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Please stop "Rate for Rate"-posts

A topic by JK5000 created Feb 22, 2023 Views: 920 Replies: 50
Viewing posts 1 to 12
Submitted (1 edit) (+4)(-1)

First of all, this is not a 'rate for rate'-post.

The 'rate for rate'-posts has now become a really big issue. I do understand why you are writing them, but first of all it should not be necessary to write this kind of posts, because 'rating for rating' should just be something that naturally happens when you give a bit of feedback to other games.  The other part of the issue is that it gives way too much intension to those 'rate for rate'-posts games, and this take a way the time and intension from everybody else.

The idea with game jams is NOT that we shall be begging for ratings or feedback, it should be a natural part of game jams that if you plays, rates and give feedback to each other's games, then the same will of cause also happen to your game. But I can clearly see that it's not happening enough right now.

Overall I want this to be a fun game jam for all of us. There is a lot of new game jammers here, and  they shall really not be begging for intension through 'rate for rate'-posts.

Instead of using 'rate for rate'-posts, you should go and find the games in the submission page, and for now mostly play games that has less then 20 ratings. And when you play those games, it should always be a good idea to give some constructive feedback, because then there should also come ratings and feedback back to your game.

Let us all be better game jammers, and let's make this into a better game jam for all of us.

Submitted(+2)

I 100% agree bro, this is my first game jam but i ALWAYS avoid the rate-for-rate posts. I refuse to get a good rate just because i rated some other probably garbage game as they are begging for good rates. This is supposed to be fun, which it is, but every rate-for-rate post drains the fun by 00000.1 percent. It add up.

Submitted(+2)

Yes I agree, that it can get sometimes anoyying, but in my experience this is like the most stable way to get ratings, especially if you don't have a WEbGL build. Some people just don't play everyone's game that played theirs

Submitted

It's okay not to play all the games that are playing your, because it's not always easy or even possible to play them. I do agree there is a weird fear of playing games that needs to be downloaded. In most cases is the downloaded versions of the games, actorly better then the once you play in the browser.

Submitted (3 edits) (+2)

I agree, it's a lot more fun to promote others' games that you think deserve attention.
Something to do instead of chasing ratings is to chase good games to rate.
It will give you insight into what others did great with the theme and their time in the jam and can therefore serve as a collection of inspiration for your future game jams, as well as contribute to the community.
Try to improve your own developing skills without getting too self-centered.
Game jams are all about community, so in my opinion, the best types of ratings and feedbacks are from those that found you through a sincere post in the community tab, a shoutout, or on their own game page when you rated it.

And in the worst case you won't get enough ratings, but what's the harm in that? I rather get insufficient high-quality ratings with great feedback than ass-kissers that rate my game low without playing it and begging me to play their game in the comments x)
I'm not provoked by someone doing this, just giving some examples and my two cents on this :)

Submitted(+1)

I also agree, I think the games title and thumbnail should speak for itself.

Submitted(+2)

I do understand your point of view and to be perfectly honest I'm not AT ALL legitimate to say out loud that I agree 100% with you, as I thoroughly showed activity on these threads. I agree to the fact that there's way to much rate for rate threads and that other very cool threads are getting burried under this mess which is a shame. On the other hand, giving a look at the rate for rate threads also made me discover some great games from first jammers. Of course there's a lot of unfinished and unpolished ones, but man there's definitely a lot of GREAT IDEAS and I really mean it. I do try my best this JAM to be a community guy and share my games and thoughts for once, leaving a lot of feedbacks, so I did write my own thread to thank people, but in the end a lot of people ended up leaving comments like "rated your game, rate mine" kinda thing where all I wanted was really to encourage people talking and sharing their experience.

To me the best of both worlds would be to have a dedicated section to the rate of rate, moving it away from the community threads. 

Submitted

You game now have 88 ratings. This is about 4 times the ratings needed to get a score in the jam. At the same time most games had a really hard time to get near the 20 ratings. When most games has the needed 20 ratings I don't care what you do, and then you will be more then welcome to make as much self promotion that you like to do.  But for now it's more important we all get a great experience out of the game jam.

You will only find a limited number of games in the 'rate for rate'-posts and they end up been the game taking the most of intension . 

