Post by Annogiemouse in Every time I come back and read changes I'm a little disappointed.

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While a preponderance of story/explorer/normal players is one explanation, I think the bar for nightmare might be something along the lines of "Auradev is able to clear this, so it's theoretically winnable." Which would explain why the game became harder after the turn orders lost randomness, why the festival purification strategy got nerfed after we started talking about it on the forum(I rather liked being greedy with that one but respect the position of it being an oversight), and why new (plunderable) additions to the game seem to come with a reduction in loot elsewhere.

It should also be noted that the deluxe edition has a built-in cheat console. This might be skewing the perception of some patreon players.

dragondeity1 year ago

Given that I've spoken on nightmare mode's poor balance in the past, you'd be forgiven for thinking I'm referring to it. I'm not.

Belphegor (Pure) is a nigh impossible fight on NORMAL/HARD without one of three things. New game +, drugs (especially bloodshot since lascivious won't offer much to pure) or star knightess. NG+ obviously shouldn't be necessary, but radiance is very strong. Star Knightess obviously shouldn't be necessary, as it's an instant-win crutch against anything and frankly defeats the point of playing. And while I think drugs are the most legitimately arguable since they do not affect ng+ points, and thus can technically be used on pure runs, I do not find this satisfactory. That a 'pure' run would require drug abuse goes against the very point of playing pure.

There is but one answer left. From day 1, Aura must desperately focus all of her stat-increases in to as much magic defense as she possibly can. She must save and bless every single vitality potion she can, specifically for this fight. Then, and only then, does she have a *chance* at standing up to Belphegor. The dual assault of Belphegor and Luciela deal indefensible amounts of damage to anyone not using the above 3 options. Only a pink run with ludicrous amounts of magic defense (thanks to lascivious' *past* use during scenes) can hope to defeat them without any of the above.

There are many posts over months if not dating back to Belphegor's introduction to the game that discuss it's poor balance. People talking about how they have 60-70+ magic defense and still cannot win....because they deal like 50-60 damage each per turn against a character lucky to have 300 health. Meanwhile, especially thanks to Luciela's reflection spell, that amount of damage output will kill you even BEFORE you can take Luciela out, never mind taking on Belphegor's what, 8k HP? Can't remember what it has right now, been a while.

> the bar for nightmare might be something along the lines of "Auradev is able to clear this, so it's theoretically winnable."

Even that has proven untrue upon the introduction of Firestorm's final floor and boss.

> " Nightmare mode will kill you though :'D"

> It should also be noted that the deluxe edition has a built-in cheat console. This might be skewing the perception of some patreon players.

Frankly think it's skewing the position of the dev. Only god knows where they supposedly get 20k for tuition on a pure run.

Olapsokalii1 year ago

Boys, I ain't reading all that, easy on the walls of texts. But we can see you are passionnate about this game, so it's a bit sad to see so much passion being somewhat ignored.

That said, something I picked up in all you said there :

"> It should also be noted that the deluxe edition has a built-in cheat console. This might be skewing the perception of some patreon players."

So basically, the game is pay to enjoy ? Kinda sad.

Trihan1 year ago

I mean...no? I've never used the cheat console and I really enjoy playing the game. Heck, I get paid to create it, so I'm literally the embodiment of the polar opposite of the conclusion you've drawn. :P

Annogiemouse1 year ago

Basically, what I'm saying is that people with voting power have a blind spot with regards to how difficult the game might be for new players.

The game remains enjoyable without cheats.

But the game is becoming more about puzzling together the one "correct" way to play instead of trying to make fun builds work.

dragondeity1 year ago

I'm not necessarily suggesting you're saying this about me specifically, but I'm hardly a new player. I have posts going back months and months. I would say I understand the game quite well, well enough to identify where the issues currently are. Maybe not enough to offer answers, but enough.

