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Bullwhip

Wrestle your way to love and glory! · By Major Minion

What did you think of the lockerroom puzzle?

A topic by Major Minion created Feb 15, 2024 Views: 1,979 Replies: 38
Viewing posts 1 to 14
(+4)

Hi! Did you try Bullwhip's chapter one? If so, thank you! Now I'm wondering about a specific part of it that I'd like some feedback on - the locker room puzzle.

I've always enjoyed puzzles, that's why I included it. I figured it would be a refreshing variation from simply reading. Also, it also plays a part in letting you get to know one of the husbandos, Emerson. He's not in the best place in his life right now, but still, he has a nourishing nature that cant' be denied. The more you fail at it finding your locker, the more engaged he'll be in your search, showing some of his true colors and being part in some (hopefully) amusing banter (failing might actually be more fun than succeeding here :).

But I digress. What did you think of the puzzle? Was it frustrating? Is it discouraging to need many attempts at it? Did it slow down your playthrough or feel like a needless and less enjoyable part?

I've been considering shortening it so that you get a max of five attempts. That would make it go much faster. Currently, you can fail a total of ten times before Emerson simply gives you the solution and playfully teases you a bit over the whole thing.

Do you have an opinion?

I do have an opinion, both good and bad (I mean, I have to. Been loving the art and loving the ideas. It's hard not to have opinions about something I'm enjoying seeing develop and made. Haha!)

The positives I noticed it, while it was frustrating to figure out a bit, it was also intriguing me to see the big wrestler showing expression as you go on. Like I'm already getting to know them without much interactions or dialogue. And I think the key point is that. The way you introduce the character to the point, frustration is gone. I'm going to keep exploring and seeing where this goes until I figure it out. I want to say it in full detail, but if I do, might ruin the experience if others learn about it without playing the game so... I think I rather say that detail in private to avoid anyone coming here getting spoiled.

The bad I have noticed is, people are used to wanting to succeed. And this isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's because they don't want to miss out details if something happens on the first try or any additional information that may be hidden based on record time or attempts among other things. But I honestly think the positives, at least in my opinion, overshadows the bad. This is really interesting and I wouldn't mind more puzzles like this. But there is one more bad thing too. And that would be we have the ability to go back in case we missed details instead of a log. Nothing is stopping from people failing, go back, try another one, and not accept getting something incorrect. And I'm honestly hoping people do not do so because, I kind of like how this was set up. If you get my drift.

Overall, I enjoyed the puzzle very much once I got the hint of what was going on and frustration was just gone. I was having fun with it and Emerson.

(1 edit) (+1)

Thanks for such thought through feedback! Yes, precisely. People are both used to, and expect to/want to succeed in VNs, whether it means making the "right" choices to get the story you want or if it's getting a puzzle right at the first try. I guess they are used to being rewarded when things go flawlessly. I'm like that myself, I want to see what happens when you do everything "optimally". So, how to make people be comfortable and even enjoy not finding the way immediately...? Maybe I could add some sort of hint in advance... I'm glad you found that the interaction with Emerson took away some frustration with the puzzle, hopefully others do too - if they lean into and enjoy letting themselves accept his help rather than figuring it out themselves.

(2 edits) (+1)

In my personal opinion, I really like the puzzle. It was easy for me to figure out the first try probably because I love puzzles. I saw that you planned to add hints in advance for the puzzle. While I think it would be a great idea, I do wish it would be an optional thing where people can choose to get the said hints or not if there would be more puzzles in the future. I like puzzles, but I also want to enjoy the puzzles without feeling they're too easy due to the hints or too hard due to no hints.

This is the last kind of feedback I thought I'd get! It's too easy, you brainiac?! :D Okay, thank you, that's noted. Not too easy and not too hard is a balancing act, but guess I'll just do my best with it. I probably won't add hints in advance, but maybe I'll add a comment from coach saying that "if you can't find it, I'm sure someone will help you with it". That way, the player gets a hint that it's a challenging puzzle, and that help will be coming if you need it :)

Created the account Just for this!


So... I dont like puzzles at all. I would not say, however, this particular one breaks the pace since It is in the beggining.


BUT

I dont like being forced to do It ):

The art, ambience and ALL are so enthrawlling and fresh and desireable. I wish i could backtrack so i dont Go in so blindly (im still on the puzzle and have no Idea what im doing. This IS How i found this post ha-ha)


Someone help? Please? Going offtopic, i know.