Submitted (1 edit) (+1)

You're definitely right, at first I didn't even know that a game shall aim for 20 ratings. That's why in the past few days I made sure to play and leave feedbacks on a lot of games by going to the "submissions in need of ratings" section, that's also why I felt comfortable enough sharing my opinion in this thread. I may be promoting my game a lot, in the end I'm looking for meaningful feedbacks while I did and will continue playing other submissions. Right now I've rated around 50 submissions, and we still have like a week to play even more, I'm almost matching the amount I got on my page if this can ease you out :)

I do admit that this is the first time I'm actually sharing my game and taking part in the community even after years of game dev, so I might have misunderstood at first the propper aim to look for.

Submitted

I understand why you and other do self promote, and it's fair that you wants some better feedback. I just want to help us all to have a better jam experience.

Submitted(+1)

I really respect that and believe that it's the right choice

Submitted (1 edit)

Wow, what a nice experience, working for a week, drawing all the sprites from scratch, all scripts, UI and getting 0 reviews

Submitted

It's interesting seeing that a lot of the 'rate for rate'-posters don't seem to be in any kind of hurry to rate all the games.

Submitted (2 edits) (+1)

I started doing it cause my game had 5+- ratings after two days while others I seen had 50+-, It is just a promotion tactic an tbh I will keep doing it because I never had this number of plays/rating on my games. 

The system is broken, we just adapted to it.

*Edit> If itch.io would force search filter for "least rated" only, and after 20+- rated games it unlocked everything for you, it would be better.

*Edit> If it was call "PLAY FOR PLAY" would you see THAT as a problem?

Submitted

100% agree
It's not like we're saying, "Rate everything an 5."

We are asking for a rating as such, even if the grade is 1 in all categories
Because otherwise our game is not found and, accordingly, the result of the gamejam for us is a disappointment

Submitted

It has nothing to do with the name. The issue is very basic, and comes from a misunderstanding of what a game jam is. Game jam's is NOT about ME, but about US.  'Rate for rate'-post is all about getting people to play MY game, and not about playing or rating other peoples games. I think often we forget the community aspect for a game JAM, and instead we see it as a place to self promote what we are doing.

The sad part of this is that the best part of the game jams is not making the games, but it is share them with others, and seeing what others has done. 

Submitted(+1)

Apparently you see only 1/2 of the idea of jams.

1) yeah - community is huge part and I thing me, with playing and rating 40+- games and giving feedback on most of those is giving to the community the most I possibly can with my free time...

2) The second part is learning how to gamedev. I always got so little feedback and plays I never learned what I did wrong. Now I have ton of feedback, plus I played games from active members of the comunity. I DONT SEE THE ISUE.

And I quote you "..it is share them with others, and seeing what others has done. " This is literally what the RATE-FOR-RATE posts DO >"I am sharing mine and play yours", You are contradicting yourself. 

If you dont like it, write to Itch.io support so the change the system, but with how things are curently, it is nessesery for many to get ANY plays, because NOONE is using the "least played" filter...

And one more thing... I will play your game to prove that posting on the community tab will get you places you can't get otherwise.

Submitted

I am sorry that it is really difficult to understand my point. And I do understand the idea of the game jam. The second part do also dement that people plays their game to get feedback. And I do agree it happens to some degree, and that is great, but the 'rate for rate'-posts sending most intention to the few there is tanking part of them. And you can say we all should do this, but this would not help no one. 

 "..it is share them with others, and seeing what others has done. " is not a contradicting myself because, because many of those posts actorly only plays and rate a very few of the games that is on those posts, and therefor they mostly a way to get attention to their own games.

In general 'Rate for rate' should just be something we do, not something we shall be begging for happening in 'Rate for rate'-posts. 

And you are of cause welcome to play my game, and I also hope you will play, rate and give feedback to games that really needs it. 

Submitted

So you're asking to do the same Rate to Rate without using specific posts...? So what's the difference in using them then. And I don't see that you're doing a lot of game grading, bruh
Also it's work days, do you have time to look for games?

Submitted (1 edit)

The difference is that it is only for the few taking part of those kind of kind of posts. The issue is also that a lot people writing this kind of post don't do the the for 'rate for rate' they just doing it to get people to play their games. 

