Post by Eldwood in Problems with the "3D" tag - itch.io

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Eldwood1 year ago(+2)

The problem is that tags are selected by the game creator, and every creator has a different interpretation of what the tags mean. The alternatives would be tags selected by community consensus and tags selected by a central authority, but these come with their own problems.

FWIW, I agree that static 3D images in a visual novels don't qualify as 3D, but I also don't think being able to rotate the camera is a requirement for a 3D game. Grim Fandango is a 3D game despite having a static camera because the characters themselves can rotate in 3D.

redonihunter1 year ago (1 edit)

Good point. How would you differentiate between 2d images and 3d renders that are static and hence also 2d images?

Would you tag such a render 2d or 3d?

Would you expect a visual novel that tags 3d to have a walking simulator environment, like a first person or third person engine?

And for playing in 3d, first person and third person are more significant. If you only tag 3d, I will not expect first person view and walking in 3d environment. Most of the time the 3d tag is superflous anyways. As useless as tagging indie here.

But let's have a look at some restricted consensus environment with tagging and the tags of Grim Fandango on Steam. It does not tag 3d, but it does tag third-person. Skyrim tags first-person and third-person, no 3d. There are games tagged with that, but I guess it often is replaced with more relevant tags, as those tags seem to be majority vote.

Since there are only 10 tags to tag, 3d is useless most of the time, imho. If you do not make a 3d puzzle, other tags have more information. Visual novels are usually in first person, but they do not tag this either. But there, 3d actually has some information, because in combination, it indicates, that the art is done with 3d models - but even here, the screenshots and thumbnail of the game will give that information even better.

No Time To Play1 year ago

Bu you can't search for something you can see with your own eyes in a screenshot. That's why tags are important. And browsing for 3D games versus 3D tools versus 3D assets is going to yield completely different results, each useful to a different audience.

redonihunter1 year ago

Browsing for 3d will give you horror. Page one is 33 of 36. And of the other 3 one had a subgenre of horror and one tagged gore.

Not that other tags are any better. Sure that over 90% popular games on itch are all horror exclusive? That somehow does not sound that right. Should it not diversify after entering a tag?

Anyways, if there is tags free, one can use it, but for searching it is not that good. It is not even used on steam very often (for "3d" games), where 20 tags are possible. With double the tags and this tag still not surfacing for 3d content, I am quite convinced, that it is useless as a tag in most cases. It is implied in too many other tags or not of interest. Or like in this thread's point, people do not use it consistent and do not have the same opinion what it actually means.

No Time To Play1 year ago

Diversity of opinions is a good thing. I'd still rely on tag combinations for refining a search. That's how a lot of my stuff gets found.

redonihunter1 year ago

Not in regards to words and their meaning. If we have "opinions" that differ on the meaning of the very words we use to communicate, misunderstandings are bound to happen.

For instance, 3d can also mean stereoscopic. Or that the 2d images are rendered in 3d.

3d is one of those tags that work better with combination.

No Time To Play1 year ago

Yes, my point exactly. Besides, misunderstandings are normal between people.

What misunderstanding could there be with the third-person game tag? I think this tag is extremely clear and unambiguous. Why is the 3D tag so vague?

No Time To Play1 year ago

Your entire OP argues that "3D" can have different meanings depending on context.

My who? I suggest removing the 3D tag and adding two specific tags with specific values instead.

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Then answer, how can I find through the search games that have three dimensions? The genre of the game doesn’t matter to me, it doesn’t matter if the game is played in first person, third person or second person. It doesn't matter if it's a simulator, a shooter or a strategy game. All that matters to me is that the game be three-dimensional.

What combination of tags should I use for this?

For me this is the problem. I want to play a 3D game. So I find a game with the 3D tag that is three-dimensional in the screenshots. It looks very nice. I download the game, unpack it, and see that the game is based on the Renpai engine. And I know that Renpai does not support 3D.

