i gave it a go for the first time today, it took me about 40mins to complete the tutorial campaign. i checked out the first two missions of the slow-day campaign, but that looked like it was only target practice so i passed on that
i'm not very good with real-time strategy games but i think i did ok in here. either way, keep that in mind when viewing my feedback since i don't think im your target audience
excellent setting. i love modern/urban high fantasy.
solid execution of gameplay. things move fast, make sense and are easily understandable and readable. i wasn't confused by an action i did or by the enemy reaction. i did however have an issue with chaining commands.
from the tutorial text, it seems like it SHOULD be possible to have team 2 execute an action when team 1 finishes (ie: red team opens door and throws flashbang, blue team enters) or even both teams simultaneously do an action (i assume this was the intended way to go about the first room of the first real mission, since it has two doors and you have two teams). i had no idea how to get this working properly, though.
what ended up happening was i would just use them as one unit instead and give them one big action chain (breach with c2 then flashbang then enter then clear). again it's clear to me that this is the incorrect way to play this, but i couldn't figure out how to do it otherwise. there was a key prompt (X/Y ?) but i didnt accomplish anything with that (or i wasnt told that i did?). this is perhaps the one step where hand holding would be beneficial. something simple like "team goes in when player's flashbang explodes" would be really great to be tutorialized better. again, this isn't my genre in any way so perhaps i'm being a complete brainlet, but it really does feel like there is a methodology that i'm missing and that's not clearly explained.
one issue i had near the end of that level was with flashbangs. two last guys are hiding in a small room near the end. my guy has a flashbang and i'm out, so i get him to throw one, with my mouse cursor in the room. he throws it in the direction of the mouse, but theres a wall there, so he throws it at my feet. it would be nice if the AI was smart enough to interpret my command and throw it inside the room instead of towards the mouse
anyway, i was able to beat that mission with no casualties and some arrests (770 points out of 1000 or something like that, a solid C+)
some other things i would consider is having more detailed environments. plain brown rooms with doors isnt that interesting. in a game like this where you're bringing order to chaos, it would be fun to see a bit of the chaos the player causes. a c2 charge blowing away debris, or a stack of nearby office paper, or who knows what else might be really fun to see. since you're in a fantasy/urban setting, who knows what an office wizard might have on his desk that gets shoved away by a satchel charge exploding nearby.
i also saw some door comments. i'm playing on 51.1-5, which to me had clear door movement indicators. i had no issues with doors, except that theyre super wide (but i guess im a gobbo so it's proportional?)
either way, it was a lot of fun. i'm sure people who enjoy real time tactics game would have a blast with this.
My tutorial is better than what I had last time but it still fails to explain some things.
For example use -> nade does make the AI aim at the cursor, it's meant to have them bounce nades off wall or be precise with their throw While Move -> and use -> nade is how you get squadmates to reposition before throwing one.
Cryptic, I know, I need to explain things better.
But thanks for the feedback and I'm glad you had fun.
Hi, interesting concept! I've been meaning to play this since the last DD, now I finally have.
First thing first, walking around, hovering your cursor and entering rooms feels pretty cool, I liked that.
I had a bit of a struggle with the gameplay. I'm not good with strategy games or games with complex input, so that probably explains it, but it was exhausing for me to hold right clicking while clicking through so many options. Again, personal bias, take it with a grain of salt.
I felt like in general the only viable strategy to breach a place was to have a guy throw a stun grenade, and then enter yourself and shoot the barricade guys from behind. I don't know why would do anything different, but I couldn't really test that theory since there's only one real level where you have your team.
Also, doors really bothered me, I never knew where they were going to open, how many kicks it would take to break them, or at what exact range I could open them.
Mmm that's pretty much it I think. Here's a video of me playing:
Thanks for the feedback, I definitely need to make it clearer in which direction the doors open, I'll get around to it asap.