Submitted (2 edits) (+1)

The majority of the people doing the threads have been following it. If there is a couple that aren't they're the exception. Some people take a bit to get around to the other games or dont announce that they have given feedback in the thread and instead just give it on the page

Imo I see the rate for rates and the behavior you want of people possibly rating others who rated them as pretty much the same. Theres just a tradeoff with the extra things that come with it along with that. Rate for rates main downside is that not everyone does them yes but on the other hand with the people rating others that rated them, that also is rare even in jams where rate for rates arent common so the same overall problem arises just in a different form. A lot of people dont sort random and play a random game to then give feedback on because the majority of the time its not given back and then they cant get ranked in the jam as they wasted all their time. The only reliable sort where its the case of being able to get feedback back reliably is sorting by most karma, popular or by the highest rated as those games tend to be active in the community but even then thats still funneling the votes into a small subset of games.

Rate for rates is a way for people who may otherwise not be seen to show their game to some people and collect some feedback while also returning the same thing in kind. Sure if somebody abuses this and rate for rates to get 100 votes that may be an issue but again its a small subset of those are actually doing the rate for rates, its just more noticeable as you see them in top rated and you are seeking them out (confirmation bias).

I agree in an ideal world this should not be the case but its not an ideal world and mechanics exist in itch that people use

Submitted

The question is why do we want a system where we should beg for ratings. Okay we can say that is the way world works, or we can try to do something about it. 

You give a part the answer yourself, because it is been used a lot to gain a lot attention, and you will see games getting more then 80-90 ratings because of this system. And this is a lot in game jam where we this time only is 753 games. The issue here is not only the once making the posts, but also people continually replaying to all of them.

Submitted (1 edit) (+1)

Again as I said thats a subset of the people getting rates, and sometimes thats not even how they got most of their rates. The bigger offender is the snowball effect that occurs in the games that reach the top of the top rated sort early on.

Also dont quite get what you mean by the last point as it could be two things. If its that the people replying dont actually play the games then thats why you make it so that they must play the game before you give feedback back with them giving feedback on the game page itself as being confirmation that they actually played it. If its that it buries everything else in the forums due to the constant activity then the solution isnt to stop it but to instead have a separate category. A thing a group does in the GMTK jam is has an organized rate swap where you get given 5 games every day from people who entered to rate and give feedback on. This helps remove that from the forums while still having it as an option for people to get noticed (with the 5 a day preventing abuse)

Submitted

Okay, what often happens is that people write a 'rate for rate'-posts, do usually play a few the first game on the list. This do some people knows, and they are therefor really fast to come with replies to those posts, and by doing this they at least tries to get a lot people to play their games. And I can see that it seem to be working pretty well. But are you number 7 or 8 to come with a replay to the post, then chance  is much smaller that they are playing your games.

But this not my main issue, but I don't want a system where people shall beg for ratings/feedback. You are welcome to think it's the way it just is, but I have been in many game jams where this is not an issue. It all about making a culture where everybody understand what a game jam is about, and it should never be about begging for ratings.

Submitted

I would love to do what you wrote about when I have time. But I don't see anything wrong with using the approach as separate posts

Submitted(+1)

My last post , I don't want this to take anymore of my time

You:"In general 'Rate for rate' should just be something we do, not something we shall be begging for happening in 'Rate for rate'-posts."

I 100% agree with that statement. I think we are on the same page of "the system is broken, this shouldnt be necessary", but you try to fight and make it right, but I just gave up cause it didnt work and try to float on top of the brokenness. But maily I speek from my POV where when I asked for rate-for-rate I played all the posted games, if others dont do that - than it is a problem.

Just for you I will compile the best/least rated games I played and post it on the cominity tab. 

Submitted

I don't want the game jams only to be for those taking part of 'rate for rate'-posts, and if we don't say or do anything it will never chance. And I totally respect that you will not use more time on this.

Submitted

You do realize that grading is often the purpose of coming to gamejam. To get an estimate of your abilities, to test yourself... 

How can I tell if I did well or not if I'm not being rated?)