This is what I think is the problem. Looking only at the screenshots, you can’t understand whether the game has three dimensions or not

Grim Fandango is a 3D game despite having a static camera because the characters themselves can rotate in 3D

Rotating the camera usually means the game is in three dimensions. I haven't seen a game in which you can rotate the camera but that isn't 3D. Just like you said, in this game you cannot rotate the camera, but you can rotate the character himself since he is a three-dimensional model. And the entire environment, as far as I understand (I have not played this game), is also three-dimensional.

What about visual novels labeled 3D? There are pre-rendered flat pictures, and also pre-rendered 3D animations (video). But there is no real three-dimensionality there. The camera cannot be rotated, and the character cannot be rotated. The characters are not three-dimensional models, nor are the entire environment. Roughly speaking, this is a set of pictures and animations (videos).

The problem is that tags are selected by the game creator, and every creator has a different interpretation of what the tags mean.

They have no alternative. The 3D tag has a lot of meanings, and naturally, when there is only one tag, they add it. But if there are two separate tags, 3D game and 3D computer graphics, it will become more clear where there is real three-dimensionality and where graphics created using 3D technology are used. Naturally, the game co-creators themselves will add tags to their games. But in this case, users will be able to complain about developers who have assigned an inappropriate tag to their game. Now there is nothing to complain about.

redonihunter1 year ago

You have a misconception here.

Tags on itch are not official, nor enforced. While you might get reported for using blatantly false and misleading tags, most tags have such a wide range of applicablilty, that they are usually not false, even if you think so.

You can even release a game without tagging it.

So what you propose is already in effect. People could use the proposed tags and could use them according to your definition. The tag list is not a fixed list, and you can freely invent new tags. They might not get featured or suggested, but they are browseable. You need to write in the tag box and click filter.

Since you have a flat (or sligthly curved) display, any game is 2d, no matter what you think it is. So what 3d means is ambigous. It is projected to a 2d plane in the end. A renpy game featuring "3d" movie sequences or even still images would qualify. Speaking of movies. In that context, only stereoscopic qualifies as "3d" now (there is "3d" animation though) and in regard to games, there are "3d" games, that can be played in stereoscopic mode. To go even further, all games are in a virtual setting, that you could call virtual reality - but luckily no one caught on to that and vr is usually tagged for games supporting vr goggles. But you could tag a text game about a Matrix setting as vr...

In short, 3d does not explicitly mean, that the game play is calculated or shown in 3d.

Look at Steam tags for some "3d" games, if you can find the 3d tag there. They have 20 tags and the tags are community chosen. 3d is just not used that much.

What you seek you might find under 3d, or any of the the other tags people use for the concept, like for first person, third person, walking simulator, fps, fps-platformer.

The problem is, some tag first person, some 3d, some both or some other tag or they tag the dimensions of the game not at all and focus on story tags. And there is no enforcement of the usage.

Are you making an idiot out of yourself on purpose? Have you read my very first message in this thread? Do you understand that 3D and 3D game are different terms? While 3D can mean anything, a 3D game has one specific meaning that is clear to everyone. Everyone except you, apparently.

A three-dimensional computer game (3D, English three-dimensional) is a game, a visual space that is entirely built from three-dimensional objects. The character is in three-dimensional space and in some games has complete freedom of movement. The first 3D game was Maze War (1973).

Three-dimensional games are fundamentally different from two-dimensional (2D) games, in which the game space consists of ready-made flat images - either hand-drawn or created by an artist in a three-dimensional modeling environment and then saved as ordinary images. The computer's task here is reduced only to combining these images in accordance with the game algorithms, which explains the low requirements of two-dimensional games for computer power. The freedom of movement of a character in two-dimensional games is limited: he can only move along the route provided by the developers.

Intermediate options between 2D and 3D are possible. Sometimes the term 2.5D is used for them.