Also yeah, stun grenades are OP right now, it's just too early for balance, hopefully different types of enemies, objectives, and the opportunity cost of slotting in stun nades instead of something else will make them less strong later on. The command UI isn't the best, I agree, people familiar with games like Rainbow six and SWAT seem to like it fine but I do want to try and improve it as much as possible.
Again, thanks for playing, gameplay videos are always incredibly valuable for feedback.
The music is pretty good. The camera is a bit too slick it moves around a bit too much. I don't know if the camera is always centered over the point of aim or something, but if you could decouple them so that the point of aim could still be flicked around really fast but the camera accelerated and slowed down to keep with it might be a bit better to smooth it out, just look how much the on screen position of your chara jiggles about when rapidly aiming at different spots on the level for what I mean. I wonder how it'd look and feel if the rotation's pivot point was the charas on screen location so they didn't move in screen X/Y coordinates when the camera rotates? Might not be possible because you can look further to your left or right depending on where the mouse is, but I just feel that its a bit too jittery the way it is now.
for some reason my l in health was grey instead of white?
So what I'm showing here (drew mouse cursor back in because screen shot removed it) is that your mousewheel to partial open the door loses focus on the door unless you chase it with the mouse. It'd be nicer if the entire "door sweep" walkway area was a mouse wheel scroll receptacle that gave it to the door instead of cursor having to be over the thin door sprite while it moves for the input to keep moving the door.
I don't remember if this is how it was last time, but the game is behind the taskbar in borderless mode. When restarting the game, the window is centered on the bottom right quadrant of the screen. Enabling borderless mode should automatically set the resolution to the monitor's and make the window cover the whole screen instead of just hiding the borders.
The resolution doesn't take the window borders into account.
When maximizing the window and enabling borderless mode, the window is offset to the left by a few pixels so the left edge gets cut off while there's a gap on the right.
Why would I want to adjust my resolution pixel by pixel separately for X and Y? Just have a normal dropdown menu.
Make RMB go back in menus.
Your ammo should refill when the character puts in the new magazine, not when the animation ends. As it is now, kicking at the end of the reload animation forces you to redo the whole reload.
The loadout screen is clunky. Have the selection centered on the cursor, get rid of the "Accept" button, and make the info show up in a separate window by just hovering over the options.
You should be able to arrest stunned enemies.
Telling a squadmate to throw a grenade at a location should make him move into line of sight first instead of throwing it into a wall and hitting the whole team instead.
Opening the orders menu should pause the game.
Teammates should automatically arrest suspects if they're close and don't have anything else to do.
Add the order to arrest all suspects in a room.
Collision for suspects should be disabled as soon as you press the button to send them away.
Consider using letters instead of numbers for the orders to make it more consistent and easier to remember.
Dead enemies should be visible even if they're outside your field of view.
Add a cooldown for grenades so you can't throw two of them in half a second.
Add an order to make a squad move to a location and watch a direction.
The "move and hold" order doesn't seem to do anything.
Teammates should automatically take cover from grenades. Enemies, too, depending on the situation.
Add a preview for what route a squad will take to a location when giving orders, and put an icon at the target location after giving an order until it's executed.
Interactive tutorial is always nice. Feels like moving the mouse to select a squad order is too sensitive. It would also be nice if I could use the scroll for that. Starting a mission begins on the Options tab, I personally think it makes more sense for it to start on Briefing instead. I beat all the campaign missions without a fuss.
I try out the custom level mode. Not sure if intended, but I kinda like the feature to hold left/right click for selection, then being able to press the other click to do the alternate action. Only problem is if you want to do neither, since it seems you can't cancel the selection out right. Though I suppose you can use undo instead for that. Using middle click for adding doors is awkward, and the hotkey tooltip only works when hovering on its pivot point. On that topic, I think it would be helpful to highlight the pivot point at all times.