Submitted

When you take part of a game jam it's important you take a active part of the playing, rating, and giving feedback. When you give feedback there is a link to your game. If you make some great feedback it should motivate them to give feedback back to you. It should never be necessary to be begging for feedback in 'rate for rate'-posts.   

Submitted(+1)

This JAM being an exception, I've always been making my games and keeping it for me and my friends so to me a JAM is more about enjoying yourself. You should probably already have an idea on how well you did according to your own vision of your work. Like everybody, you probably learnt a lot, maybe there are topics you discovered and that you wish to explore in the future. Maybe you had some time issues as well, how could you better manage your time for the next one, what took the most time, where do you feel that you need to put some extra effort and become better ?

All these questions are what lead me to the current developer I am and my workflow, and I keep asking myself the very same questions even after 7 years of active JAMs and am still often slightly changing my workflow. Of course you could say that I'm not legitimate to say all that since I have one of the most rated games, but since I've never shared my work before, I have a hard time understanding your point fully. On my end I'm playing like minimum 15 games per day and leaving feedbacks as meaningful as possible. Even tho I do not play and rate for this purpose, most of the time these same devs I left feedback for, come back to me and take the time to leave me with some feedbacks. I may be lucky or whatever, but I wish this vision of mine could help you.

Submitted (3 edits) (+2)

I believe that Rate to Rate posts are in some ways all that can save small projects
Like, my project before I started participating in such posts was viewed by... 0 people.

Awesome, how cool, how convenient, how much experience and appreciation gamejam gave me
And at the same time NO ONE has played the game for nothing at the moment

Submitted (2 edits)

Just "Rate to Rate" does not mean that the rating is inflated, I was giving everyone a fair rating based on their projects
And I expect the same from the people who evaluated my game.

Submitted
Deleted 1 year ago
Submitted

So please, if you're lucky and your game is appreciated without such measures, you're in luck! I so wish I didn't have to beg for votes to know how good/bad my game is

Submitted

Stop trying to shut down the last working method of getting your projects rated

Submitted

You don't get it, most people don't get enough rating because of the 'rate for rate'-posts. All it do is to give attention to a very few games. 

Submitted(+1)

So is there a limited number of grades or what? I don't understand.

Submitted

also look at the scores of my game, how very much attention was taken away?)

Submitted

If you had zero before it seem to have got 15 ratings. But this not so much the point. You should have gotten the same number of ratings by playing, rating and given feedback to others games, without having to write a 'rate for rate'-post.  The issue is that you have to beg for getting those ratings, it should be a natural part of take a active part of game jam. And yes think it I would be a great idea to limit to how many rating you can get, or at least have a limit it until most games has gotten at least 20 ratings.

Submitted (2 edits) (+2)

Interesting to see how people are reacting to this topic, I didn't think this would get this controversial !

 I had tend to believe that most people would agree with the author of the thread.

Submitted

I think for most them it is difficult to understand the issue.

Submitted(+2)

I do see both the pros and cons to "rate-for-rate" posts. However, if we want to get rid of rate-for-rate posts, maybe there should be a way to ensure people have their games played? For instance, maybe having a "play 20 other games and review them" requirement for the jam as well.

Submitted

I dunno, I like where you're coming from but I could see that turning into people just rating games without playing them even more than already happens. I think if we instead were only allowed to advertise other people's games (maybe even a max of once or twice per game), we would have a bit more of a fair and honest way of people getting ratings/feedback maybe 

Submitted (1 edit)

Interesting concept but I feel that people would then resort to creating "advertise for advertise" posts where people would say "I'll advertise your game if you advertise mine." And to solve the problem of rating without playing, maybe require people to play for at least a minute before playing rating?

Submitted(+1)

lmao I didn’t even think of that, it’d still be the same problem. At the very least though, if someone did make an advertise for advertise post, then presumably it would be one post filled with the same link, so it wouldn’t really be worth doing if that makes sense. Good idea to require them to have played for a certain amount of time, it would fix the rating issue. 

Submitted(+1)

Actually the more I think about it, there would definitely be some cheeky work arounds to basically still have a rate for rate post with my idea

Submitted(+1)

Lmao, all good!

(-2)

That's cool and all but please for the love of god spell "Attention" correctly.

Submitted

I am sorry I am not an English professor.