I personally wouldnt mind the puzzle If i could Just Skip It or find the solution somewhere. So... This is a polite to say that i dont like It, but im aware others might. Im in for the Ride :D

Thanks for the feedback, even though you're not a big fan of puzzles. This one I agree is can be confusing, and that's why I made the post, I wanted to know if people were getting stuck on it or if it detracted from their enjoyment of chapter one.

The thing about it is that each time you pick a wrong locker, your potential husbando Emerson will start helping more and more. And this is my opinion, but that is a fun way to do it. Not succeeding has no negative consequence - on the contrary, you get more interaction with Emerson, and despite him being on the down right now, when he gets to help out, his naturally caring disposition gets to shine through. You'll see a bit of his true self, and there's some playful banter. So, in your case my advice would be: Don't feel like it means anything to get the locker right. Enjoy receiving help from a charming dragon?

Or if you want the solution, send me a DM on FA or Twitter, and I will tell you where I don't spoil it for anyone else :)

thanks! Yeah, i got It both ways:  untill Emerson basicaly Tells you and Frist off. Its a Nice mechanic. Just finished the corrente build. I Will say, this is more than awesome. Its hard to compare It to anything, só its awesome and unique!


I do want more tho. Looking forward to It.

I'm glad you're liking it so far and that you are enjoying the art. I agree - Kartos, Dave Canine and BitterStrawberries did a kickass job with it :)

now, Just between us here: I do Hope your group gets to finish this gorgeous project.

You know.... The overwhelming majority of fvns wont be completed. Like... At all. There are a few exceptions due to Scope being large (not mentioning names on the fórum, but we can talk privately If youd like) so It could take half a decade, but most of them lose steam, suffer from feature creep or both.


Im aware this went way offtopic. But It goes to show, at least in my humble opinion, that your project can be the next best thing on the genre. Ill wait the story to get more "body" untill i write a Very lenghy Review.


Xoxo

Yep, I've read many VNs and I see that many are abandoned in development. They take a lot of time, and it's easy to underestimate how friggin much work they are. Feature creep is a real danger - I've added a lot of stuff that wasn't intended in the start. Luckily, I've also cut quite a few too that I don't feel add enough value. Galleries and such, I would not spend much time on them as a player myself, so I think people are fine without them. But yeah, I'll keep chipping away at my project :)

amazing!


Good editing skills are major here.

(+2)

Honestly, I loved the puzzle haha!  I failed about 3 times trying to figure it out but because of how Emerson reacted every time I failed, I never felt like it was a bad thing.  It was more engaging and it felt more like I was playing a game vs reading a VN.  The uniqueness of this VN I think comes from the fact that Chapter 1 felt so interactive.  I liked that the puzzle wasn't too easy and actually required you to think and the hints weren't super obvious either.  Just enough to give you a little push in figuring it out.  

(+1)

I'm glad you liked the puzzle and the interaction with Emerson. If you managed to get it in 4 attempts, I'd say that's fairly good! I'm glad you felt that the difficulty level was about right, and that you think the VN so far is unique and interactive :)

(2 edits) (+1)

The puzzle was good enough that I borrowed it for use in a tabletop roleplaying session a couple weeks later. It took 3 me tries to get the right solution. I thought it was paced well.

I would appreciate more puzzles like this in more VNs. (I’m a huge fan of the Zero Escape series, for example.) For me it provides some more stimulation than just the reading does.

However, my reading goals are different than others. Many people read for escapism, not to do work. So I think the best way to accommodate readers who may dislike these puzzles is to have a toggle in the options page with these options:

  1. Never skip puzzles
  2. Always skip puzzles
  3. Ask me for each puzzle

I would make 1 the default, since you crafted the puzzles and you want people to try them, but tell them once before the first puzzle that this option exists if they want to change it.

If somebody skips the puzzle, one dialog box can explain that the MC solved it and then move on.

Oh, nice, I'm always looking for puzzles to add to my own D&D campaigns, so if I helped with that, I'm glad! :) Being able to skip puzzles could be a good option to go with - mostly if I add more of them. Maybe the simplest would simply to make a button that appears when there's a quiz which lets you skip it if it's really not your thing. Thanks for the tip! :)

Honestly at first glance I didnt realize that the puzzle had any relevancy or that the dialogue would change depending on how fast you discover it, so I kept failling on purpose to reenact a himbo anyways. Even if I knew the answer before hints anyways. Thats when I realized that the puzzle made perfect sense and had a not so impactful differance overall, made it neat nonetheless to keep going back and check possibilities.

