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Inviting suggestions on engine options...

A topic by NSFP created Oct 29, 2022 Views: 888 Replies: 22
Viewing posts 1 to 6
(2 edits)

I need to find an engine I can start developing with yesterday. I have spent the greater portion of the year running through the gauntlet of what is probably every publicly accessible game engine relevant to current standards (ie not including engines that were abandoned in the 90s).  Nearly all of them have terrible little quirks that disqualify them as valid options. Does anybody know of one you could point me to that might solve this need? I'm running out of precious little time to get some work done, or else I'll have to abandon this pursuit all together.

The best options I've found so far, and why I'm still looking:
Godot - would be my first choice, but there are no learning resources for new users to get started (except their 2D engine, which is not relevant to me).
Stride - Great engine, like Unity but without the assholishly abusive and exploitative data farming or the clone-generation architecture AI that limits what you get to do with it. I would be working with Stride right now except that it requires to run Visual Studio for creating release-builds, which is not possible for me, and there doesn't seem to be any alternative method. Anything I develop with it would be useless.
Castle - A great infant-stage game engine being developed, but it's design is focused on hobbyists who just want something to dabble in. I need something I can create a saleable product with, which makes this a bad match-up for me (but one I fear I am about to have to settle on if I can't find an adequate option). I just know it'll bite me in the ass down the road if I get too invested in this one.
Titan (Esenthel) - Seems like a good low-level engine with powerful graphics pre-built into it, but only if you can get it installed. The installer from GitHub doesn't work and the downloadable installer from the Esenthel website hasn't passed AV inspection, and seemingly isn't going to.    That problem has been resolved! So this is now an option.
Torque - Has been in some transitional state for the last six months without any bulletins or announcements of what is going on. 90% of the manual is blank and there is only a few references to the engine online aside from that. So it's not too different from Godot that way.

Valid options:
Must be 3D, must have efficient physics (ie not java-based), It can have Visual Studio dependency, but can't require running visual studio, and it can't be a clone generator. I know, this standard invalidates 99% of all game engines, but such as these simply are not valid options for me to do what I need.

I am extremely frustrated and about ready to burn down the world. The possibility of creating a game that I could potentially sell is the only avenue to income I've been able to find, and failing now might as well be the end of the world for me. If that sounds over-dramatic, keep in mind you don't live my life and probably can't imagine the circumstances I am dealing with here. This is my only way out, as far as I've been able to find. If anybody can open the door I've been looking for, pleeeeease spill the beans.

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can you clarify what you mean by “clone generator” and “clone generation architecture AI”?

A clone generator is a game engine designed to streamline the creation of a specific type of clone, like RPG Maker. For example, there are a lot of clone generators for RTS and FPS, which give you very little control over your design except for what is relevant to the established conventions of their type of game. Clone generators are not designed to facilitate creative freedom, and it is anywhere from very difficult to impossible to create any type of game feature outside the scope of that engine's clone model. To contrast, a game engine that is not a clone generator is one that makes the most basic necessary features accessible, like a 3D environment ready to have any kind of art and code added into it, and a library specialized for doing things in 3D space, but makes no other assumptions about the nature of the project the user intends to create.

"clone generation architecture AI" by that I am referring to the clone generation features that have been developed into unity over the last few years. They've been systematically replacing their basic features with automated features that take control of your work and pre-process it into some form they assume you want. The last time I worked with Unity, I couldn't even import an animated mesh because the damned AI kept saying it was a humanoid model and therefore has to be assigned some ridiculous humanoid-model-rules that automatically separated it into animation clips with pre-defined physics-based movement and stuff. That was when I knew I had enough and it was time to find a proper game engine. I'm glad I did, because Unity has become a sinking ship since then. 

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What about Unreal Engine 4? 

3D? Check.

Physics? Check. And from what I could find on Google, they're not Java-based.

Visual Studio? I don't ever remember having to run VS while using UE4. Check.

Not a "Clone Generator"? While UE4 does have pre-made starter templates, you can also start from scratch. Check.

Not to mention you'd have tons of resources and tutorials at hand.


There are also these other options listed on this website.

While you research a game engine, have you considered just creating game assets as a source of income? 

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I never considered unreal engine because it is based on UDK, which was a FPS clone generator. I may have found a way to solve the problem with Stride (presently waiting on a reply from Stride's dev community), but if that falls through then I will take a closer look at Unreal. Thanks for the suggestion.