The game space is three-dimensional, but the models of game objects - buildings, plants, characters - are flat pictures, sprites. An example is early 3D games such as Wolfenstein 3D and Doom. In modern 3D games, sprites are used only to display objects that are present in very large quantities (for example, grass and trees), as well as objects that are located at a great distance from the character. This is done to save computer computing resources: for example, modeling a completely three-dimensional tree with thousands of leaves is a very difficult task for a computer, and modeling an entire forest is an impossible task, and it is impossible to do without sprites.

The game space is two-dimensional, but the character models are three-dimensional. This technology is used in many quests. It allows you to combine high-quality two-dimensional hand-drawn backgrounds (usually partially animated) with “live” freely moving characters and at the same time does not require computer power. A striking example of such a game is Syberia.

redonihunter1 year ago

You still do not get it, do you?

Tags. Are. Chosen. By. The. Publisher.

Maybe ponder a bit, what consequences this has. And that there are only 10 tags you can have. And that the devs not only chose the tags but create them. They are not from a fixed pool. You can use any tag. Even the ones you suggested. There are even people tagging "game". Or "indie". Even "3d game" is used as a tag.

With this knowlege you can answer all your questions yourself. Also the question, why it is not done what you propose. And not doable.

Also, if you quote external, please put a link. That read like stuff that people would copy onto wikipedia. And that is not always correct. But most importantly, it is not context appropriate. We are talking about tags on an indie gameing site. Not about technical terms or marketing buzz words. What good does it do, if you use technical correct terms, but no one using the site would search for them?

Should you still wonder how to find the games you want, maybe try actually searching for them. You will find out, how to find them. Browsing for a specific tag goes only so far. Use alternative tags that mean the same. Click on related games of games you like. Look at your recommendations. Look at the collections listed when browsing, someone might have made a 3d games collection. Or use the 3d tag and scroll past the vn. You can even browse for 3d and add the exclusion for visual novels. How to do that, look in other threads about tags. You will find it.

K14M1 year ago (1 edit)

And that there are only 10 tags you can have

Well, let's count together

Page 1 of 14

Already on the first page I see more than ten tags. And there are many pages with tags on the site. Where did you get the number 10 from?

There are even people tagging "game". Or "indie". Even "3d game" is used as a tag.

I found the indie tag in the list of tags. The rest are not there.

With this knowlege you can answer all your questions yourself. Also the question, why it is not done what you propose. And not doable.

I never received answers to my questions. Why is the 3D tag added to games that do not correspond to the description of this tag on the site and no one does anything about it? Why can't you remove this tag and add two others as I suggested?

What good does it do, if you use technical correct terms, but no one using the site would search for them?

There will be no benefit until these correct tags are fixed on the site. Let's say I'm a game developer, I add my game but I don't find a suitable tag in the list of site tags. What to do? Can I make my own? You are trying to convince me that I can. Fine. What's the point of this? The site does not offer this tag. There is only one game marked with this tag. Naturally he will not be successful.

But we need to officially add the 3D game and 3DCG tags so that they are displayed on the site, then they will be used and it will make sense. The current 3D tag can be changed to 3DCG, this will be more correct, and the 3D game tag can be added separately. If the tag is officially accepted, it will begin to be used

Should you still wonder how to find the games you want, maybe try actually searching for them.

How? You still haven't answered how I can search for 3D games? How to do it? There is no suitable tag on the site

Use alternative tags that mean the same.

There are no such tags on the site. There are only those that narrow the search and display even fewer games than needed

You can even browse for 3d and add the exclusion for visual novels.

Do you see a minus symbol somewhere here? I only see "plus". I see how to add another tag to the search. But there is no button to exclude their search tag

redonihunter1 year ago

Is this a translation issue? Do you not understand what is written here?

"10 tags you can have" is not the same as "10 tags to chose from". You (as a publisher) can only select 10 tags for a project.

(1) I never received answers to my questions. (2) Why is the 3D tag added to games (3) that do not correspond to the (4) description of this tag on the site and (5) no one does anything about it? (6) Why can't you remove this tag and add two others as I suggested?