Deleting anything on top of a floor tile also deletes the floor. This may be useful sometimes, but would be a hassle while editing the internals of a building. It should really be an option that you check on/off. As I say that I realize checking off "Also add floor" stops that phenomenon. I guess that makes sense, though I think it would be nicer if it didn't delete the floor when you delete the object.
The WASD camera movements become impeded if you select any of the button options(that doesn't open a menu) under the tabs in the top right, since it takes focus. Goes away upon changing tab or opening a menu.
The idea of Wings for randomized mission design is pretty cool, as well as the amount of customization there seems to be.
I'm not very good at this. The waiting command tutorials are giving me problems. The AI to be precise, which has trouble with whatever I command it to do. Use a grenade in a precise trajectory? Completely missed most of the time and bounced back at themselves. Move and clear so I can get the stunned enemy from behind cover? Stays at the doorway and refuses to move. Fumbling can be fun, but I don't want to get through all the command menu sequence busy work each time. I'm probably doing it completely wrong and I'm confused by all the options that are given to me (which are essentialy the same but differ slightly, like throwing the grenade after moving into the room, throwing it after entering through the door, or just throwing the grenade myself).
I wish there was a separate ordering mode. Right now the game tries to combine top down shooter with squad based game at the same time, but I'm not sure if there is a need to do all that at the same time instead of having a toggle. That mode could show you all the useful stuff like team member color highlight and previewing given command paths like on some strategical miniature map. You would also have the left click and dragging back to your disposition to replace selection or movement command.
The screen shifting around so much while moving the cursor is not great for aiming, I had the same dilemma. This could be easily solved by the toggle too.
The command context menu is weird when trying to use it with a mouse. It doesn't react to mouse movement until some point and then it's oversensitive. I should be able to see the cursor when its open. It also sucks to hold right mouse button while doing all that.
It would have so much more potential and uniqueness by trying to fit SWAT into fantasy setting with knight order and magic than bringing fantasy races to a modern setting.
Thanks for the feedback, I understand that commanding your squad and playing at the same time isn't easy but it is mean to be a top-down shooter with a squad to back you up.
Unfortunately the squad AI isn't perfect, it definitely needs works.
The camera offset is necessary for longer-distances firefights, I could make it so the offset is less extreme normally and make it longer when walking or something like that, that could help with aiming.
I will experiment with it, thanks again for playing.
Really cool concept, liked the SWAT and the old R6 games and the modern-fantasy twist on it is definitely interesting. Played through the campaign and then messed around a bit in the contraband bust level.
- Movement and shooting is generally smooth and works well. One bug I found with the hit detection is that you are able to shoot through the "gaps" between two boxes even though they are next to each other with no visible gaps. - First tutorial should probably mention that you need to hover your cursor on what you need to interact instead of being next to them - at frist I tried to move to the door and press F with my cursor off in the distance before I realized I need to move it there as well. - Grenades with teammates are quite a risk since I was never sure which teammate will throw the nade, so most of the time it ended up landing at our feet. It doesn't seem to respect the wait command either, and they throw it the moment the command is executed regardless of wait signal, which gave me a bit of confusion at first in figuring out how the wait command should work. - Typo on Slow day briefing: "get warmed up while me I set up the killhouse" - While it makes sense for enemies in the tutorial to be always visible and in the custom level to respect the line of sight, the two scenarios are very different in how the game feels. First one is more tactical and more of a puzzle, while the LOS makes things a lot more hectic and chaotic - I noticed that in the first case I was a lot more slow and methodical while the second case I played it more like an action game. Not sure which direction you want to go, but something that keep in mind. - Even when the enemies are stunned teammates were very eager to fire immediately instead of forcing compliance on suspects. It was also odd that my only options with stunned enemies is to either shoot them dead or risk seeing if they surrender or not - would make sense if you could tie or disarm stunned enemies (and teammates could rush in to tie them up as well with a command) - Other than some door wonkiness, AI behaved mostly ok. Getting them into a specific positions within a room with quick command is tricky though, as it seems that "move here" refers to the room/general area rather than a position (which ties in to having to rely on them with grenades being difficult)
Overall a good start and looking forward to see how it'll develop.