'game assets for income' If that is a real possible thing, I would definitely be interested. But, that bumps into the problem of the time it takes. This is not a hobby for me, I have been putting all my time and energy into starting a game development project for years. The engines I listed in my original post are only a few compared to how many I have poured weeks or even months into learning, to then only discover they are dead ends for one reason or another. I spun my wheels in Unity for like 4 years before I realized why that was never going to work out. That's why this has been so extremely frustrating for me. I've never had the time to explore other options because this is the only option I've been able to find and it has taken everything out of me and I'm still at square one. All I need is a damn chance. If I could just find something that can give me a chance, I'll stop at nothing to make the most of it.

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At this point I’d reconsider using a pre-made engine in the first place..

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What do you mean? Start my own original engine? I would prefer to do exactly that, but that will take much more time than I have. If I could go back in time and tell myself to do that 15 years ago, then I'd be free by now and doing whatever I want.  Now I have about four months left to try to salvage as best as I can. I can't develop a game that is it's own original engine in that time.

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I don’t know what to tell you. You seem to be asking us to magically fix your mistakes.

In the time you’ve spent worrying about a correct/elegant codebase you could have already progressed a fair amount. Yes, modern engines suck, but then your only choice left is to not use one.

If you ask me, a good game must internally be what you call a clone generator, as it allows the engine to be specialized and optimized for that one purpose. Any changes can be done by changing the engine itself. This is best done by just making the game, without a pre-made engine.

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good luck (that will never happen)!

I can see you clearly haven’t tried. Do not pretend to know what you’re talking about.

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I’m talking about an 3D engine, not a simple browser-like 2D engine.

So am I. My current project is three-dimensional.

Yes, I have never tried, why should I?

You have never tried, so your only view on the matter comes from other people, who also have probably never tried. In other words, hearsay. I have tried, and have direct experience in the area.

My experience shows, that the making the engine takes a very small amount of time compared to the making of the main game. Especially when the game is made alongside the engine, instead of separately.

But if you do it on a commercial basis, time is money and your game should need extra-ordinary functions the usual engines cannot provide. Don’t code stuff players don’t appreciate.

“Time is money” is neoliberalism and is thus an ideology, not fact. My ideology is different.

My choice of a custom engine very much brings with it observable results: my software works on old computers and I thus do not coerce anyone to spend hundreds of dollars on useless hardware. My software does not consume gigabytes of RAM to draw one triangle on the screen.

And I, as a player, do appreciate some effort put into a project, something the use of a custom engine very much shows. This alone proves that such an audience exists. They’re just quiet on average.

I am unlikely to play a game made with Unity or Unreal, and I am definitely not playing a game made with any AI, because it is by implication zero-effort and worthless, and is thus undeserving of my money. Despite not being aware of such an audience, you’ve pulled the number five out of your ass, thanks to your own neoliberal bias.

A custom engine does not mean 100% from scratch, anyway. I don’t know where this misconception comes from. I still use ODE as the physics engine, GLFW as the window library and SoLoud as the audio engine.

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Hi, thanks for replying.

I don't at all "curse" clone generators. Game clones are like clichès, they are popular for reasons, I understand that. For people who simply want to reinvent their favorite FPS, there are numerous ways they can do that, and I'm happy for them. But a clone generator won't suit my needs. I need a general-purpose engine that will not constrain my options in unnecessary ways, because my inspiration usually involves things that I've never seen done in any other game, and I'll have to design and program it myself.

Coding is not an issue for me. Each time I've decided on an engine to stick with, the first thing I do is learn that engine's scripting language if I don't know it already. I'm certainly not an expert programmer, but I have no problem scripting what I need, if I can actually find an engine to work in.

Graphics and audio is not an issue for me. I am a 3D artist, and I make my own sound effects and music.

The holdup is not all the things surrounding an engine, it's simply finding an engine (suitable to the general-purpose need I described) that I can get working. Unity is spoiling because it is ready to get and go right away.  There are numerous unity-like engines (ie the list in the original post), but the get-and-go setup is not so common. From installers that don't work, to total lack of documentation, most engines have problems that make them useless, and the only way to know is to take the dive and give one a shot. I spent months learning Godot before I gave up. The same/similar is true for several other engines.

Unity has been turned into another clone generator. It's perhaps the most versatile clone generator around, but it makes things I want to do impossible. Beside that, they, as a company, have totally lost my confidence. I won't even play new games made with Unity, those crooks cannot be trusted at all and their crap can stay the hell away from my computer. I took some time to check out Unreal a couple days ago (another respondent suggested it), that's one I'll consider a last-option. For one, it uses visual scripting, and that's the brakes. I will prefer Castle or Titan, where I can write out a script in the conventional way, before Unreal. Also they make their engine only available through Epic. I didn't think of listing this as a qualifier, but having to go through a service like Epic for an engine is also the brakes. That's the only reason I don't consider Leadwerks, they are only available through Steam. If you have to rely on one of those services for your engine, and something goes wrong with that service, then all your work is in jeopardy. A proper engine has the reliability of being standalone.