But something that is odd, is that when clicking on a locker segment... you are stuck. There is no option to go back and choose another one. You cant use "back" ui either. Besides the design, I realized that it adds nice flavor and interaction compared to pure text, like in other VNs.

(1 edit)

Then you did exactly what I hoped some will - just be a himbo and let Emerson have fun with you over it.  Besides, the protagonist manages to poke some fun back at him :) Hmm, so the rollback is somehow disabled when you select lockers? It's not supposed to be, but I too find that sometimes it seems like Ren'Py decides that you've come to a point where it doesn't roll back. Mostly, I think it's been possible for me to roll back locker selections - I did that a LOT while testing it :)

I liked the puzzle. Like you said, it's a nice way to break up some of the reading. I almost got it on my first try but needed a few hints for the 12 part. I'm also a person who likes puzzles though so I may be a bit biased lol. All in all though I wouldn't mind there possibly being more puzzles in the future.

(+1)

You figured it out that fast? Well done! I'm glad you thought it was an all right variation to include in the game, thanks for the feedback! :)

(1 edit)

...If I have any complaints 'bout the puzzle, it is that I am more annoyed that I had to go back to fail the puzzle then I am in getting it right on my first read through in order to see the other dialogue that others, above, mentioned, which led me to engage in a bunch of save scumming in order to evaluate however many times one should intentionally fail the puzzle in order to get the best possible dialogue with one of the main interests (who I very much intend to pursue) in this VN, only to find it even more confuzzling since it has no real impact on the VN for those who don't fail given this dialogue of getting to know this character better is truly inconsequential to the rest of the VN as nothing more than needless flavour text that's there to make things interesting for those who fail, initially (but at least I can say I now know 101 through 999 give the same reaction) 😑

(1 edit)

Noo, good Sir, you went that thoroughly to business at it? Ahh, I well understand your frustration, then. Yeah, your chapter 1 choices do not make a difference to how much Emerson likes you. I didn't want to make it depend on a puzzle. It felt wrong to punish someone for not getting it perfectly, and it also felt wrong to punish players who pride themselves in getting everything right. And besides, although Emerson will tease you if you fail a lot, he's really not a judgmental person. So, for the future, you can trust that he'll separate silly, unimportant things from those that matter.

...and trying out 101-999 influencers sounds like a torment. Sorry, you're likely the only one who knows exactly where the different dialogue points kick in now! :/

(+1)

It pisses me off how terrible I am with puzzles. LMAO
I thought I had it, but I guess I didn't. I still enjoyed it, though! I want more like these.

(+2)

Ahh, but it wasn't easy in my mind. I would not have gotten it myself - at least not without the hint about which direction to count from. But then again, "failing" does yield the most amusing interaction with Emerson, so it's not any kind of real loss. You awaken his nurturing nature and have some playful banter with him instead of displaying sheer locker picking brilliance. Embrace the teamwork instead! :D

I figured it out pretty quick, but one thing confused me: it counted the lockers from right to left, instead of left to right, so I clicked the wrong one the first time. I'm used to lockers going from left to right, or well. Downward, back to the top one to the left downward again, so when I failed because I hit B1 instead of B12 it was minorly annoying. Still got a bit of fun dialogue out of it.

Yep, that was the main twist. The tiny hint is the circle arrow symbol on the key tag, but it was not a hint that was obvious. I think most players thought like you and possibly felt that the direction was not intuitive. But hey, that's one of the thing the wrestling federation did to make them more confusing to people who have not been invited to the lockerroom. Don't want them stealing all your jocks, after all! :)

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My honest opinion? This isn't a puzzle! There is one key piece of information that is missing that means you're set up to fail. I am definitely in the "first try" camp when it comes to these games so I'm sorry to say that this really put a damper on what was otherwise a really interesting game! 

I literally had to look at this conversation feed to get a hint rather than wait for the dragon to help me, and when I did see the hint it frankly hurt my brain. If you are going to continue with puzzles, you need to make sure that you are given enough information from the start so that the chance for a first try is possible. Like I would have gotten this correct on the first try if there wasn't a "secret rule" to this puzzle. I dunno, it just felt a little "moon logic" to me.