The games difficulty isn't a problem for 'new' players. It's a problem for players who;

Don't focus the right stats from day 1.
Play on anything higher than like story or explorer.
Don't employ the use of cheat consoles.
Wish to avoid the use of Star Knightess.
Don't want to have to rely on luck to succeed. This is different to save scumming because it means spending more time empowering Aura before taking on fights to AVOID it. (Turn orders were fixed, but tons of fights are only winnable in an enjoyable timeframe with save scumming dodges.)
Wish to play a pure run.
Wish to play lewd/pink runs that still engage with the story/combat of the game. Runs like these because an utter slog to get through because of Roland and Hermann, as well as later mental change debuffs, and that's ignoring your corruption completely ruining your baseline willpower. It basically means that if you engage with this content, it feels like the game thinks you aren't engaging with other content. Emerald Tea tax.
Don't save scum nearly every fight to properly manage resources and health. There's no way I'm going to take half my hp to a goblin fight early in the game for example, when there's a completely realistic chance through tactical advantage I no hit a fight.
Don't know about Belphegor's 80/100 day timer, or Sathanas' 100 day timer.
Wish to actually defeat them within those timers.
Don't know what spells exist in the academy, can't afford it because pure, and try to do Firestorm without a tier 2 spell. (P.S I did this once and got all the way through to the double lizard fight spamming potions.)

I wouldn't even say necessarily it's becoming about puzzling together the correct way to play (though that IS an issue for some styles of playthroughs) It's that it increasingly feels like the balance of it's gameplay is entirely designed around ng+ carry over and exploiting the point system as much as you can with constant resets.

Like friendly reminder it takes 160 days (80 working days) of 250 gold (max) workshopping to afford tuition. Which isn't even accounting for doing anything else with your time or how long it takes to gain said star metals.

I like a lot about this game, but not that it requires an obscene level of time management perfection just to STILL need luck.

Annogiemouse1 year ago

#1. #9, and #11 are all knowledge checks, you get better at them as you refine your builds on subsequent playthroughs but your first run will hurt the most. #8 too to some extent, as getting tactical advantage is largely a matter of understanding mob patrol patterns and knowing what skills/items to get.
Disagree on #2(and, on some level, #6), I'd say the game is still fine on normal. Then again, I may have played too many runs.
#4 and #5 are arbitrary restrictions that you placed on yourself. And while a case can be made for not obligating players to use the collar, not wanting to rely on luck is akin to not wanting to use drugs or the slime. If you fail because you deliberately handicapped yourself? That's a you problem, not a game problem.
While #7 somewhat ties into my point about the game having "correct" routes, the fact that progress on the pink path tanks your victory score is a pretty big hint that you're not actually supposed to be carving your way through the pure paths while on a pink run.
Hermann and Roland basically excluding one another due to how their downsides interact can be pretty healthy for the game so long as it doesn't require both to max out your defeat score. Pink having multiple routes increases replayability, and something like "mostly pure except Roland, and I used SKA on ABC bosses" is one of the more newb-friendly ways to get through the game.
#10 is similar to #8 if you accept #1, #4, and #5 in the sense that the demon generals don't offer enough leeway for players to beat them without resorting to the collar unless they metagame and don't handicap themselves.

Personally, I think luck currently feels a little underpowered at either end of the graph compared to other non-agility stats. Buffing it to 3% per point of difference or having it cap out at a difference of 15 could be nice.

dragondeity1 year ago

I would say discussing point by point would prove fruitless, as we'd inevitably continue to disagree, so I'll just say this.

It says something about the game that your first playthrough (or more) is doomed to failure.

I'll make the obvious time management and life/rpg comparison to Persona. Imagine if with improper time management your playthrough of persona 5 was doomed to fail. No, you might miss some confidants, maybe not max social stats, or get to see all the random mini-games or events etc, but the game stays able to be finished. Removing the collar isn't a real collar. Removing the collar is just a crutch for poorly balanced fights.

HeroicSpirit1 year ago (2 edits)

Is it bad I read "Removing the collar is just a crutch for poorly balanced fights" in the voice of Jasper from Steven Universe?

Annogiemouse1 year ago

And in a similar vein to how you might miss a few things and fail at some stuff in Persona, a first-time player trying to go pure on normal difficulty will probably stumble through to the end with about 10-20 mental changes, a few points of lewdness, and having had to resort to the collar for the three demon generals because they failed the timer and/or killed the drug dealer. Or they ended up with soul break after using the collar like a crutch instead recognizing that the limit break ability is balanced by its limited use, similar to bombs in a danmaku game.

You seem to be conflating things like difficulty and complexity with poor balance. Like I said before, that's more of a "you" problem.

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