Post by JK5000 in Please stop "Rate for Rate"-posts

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It has nothing to do with the name. The issue is very basic, and comes from a misunderstanding of what a game jam is. Game jam's is NOT about ME, but about US. 'Rate for rate'-post is all about getting people to play MY game, and not about playing or rating other peoples games. I think often we forget the community aspect for a game JAM, and instead we see it as a place to self promote what we are doing.

The sad part of this is that the best part of the game jams is not making the games, but it is share them with others, and seeing what others has done.

MG With A Smile1 year ago(+1)

Apparently you see only 1/2 of the idea of jams.

1) yeah - community is huge part and I thing me, with playing and rating 40+- games and giving feedback on most of those is giving to the community the most I possibly can with my free time...

2) The second part is learning how to gamedev. I always got so little feedback and plays I never learned what I did wrong. Now I have ton of feedback, plus I played games from active members of the comunity. I DONT SEE THE ISUE.

And I quote you "..it is share them with others, and seeing what others has done. " This is literally what the RATE-FOR-RATE posts DO >"I am sharing mine and play yours", You are contradicting yourself.

If you dont like it, write to Itch.io support so the change the system, but with how things are curently, it is nessesery for many to get ANY plays, because NOONE is using the "least played" filter...

And one more thing... I will play your game to prove that posting on the community tab will get you places you can't get otherwise.

JK50001 year ago

I am sorry that it is really difficult to understand my point. And I do understand the idea of the game jam. The second part do also dement that people plays their game to get feedback. And I do agree it happens to some degree, and that is great, but the 'rate for rate'-posts sending most intention to the few there is tanking part of them. And you can say we all should do this, but this would not help no one.

"..it is share them with others, and seeing what others has done. " is not a contradicting myself because, because many of those posts actorly only plays and rate a very few of the games that is on those posts, and therefor they mostly a way to get attention to their own games.

In general 'Rate for rate' should just be something we do, not something we shall be begging for happening in 'Rate for rate'-posts.

And you are of cause welcome to play my game, and I also hope you will play, rate and give feedback to games that really needs it.

Sewex1 year ago

So you're asking to do the same Rate to Rate without using specific posts...? So what's the difference in using them then. And I don't see that you're doing a lot of game grading, bruh
Also it's work days, do you have time to look for games?

JK50001 year ago (1 edit)

The difference is that it is only for the few taking part of those kind of kind of posts. The issue is also that a lot people writing this kind of post don't do the the for 'rate for rate' they just doing it to get people to play their games.

Ategon1 year ago (2 edits) (+1)

The majority of the people doing the threads have been following it. If there is a couple that aren't they're the exception. Some people take a bit to get around to the other games or dont announce that they have given feedback in the thread and instead just give it on the page

Imo I see the rate for rates and the behavior you want of people possibly rating others who rated them as pretty much the same. Theres just a tradeoff with the extra things that come with it along with that. Rate for rates main downside is that not everyone does them yes but on the other hand with the people rating others that rated them, that also is rare even in jams where rate for rates arent common so the same overall problem arises just in a different form. A lot of people dont sort random and play a random game to then give feedback on because the majority of the time its not given back and then they cant get ranked in the jam as they wasted all their time. The only reliable sort where its the case of being able to get feedback back reliably is sorting by most karma, popular or by the highest rated as those games tend to be active in the community but even then thats still funneling the votes into a small subset of games.

Rate for rates is a way for people who may otherwise not be seen to show their game to some people and collect some feedback while also returning the same thing in kind. Sure if somebody abuses this and rate for rates to get 100 votes that may be an issue but again its a small subset of those are actually doing the rate for rates, its just more noticeable as you see them in top rated and you are seeking them out (confirmation bias).

I agree in an ideal world this should not be the case but its not an ideal world and mechanics exist in itch that people use

JK50001 year ago

The question is why do we want a system where we should beg for ratings. Okay we can say that is the way world works, or we can try to do something about it.

You give a part the answer yourself, because it is been used a lot to gain a lot attention, and you will see games getting more then 80-90 ratings because of this system. And this is a lot in game jam where we this time only is 753 games. The issue here is not only the once making the posts, but also people continually replaying to all of them.

Ategon1 year ago (1 edit) (+1)

Again as I said thats a subset of the people getting rates, and sometimes thats not even how they got most of their rates. The bigger offender is the snowball effect that occurs in the games that reach the top of the top rated sort early on.

