.

Empty scrolls are really nice.... You can get a Sergal Spear or a Book of Enlightenment, or learn any spell. But... that's NOT RNG, is it? It's like cheat codes, if you know the codes, you can get three Sergal Spears with three scrolls. So, it is random a to whether you get a scroll, and if you know how to use it you can get some very epic stuff.
But... that's basically a way for people who use walkthroughs or have won the game to have an easy time beating it the second time, not really RNG of the style of other rogue-likes, like Binding of Isaac. You yourself have just said they're potentially game-breaking. If you wanted to balance that, you could make it so that really powerful items can only be asked for once, and that it's related to your affinity with the associated god. There are a lot of easy fixes, if you take some time to balance and fix.

What everyone expects is a balanced game and a bug-free experience. Saying, "Well, there's RNG, that makes it OK," doesn't excuse bugs, it doesn't excuse stuff like a high miss rate everyone complains about (particularly youtubers). These problems persist through all playthroughs, and having to pray that you don't miss the enemy twice in a row and don't run into a game-breaking bug isn't RNG design, that's relying on God to fix the game.

orange~5 years ago (1 edit)

Oh no of course not! I never meant to say that RNG somehow makes bugs and balance flaws okay. This topic was about RNG and that's why I was talking about that.

If you had looked around this itchio page a little and its comments section, you might have noticed that I've said numerous times that bugs and balance are being worked on as we speak. I don't want to give a picture that these things are being neglected, because that certainly isn't the case. I'm working 8 hours/day with this game still even after its release.

Mask5 years ago

Didn't you see my comment? Sometimes, I don't get a notification when someone replies to me, so it may've happened to you. I asked you why updates are hard to make. There are people playing the game, right now, on youtube, showcasing horrible game-breaking bugs. So, I asked you why it is that updates are "so cumbersome," as you called them. Not all changes would be save-game compatible, sure, but an amount of the bug fixing should be, and it'd be easy to test for that. From what I know of RPG Maker MV and itch, I can't see how it would be cumbersome.

It's no good releasing the game in an unfinished state, then saying you're working hard to finish it after releasing it. People are very sick of early-access games these days, and Steam reviews tend to be cynical. A lot of developers promise to finish/fix their games, and never get around to it, so it will read as BS to the Steam community. Since you said you don't know anything about Steam ("I didn't know Steam was such a big deal"), I figured I should tell you.

To repeat myself, bug fixes should be launched as soon as possible, both so that people get a good impression of the game and its development, and so that you can see if new bugs are introduced. It also lets you turn your attention to other bugs that crop up.

orange~5 years ago (2 edits)

Oh right, I actually answered to your comment too when I replied to the parent post, that's why you probably didn't get a notification.

I do think making updates is a bit clumsy on itchio and gamejolt because people have to visit the site every time to download them separately. There is no way to let people know of these possible updates, unless they follow the game on some platform. The good news are that Steam makes auto-updates possible. So I'm happy to tell that in future even smaller updates are a lot more likely because of the ease in both making the update and distributing it to the player base. yay!

No need to repeat yourself. We have had these same discussions many times already and it's pretty clear we just disagree on this matter. No biggie.

...Actually, no, we don't disagree. Because I agree that bugs and balance need fixing, but I just don't see the doom and gloom scenario.

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CaseySmith5 years ago (1 edit)

I think it's experience/trial error, after playing it a bunch of times, I can get through most places no matter the RNG items. And I know what and when I can face any enemies then act accordingly (Avoid, run or fire a bunch of arrows at it).

Though I couldn't of beat it just now on hard mode without good RNG and lots of empty scrolls. But still the same applied through most of the game. Even then I think I only bled once or twice in the entire game through at least an arrow trap at the end.

But anyway... For me it's why I love this game - it's grueling and unforgiving, just like the atmosphere.

May be an easy/casual mode for those who aren't masochistic gamers like me? XD With say like 75% chance of getting something without the coin toss mechanic, a chance to get Book of Enlightenment from bookcases, start of the turn choreographed pending insta-kill attacks so people know when to run or guard, 100% Ancient book success etc..

I understand the unforgiving mechanics aren't for everyone, so instead of getting rid of what I feel is the heart and soul, you can just add another mode instead. I can also see another mode making it streamer friendly too - the only way I knew about this game was someone attempting to play it on YouTube.

Mask5 years ago

For veterans of the game, it's pretty easy to speed-run the game, yeah. Even for veterans, the RNG of a 10% miss rate, and some other aspects, don't really improve the game but rather make it feel more tedious. It often leads to having to load back to earlier saves. The items part isn't really an issue, since there are so many item containers that it all balances out to a pretty similar item haul (this does mean less positive RNG for future runs, though).

The Coin Flips aren't really the issue. Most of those can be avoided through strategy. Also, there is a chance of getting books of enlightenment from book cases, it used to be the only way to get them in the early versions.

Scrolls are, admittedly, the truly game-changing item, if you're an expert of the game. If you get three scrolls, you can get three duplicates of Miasma, or better yet three Sergal Spears, and start cutting everything to pieces. They're kind of like cheat-code items, and while they certainly help, they might even help too much.

ChickenHat5 years ago

Thank you for the quick reply orange!

I did notice the small tip in the rng. Early on you can get useful items like bear traps, small keys, and explosive vials. However, if you've already rummaged through most of the crates you have access to, then what happens is that you run into a situation where you are not given the means to dig yourself out of an unlucky battle.

Having random items in each barrel is a lot of fun! RNG for finding loot makes sense, but I think the player needs a way to produce, say, worm juice if you had a bad run in with a maneba. I love the variety that the rng provides, and think the harshness is a good part of the atmosphere, but if a guard messes me up I should have the tools to do better next time, you know?

The later parts of the game do also get a little bit better as by this point you have a full party equipped with more than basic weaponry and a horde of accumulated stuff. Bosses also get a little better here as there's a definite "right" answer to beating them. (No spoilers)

You've probably gotten these points from a billion different angles though so for now how you tweak the game is up to you. Keep going and thank you!

Also with regards to ending A, does only the final phase of the boss have an OHKO attack?! Woof.