(1) You did. Just read them again.

(2) Wrong assumption. It is the devs that do it. Talking in passive form implies that itch or some automatic does it.

(3) That is a matter of opinion in most cases, including "3d".

(4) Feel free to click the link below the tag description that reads "Suggest updated description".

(5) About what? People having different opinions than you about what constitutes correct usage of tag 3d?

(6) Who is you? You are not talking to itch representatives here. Your are arguing in a community thread. Itch can't remove a tag in a system, where tags are created by users of the site. They might block an offensive tag, but otherwise, what tags are used and who uses it for what, is completely user driven.

Oh, and this is used by a few games https://itch.io/games/tag-3d-game This is not https://itch.io/games/tag-3dcg

Both the tags you propose exist already. But no one uses the second one.

There will be no benefit until these correct tags are fixed on the site. Let's say I'm a game developer, I add my game but I don't find a suitable tag in the list of site tags. What to do? Can I make my own? You are trying to convince me that I can. Fine. What's the point of this? The site does not offer this tag. There is only one game marked with this tag. Naturally he will not be successful.

I do not need to convince you. See and believe! The point is, that itch offers general purpose tagging, as you would see on a photo album site.

Oh, and according to your logic, all the 170 games in that list would be unsuccessfull because of their usage of that tag.

https://itch.io/games/tag-banana

You still haven't answered how I can search for 3D games?

And this from someone accusing me of making an idiot of myself on purpose. I already gave my advice. You do not need to take it, but stop acting like it was not given.

Do you see a minus symbol somewhere here?

How to do that, look in other threads about tags. You will find it.

You need to actually read the answers. The method to do tag exclusion, is talked about in several threads. For someone nitpicking on a technical definition you sure act like a tech illiterate.

You (as a publisher) can only select 10 tags for a project.

Did I write somewhere that I am a publisher? I am a user who is not satisfied with the current tagging system.

Okay, let's say I was a publisher. And what does this change? Do you want to say that if instead of the “3D” tag, there are two tags “3D game” and “3DCG”, will this somehow negatively affect publishers? Nothing like this. Now, regardless of the description of the 3D tag, publishers add it to themselves to attract attention. If instead of one tag there are two, publishers will set themselves one of the tags, the one that suits them best.

(3) That is a matter of opinion in most cases, including "3d".

What opinion are you talking about? On the website, the 3D tag has a specific description, which narrows all variations of this term to a more specific one. If the site didn’t have a description of the tags, it wouldn’t matter. But there is a description

(4) Feel free to click the link below the tag description that reads "Suggest updated description".

And what will this change? If I offer my description, will all game developers listen to the change and correct their tags? I doubt

(5) About what? People having different opinions than you about what constitutes correct usage of tag 3d?

Then answer a simple question. Why was the language invented? Speech. Words. Why is all this necessary if people are not able to understand each other because no one uses dictionaries and the same word has a different meaning for each person? Why do we use words at all if we cannot understand their meaning? Replace tags with pictures and nothing will change. Let's communicate like primitive people with cave paintings.

That’s why words are needed to exchange specific meanings. if I say "sea". So I mean the sea. A sea is a large body of salty water. There is a word and there is a specific meaning of this word. The same goes for tags. What does the "first person" tag mean? Does this tag have multiple different meanings? Does everyone understand it differently? Or does the tag have one meaning in the context of games? Likewise, the 3D tag should have one meaning so as not to confuse people, otherwise the tag is useless. We use tags to narrow down the search and not to confuse it.

But no one uses the second one.

Nobody uses it? And what's that? Enough mentions

Oh, and according to your logic, all the 170 games in that list would be unsuccessfull because of their usage of that tag.

What does this have to do with the “unsuccessfull” game and the use of one unsuccessful tag in it? If the game only had these unpopular tags and an unattractive name, then obviously the game itself would be unpopular. But these games also have other, more popular tags, tagged 16-bit (6,145 results), Platformer (128,458 results)

You need to actually read the answers. The method to do tag exclusion, is talked about in several threads.