Thanks for playing and thanks for the extensive feedback.
Grenades and squad commands in general will be a never ending battle to get right, yeah. I'm also not quite sure about the hinges on doors, AI behavior would get so much smoother if they could swing open both ways.
Regarding visible enemies I'm planning to add ways to get sight of them through doors and walls, both with future spells and tools like the optiwand from SWAT, hopefully that'll make regular levels feel less chaotic and more tactical.
The quick command on any valid room is a "move and clear" command, I'll change it to a "move quickly" command if it's the same room the player character is in.
I'll get to work right away, thanks again for the feedback.
Comments
I played your game again. Here's a link to the whole DD51 folder:
https://mega.nz/folder/PYMBCI6A#kb__dlWiUsmt-zPha-iBtA
It's going to be up until DD52. We need female goblins ;^)
Thank you! Gameplay videos help a lot.
i gave it a go for the first time today, it took me about 40mins to complete the tutorial campaign. i checked out the first two missions of the slow-day campaign, but that looked like it was only target practice so i passed on that
i'm not very good with real-time strategy games but i think i did ok in here. either way, keep that in mind when viewing my feedback since i don't think im your target audience
excellent setting. i love modern/urban high fantasy.
solid execution of gameplay. things move fast, make sense and are easily understandable and readable. i wasn't confused by an action i did or by the enemy reaction. i did however have an issue with chaining commands.
from the tutorial text, it seems like it SHOULD be possible to have team 2 execute an action when team 1 finishes (ie: red team opens door and throws flashbang, blue team enters) or even both teams simultaneously do an action (i assume this was the intended way to go about the first room of the first real mission, since it has two doors and you have two teams). i had no idea how to get this working properly, though.
what ended up happening was i would just use them as one unit instead and give them one big action chain (breach with c2 then flashbang then enter then clear). again it's clear to me that this is the incorrect way to play this, but i couldn't figure out how to do it otherwise. there was a key prompt (X/Y ?) but i didnt accomplish anything with that (or i wasnt told that i did?). this is perhaps the one step where hand holding would be beneficial. something simple like "team goes in when player's flashbang explodes" would be really great to be tutorialized better. again, this isn't my genre in any way so perhaps i'm being a complete brainlet, but it really does feel like there is a methodology that i'm missing and that's not clearly explained.
one issue i had near the end of that level was with flashbangs. two last guys are hiding in a small room near the end. my guy has a flashbang and i'm out, so i get him to throw one, with my mouse cursor in the room. he throws it in the direction of the mouse, but theres a wall there, so he throws it at my feet. it would be nice if the AI was smart enough to interpret my command and throw it inside the room instead of towards the mouse
anyway, i was able to beat that mission with no casualties and some arrests (770 points out of 1000 or something like that, a solid C+)
some other things i would consider is having more detailed environments. plain brown rooms with doors isnt that interesting. in a game like this where you're bringing order to chaos, it would be fun to see a bit of the chaos the player causes. a c2 charge blowing away debris, or a stack of nearby office paper, or who knows what else might be really fun to see. since you're in a fantasy/urban setting, who knows what an office wizard might have on his desk that gets shoved away by a satchel charge exploding nearby.
i also saw some door comments. i'm playing on 51.1-5, which to me had clear door movement indicators. i had no issues with doors, except that theyre super wide (but i guess im a gobbo so it's proportional?)
either way, it was a lot of fun. i'm sure people who enjoy real time tactics game would have a blast with this.
Thanks for playing and thanks for the effort!
My tutorial is better than what I had last time but it still fails to explain some things.
For example use -> nade does make the AI aim at the cursor, it's meant to have them bounce nades off wall or be precise with their throw
While Move -> and use -> nade is how you get squadmates to reposition before throwing one.