Also dont quite get what you mean by the last point as it could be two things. If its that the people replying dont actually play the games then thats why you make it so that they must play the game before you give feedback back with them giving feedback on the game page itself as being confirmation that they actually played it. If its that it buries everything else in the forums due to the constant activity then the solution isnt to stop it but to instead have a separate category. A thing a group does in the GMTK jam is has an organized rate swap where you get given 5 games every day from people who entered to rate and give feedback on. This helps remove that from the forums while still having it as an option for people to get noticed (with the 5 a day preventing abuse)

JK50001 year ago

Okay, what often happens is that people write a 'rate for rate'-posts, do usually play a few the first game on the list. This do some people knows, and they are therefor really fast to come with replies to those posts, and by doing this they at least tries to get a lot people to play their games. And I can see that it seem to be working pretty well. But are you number 7 or 8 to come with a replay to the post, then chance is much smaller that they are playing your games.

But this not my main issue, but I don't want a system where people shall beg for ratings/feedback. You are welcome to think it's the way it just is, but I have been in many game jams where this is not an issue. It all about making a culture where everybody understand what a game jam is about, and it should never be about begging for ratings.

Ategon1 year ago (1 edit) (+1)

I mean I don't believe its begging. Begging would be spamming please play my game in every games comment section. Both parties are giving each other feedback on what to improve. Sure you can make the argument its begging because its forcing them to rate your game but the person who made the post has made the decision that they would be rating games and giving feedback and the person replying has as well. Its the same as if both people had the mind set of I will play all games from people who comment on my game which a lot of people in the rate for rates have as well. Just this is a way to guarantee the 20 rates. As the moment this is basically the only way to guarantee that for those that dont get lucky with ctr, dont have much time to commit to ratings, or dont get lucky from the games they choose to give feedback on.

As the mechanics in itch.io exist currently there will always be those that are screwed over by the current system even if they give feedback on others (and for those who cant give feedback that well and can only rely on people to use the random sort, it never works out unless they have a great thumbnail)

The way to stop it would instead give some other way for people to get a guaranteed number of ratings. The system in Ludum Dare is miles better than what exists here and theres absolutely 0 rate for rates because of it. In ludum dare the more good feedback to others you give, and the more games you rate, the more your games gets recommended to others with the things you do having reduced effects the more you do it (so that people tend to get 20-30 ratings and not much more unless they're extremely dedicated with giving feedback or get snowballed). This means you have the community aspect of going around and rating + giving feedback on random peoples games and a lot more people use the random sort because theres a lot less possible risks to doing so

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Sewex1 year ago

I would love to do what you wrote about when I have time. But I don't see anything wrong with using the approach as separate posts

MG With A Smile1 year ago(+1)

My last post , I don't want this to take anymore of my time

You:"In general 'Rate for rate' should just be something we do, not something we shall be begging for happening in 'Rate for rate'-posts."

I 100% agree with that statement. I think we are on the same page of "the system is broken, this shouldnt be necessary", but you try to fight and make it right, but I just gave up cause it didnt work and try to float on top of the brokenness. But maily I speek from my POV where when I asked for rate-for-rate I played all the posted games, if others dont do that - than it is a problem.

Just for you I will compile the best/least rated games I played and post it on the cominity tab.

JK50001 year ago

I don't want the game jams only to be for those taking part of 'rate for rate'-posts, and if we don't say or do anything it will never chance. And I totally respect that you will not use more time on this.

Sewex1 year ago

You do realize that grading is often the purpose of coming to gamejam. To get an estimate of your abilities, to test yourself...

How can I tell if I did well or not if I'm not being rated?)

JK50001 year ago

When you take part of a game jam it's important you take a active part of the playing, rating, and giving feedback. When you give feedback there is a link to your game. If you make some great feedback it should motivate them to give feedback back to you. It should never be necessary to be begging for feedback in 'rate for rate'-posts.

Mathieu Schmerber1 year ago(+1)

This JAM being an exception, I've always been making my games and keeping it for me and my friends so to me a JAM is more about enjoying yourself. You should probably already have an idea on how well you did according to your own vision of your work. Like everybody, you probably learnt a lot, maybe there are topics you discovered and that you wish to explore in the future. Maybe you had some time issues as well, how could you better manage your time for the next one, what took the most time, where do you feel that you need to put some extra effort and become better ?

All these questions are what lead me to the current developer I am and my workflow, and I keep asking myself the very same questions even after 7 years of active JAMs and am still often slightly changing my workflow. Of course you could say that I'm not legitimate to say all that since I have one of the most rated games, but since I've never shared my work before, I have a hard time understanding your point fully. On my end I'm playing like minimum 15 games per day and leaving feedbacks as meaningful as possible. Even tho I do not play and rate for this purpose, most of the time these same devs I left feedback for, come back to me and take the time to leave me with some feedbacks. I may be lucky or whatever, but I wish this vision of mine could help you.