Do you know what it's called on the Internet? This is called "sending in rough form". Instead of answering how to do something, you send me to look for how to do it. Why did you even come to this topic then? This is a universal answer to any question. A person comes to the forum, asks for something, and they answer him - go and look for it yourself. GREAT! This is the most useless and, moreover, offensive message. Or maybe the tag exclusion method is so complex that you don't understand it yourself? Then everything is clear. If you yourself are technically illiterate, then don’t try to teach others.

redonihunter1 year ago

Learn English, or use a better translator, and most importantly learn how to extract meaning from words. You were given answers, but you refuse to understand them. Or you are unable to.

Did I write somewhere that I am a publisher?

This question demonstrates your lack of language comprehension.

Read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You#Third_person_usage

publishers add it to themselves to attract attention. If instead of one tag there are two, publishers will set themselves one of the tags, the one that suits them best

You might hope to attract attention. But you tag what you deem fit for your project. You can even invent tags. Never saw an open tagging system? It is as open as hashtags are on social media. So go to X and complain that people invent tags all day, instead of using predefined ones.

If the site didn’t have a description of the tags, it wouldn’t matter. But there is a description

There is two problems here. First, those descriptions are "descriptions" and not "definitions". Look up the words, if you have trouble with the meaning of those words. Second, the description of the 3d tag is as non commiting as it can be. It merely says, it is 3d games. Which does not give you any new information. You alread are browsing for games and you already have selected 3d.

With an open tagging system, you do not consult any descriptions. You just write in the tags you think would describe your game or should be associated with the game. It is tagging, not selecting categories like game or not game.

Will it be easier for you to understand if you think about it as a tweet with hashtags? Here look at my new game #indie #3d #visualnovel.

And what will this change? If I offer my description, will all game developers listen to the change and correct their tags? I doubt

Read your reply again. You are beginning to understand why it is not doable, what you propose ;-)

And as said many times here: tags are chosen by the devs. This has consequences. Including that you cannot retroactivly change what tags mean or force devs to select certain tags.

Please do not reply with yet another demonstration of you not understanding the different uses of "you".

Why is all this necessary if people are not able to understand each other

I fear the irony of this is lost on you.

Nobody uses it? And what's that? Enough mentions

Those are all adult games. Set your settings to ( ) Show content marked as adult in search & browse and try again. Also, this is open community, please do not post screenshots of adult games or their thumbnails here.

It seems the tags you are looking for are only (!) used in adult games. No non-adult game uses this tag here on itch.

But nevertheless, you proven to yourself, that the tags you propose already exist.

If the game only had these unpopular tags and an unattractive name, then obviously the game itself would be unpopular

This is not what you claimed. You are using a strawman argument fallacy. You did not write, that a game needed to select only non-used tags to be unpopular. You only talked about a single tag and made no mention about the other 9 tags. Also, what you conclude does not follow from the premise. There are games here that are popular yet do not have any tags at all! You can release a game here and not even be on the index, and have success. Did it not occur to you, that games are marketed outside of itch? Itch staff specifically recommends to not rely on internal marketing from existing on the index.

go and look for it yourself.

I told you the terms to look for.

https://itch.io/community/search?category_id=0&query=tag+exclusion

Did you even try to look? There even is a sticky thread about it. It is at the very top of the list in ideas and feedback subforum.

So go to X and complain that people invent tags all day, instead of using predefined ones.

What is X and why should I complain about this site there?

Just because anyone can create their own tag does not mean that anyone will use them. These tags are not in the list of tags, they do not have descriptions, and therefore they will not be used by ordinary site users. They just don't know that such tags exist.

Regarding the language. The site has been translated into my language. Maybe you should learn my language?

It merely says, it is 3d games. Which does not give you any new information. You alread are browsing for games and you already have selected 3d.