I appreciate your advice that "If you want complete freedom, you have to develop your own engine", but I don't believe that's true. There are SO MANY engines. Surely, SURELY there has to be one out there that is actually useful in a non-clone context. Over the last few days, I have come to feel like I am getting closer to one. I have found information that I believe may lead to a solution to Stride's big problem, which would be a big relief, but I'm having to wait on other people for help with that, so that progresses at their convenience. The Titan engine installer has passed AV inspection, so that one is now a possibility that I need to take a closer look at if Stride turns out to be no good. In the unfortunate situation that Stride and Titan prove to be non-options, then, my plan presently is to fall back on Castle. Castle is the one fully-working engine I have found that is get-and-go ready and has everything I need. But ooooh I really want to avoid it if possible, because that one's design direction makes it a big gamble, and I don't have anything to wager that I can afford to lose. That's the whole point of this thread, for if anybody knows of an engine I haven't tried yet that will be a better option than Castle.

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Ah, well I am sorry to hear you are in a similar situation, then. I have looked into O3D, and passed it up because they use visual scripting, just like Unreal.

Since there are indeed so many currently treading water without an engine to stay afloat on, including many displaced from Unity, like me, and since the world of game engines is so problematic with very few that actually check the boxes of what a developer needs, I wonder if that might be an indication that it's a proper time for us to network and create a new one responsive to this need. One that hits all the basics, is equipped with straight-forward methods, and doesn't constrain the user's creative freedom. Existing engines always give me the impression they are designed by market managers and created by software developers. There really aught to be an engine designed and created by game developers.

It is looking increasingly like there is no way for me to make use of Stride engine. It's not yet a fact, but pursuing it continues to lead to only more problems, and it is taking more time than I can continue to pay. Considering how much time I have spent on that, I am now feeling too pressured to try to tackle Titan engine, and am sinking into certainty that I have no other option but to settle on Castle engine. So, I don't know if that info is any help to you. Maybe you have more open doors than I do, but if you're serious about considering other engines to switch to, maybe Titan and Castle are a starting point.

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You can code the "old-fashioned way" with Unreal. Blueprint visual scripting is just one of the options you have.

Here's the documentation for programming with C++ in UE 4.

And here's an example .

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You want to make income from a game? Why does it have to be 3D?    You could save each frame of a 3D animation as a sprite sheet and display it in a 2D manner, using blitting to display it quickly.  Or perhaps your art could be displayed isometrically,  which would also allow you to work as if it's 2D.
Then you could use just javascript and html 2D canvas element, and monetizing a web game is easy; ads.

For the web the main thing needed for performance is to use a WebWorker to keep the main loop tick, so the WebWorker should dictate when an update or loop method gets called, and you would use just one displayed canvas element that is drawn to from an offscreen sprite sheet canvas or canvases.

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Thanks for this suggestion. If all my effort proves to fail and I have to give up entirely when my deadline hits, then I will look into this more. I am doubtful that it would be worth enough to earn my freedom, but it might still have some potential.

It needs to be 3D be as a 3D artist, my imagination is most active in three dimensions. Even when I was a child, when all the games I had ever played were 2D because 3D technology hadn't been invented, 3D games were all I could imagine. Recent advances in 3D are getting closer to making things I drempt up 30 years ago possible. In an environment where it is possible for an engine to match that format of its user's inspiration, it needs to.

Are you trolling?  This can't be a serious post.

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The real question you should ask yourself is do you want to be a game developer or an engine tester?

"Nearly all of them have terrible little quirks that disqualify them as valid options."  - This just comes off really ignorant.

"Does anybody know of one you could point me to that might solve this need?" - What need bro?  All you've said is you want an engine that's perfect.  I don't know what you expect, honestly.

"I'm running out of precious little time to get some work done, or else I'll have to abandon this pursuit all together." - You have precious little time yet you waste all of your time on small blemishes.  Have you ever completed a game?  Do you even know what you're actually looking for?  Do you think if you find the perfect engine you'll make the perfect game?  Indeed, you should look at abandoning this pursuit, because I think you're very confused on what game development entails.

You just come off super pretentious, and ignorant, bro.