I see, thank you for the input! There is a hint - although not too easy to catch. It's the direction arrow on the key tag. It indicates which direction to count from, though it doesn't tell you to go from right to left when counting lockers too. Sorry your experience wasn't a good one!

(-1)

So I see something like this, and my first thought is "Ah, so we're supposed to figure it out by context" and proceed to rewind and try it again and again because apparently I missed something obvious and it just leaves me feeling dumber and dumber as I continue to get it wrong.  I guess apparently Emerson is supposed to help you, but given that the character wasn't given an option to ASK instead of just continually getting it wrong, that never even crossed my mind.  An option to do the reasonable thing and ask the other person in the room would have been nice, and also allows people that don't like puzzles to skip it.

I was left frustrated enough to go look at the chat to see if I was alone just to find this.  I'm still rather frustrated, to be honest.  I was originally so pleased that there was more intro (I guess I joined in the last one that skipped things) but now, I'll be setting this down and coming back to it later.

Hey, Konrankemono! Thank you for your honest feedback! I have had a few players be frustrated with this. I will find a solution and implement it in my next version that hopefully adresses this.

and thanks for replying!

Admittedly I also really wasn't in the mindset for doing a puzzle.  When I sit down to play a VN I'm looking forward to character exploration and plot.  I have to be in the right mood for puzzles in the first place, otherwise they just feel like they're getting in the way of the content I actually want.

All right. Well, you're not the only one who's felt like skipping the puzzle, so I'll make those brain cells work a bit and see if I can find a smooth solution where you can either skip it or just improve the hints a bit so that it doesn't feel impossible.

Well, finally got the right positive mindset to come back and get that puzzle over with...so my very first guess that first time I suppose would have been 3B01?  Like I had every single detail figured out from the get-go apparently...except I never for the life of me would have counted right to left for the lockers, even acknowledging that I had technically gone from right to left to get to that set of lockers in the first place.  In fact all of my guesses after that were just trying different places to start counting for the "3" because I had been certain on what B and 12 would mean.

Is that actually how locker rooms normally work or something?  The only one I've ever used was at work and the lockers aren't labeled at all (or assigned).

No, normally lockers would be labeled. In this case, the federation made a backwards twist just so that overly enthusiastic fans would have trouble locating the lockers of their favorite wrestlers to steal souvenirs from them. The part where having to count lockers backwards is the one that most get stuck on. I could add a hint on the key tag so that there's a better way to know. Currently, you just have to work out that since you count segments backward, that's the way to go for the lockers too, but it's not obvious. A backwards arrow along with the locker number could help, right? I'd also add an early hint before the puzzle starts saying something about "the locker solution being rather backwards".

Maybe if there was just one locker that WAS labeled?  Like the very first locker when you enter or something.

Hmm. It would be possible to add some scribble on a couple of lockers, maybe one per segment. The scribble could be the last number in the tag code. That would be a hint that the lockers also need to be counted backward...

Feasible even, that somebody kept forgetting which locker was theirs and doodled either the code for their locker or some other hint on it.  Actually, some scribbles could even be hints about the character a locker belongs to instead of hints for the puzzle, make people want to take a look at them regardless.  Just a fun idea!

I really enjoyed the puzzle being included. I understood the arrow was showing me that I had to go anti-clockwise in the room, but on my first try I counted the lockers from left to right even having understood the anti-clockwise clue. So I kept trying and on my third time I got the answer.

What I actually loved about it was that the character wasn't necessarily supposed to know the answer so it felt right that I had to experiment with a few different lockers before I got it. I enjoyed the continuation of the story and the small reactions when I was getting the wrong locker and the eventual pat on the back when I got it right. I assumed Emerson would eventually tell you which locker was yours and the story would have continued so the puzzle wasn't a dead end if you couldn't solve it.

Great work, I really enjoyed this chapter!

Good job getting the arrow meaning! And yes, I kind of blindsided you there by letting it apply also to the direction for the locker counting. A low blow as we'd say in the world of wrestling... Some have felt like I want my players to fail and... I kind of do? Not to make them feel miserable, but to let them know Emerson more. I want everyone to enjoy themselves with it. In any case, congrats on getting it right! :)