And you still teach me the language? What is 3D anyway? Literally three dimensions. Is there a third dimension in flat visual novels? Did you study geometry at school?

With an open tagging system, you do not consult any descriptions.

So words are not important? I can attach any tags to my game, the most popular tags, to attract attention, and no one really cares if I blatantly lie? Great "open" tagging system. Why then do we need tags at all if when I search for something specific I don’t get it? If I choose “first-person”, then there may well be “second-person” and “third-person” games, and do you think this is completely normal?

And as said many times here: tags are chosen by the devs.

Are you saying that tags are added by developers? You are blatantly lying! If this is the case, then why are these tags not in the tag list? I checked all the pages!

https://itch.io/tags	https://itch.io/tags?page=8
https://itch.io/tags?page=2	https://itch.io/tags?page=9
https://itch.io/tags?page=3	https://itch.io/tags?page=10
https://itch.io/tags?page=4	https://itch.io/tags?page=11
https://itch.io/tags?page=5	https://itch.io/tags?page=12
https://itch.io/tags?page=6	https://itch.io/tags?page=13
https://itch.io/tags?page=7	https://itch.io/tags?page=14

Нет тегов 3DCG или 3D-игр. Их нет ни на одной странице. А раз их не существует, значит, ими мало кто будет пользоваться. И пользователи, и разработчики. Пока тег не будет официально присвоен, он будет менее популярен.

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redonihunter1 year ago(+1)

With an open tagging system, you do not consult any descriptions. You just write in the tags you think would describe your game or should be associated with the game. It is tagging, not selecting categories like game or not game.

To elaborate.

The tagging comes first. Then comes the description what people use those tags for.

And that would also be the explanation why the 3d description is so vague. Or why you can propose a new description for a tag.

And since I was not heard, I repeat my question. What combination of tags do I need to enter to find ONLY 3D games? Not “first person”, not “third person”, not “walking simulator”, not “fps”, not “fps platformer”, but in general all three-dimensional games and nothing but three-dimensional games.

hechelion1 year ago(+1)

Answering your question is impossible, there really isn't a way on itch or any other platform to get a list of games you want and leave out the ones you don't like.

Without getting into any controversy about the tags (I see your post has a couple).

The most feasible solution, if you have a specific game in mind, look at all the TAGs that that game has and try doing a search for those TAGs.

If not, try asking in the general forum, asking them to recommend games similar to X.

Greetings.

You're wrong. Torrent trackers have separate 3D and 3DCG tags. There I can search for the specific games I need by adding 3D to the search bar and excluding -3DCG. But I can’t do it here.

And it looks like you didn’t read me carefully either. I don't need games like X. I need 3D games. All 3D games on your site. Games in which there are three dimensions.

hechelion1 year ago(+1)

Maybe it's a language problem.

I'm going to try to say it super simply.

What you are asking for CANNOT be done the way you want. period.

None of those who have answered you (neither do I) own or have the power to change Itch's TAG system.

We are not trying to convince you of anything, I am not interested in whether you think the TAG system is bad or good or what you think you know about torrent.

Just to help, we try to explain to you how TAGs work in Itch so that you can make better search for what you want. But instead of understanding that we are trying to explain to you. You end up creating arguments that are of no use. Well yes, to never want to help you again.

K14M1 year ago (1 edit)

Show me specifically where someone helped me? In your language, does the word “help” have a different meaning? What does "help me" mean?

Change the tag system, this has not been done
Tell me how to search only for 3D games and nothing else, no one told me that
Tell us how to exclude the “visual novels” tag from the search query “3D”, this was also not covered

So where is the “help” here? I was not given any help regarding the questions I asked. So what are you offended by? It’s me who needs to be offended because they don’t answer my questions and switch the conversation to another topic...

hechelion1 year ago(+2)

I'm very sorry that you can't find what you're looking for, but with your attitude I'll stop trying to help you.

good luck.