Cryptic, I know, I need to explain things better.
But thanks for the feedback and I'm glad you had fun.
Hi, interesting concept! I've been meaning to play this since the last DD, now I finally have.
First thing first, walking around, hovering your cursor and entering rooms feels pretty cool, I liked that.
I had a bit of a struggle with the gameplay. I'm not good with strategy games or games with complex input, so that probably explains it, but it was exhausing for me to hold right clicking while clicking through so many options. Again, personal bias, take it with a grain of salt.
I felt like in general the only viable strategy to breach a place was to have a guy throw a stun grenade, and then enter yourself and shoot the barricade guys from behind. I don't know why would do anything different, but I couldn't really test that theory since there's only one real level where you have your team.
Also, doors really bothered me, I never knew where they were going to open, how many kicks it would take to break them, or at what exact range I could open them.
Mmm that's pretty much it I think. Here's a video of me playing:
Thanks for the feedback, I definitely need to make it clearer in which direction the doors open, I'll get around to it asap.
Also yeah, stun grenades are OP right now, it's just too early for balance, hopefully different types of enemies, objectives, and the opportunity cost of slotting in stun nades instead of something else will make them less strong later on.
The command UI isn't the best, I agree, people familiar with games like Rainbow six and SWAT seem to like it fine but I do want to try and improve it as much as possible.
Again, thanks for playing, gameplay videos are always incredibly valuable for feedback.
its like meteor crossed with rainbow six. nice.
The music is pretty good. The camera is a bit too slick it moves around a bit too much. I don't know if the camera is always centered over the point of aim or something, but if you could decouple them so that the point of aim could still be flicked around really fast but the camera accelerated and slowed down to keep with it might be a bit better to smooth it out, just look how much the on screen position of your chara jiggles about when rapidly aiming at different spots on the level for what I mean. I wonder how it'd look and feel if the rotation's pivot point was the charas on screen location so they didn't move in screen X/Y coordinates when the camera rotates? Might not be possible because you can look further to your left or right depending on where the mouse is, but I just feel that its a bit too jittery the way it is now.
for some reason my l in health was grey instead of white?
So what I'm showing here (drew mouse cursor back in because screen shot removed it) is that your mousewheel to partial open the door loses focus on the door unless you chase it with the mouse. It'd be nicer if the entire "door sweep" walkway area was a mouse wheel scroll receptacle that gave it to the door instead of cursor having to be over the thin door sprite while it moves for the input to keep moving the door.
Thanks for the feedback, the camera offset and the door interaction areas are something that I'll have to experiment with to fine tune.
Is the grey l something that always happens or one-off thing?
Some of these points are just my game doing a bad job of explaining things but others are good ideas, thanks for the feedback.
Notes as I play:
Interactive tutorial is always nice. Feels like moving the mouse to select a squad order is too sensitive. It would also be nice if I could use the scroll for that. Starting a mission begins on the Options tab, I personally think it makes more sense for it to start on Briefing instead. I beat all the campaign missions without a fuss.
I try out the custom level mode. Not sure if intended, but I kinda like the feature to hold left/right click for selection, then being able to press the other click to do the alternate action. Only problem is if you want to do neither, since it seems you can't cancel the selection out right. Though I suppose you can use undo instead for that. Using middle click for adding doors is awkward, and the hotkey tooltip only works when hovering on its pivot point. On that topic, I think it would be helpful to highlight the pivot point at all times.
Deleting anything on top of a floor tile also deletes the floor. This may be useful sometimes, but would be a hassle while editing the internals of a building. It should really be an option that you check on/off. As I say that I realize checking off "Also add floor" stops that phenomenon. I guess that makes sense, though I think it would be nicer if it didn't delete the floor when you delete the object.
The WASD camera movements become impeded if you select any of the button options(that doesn't open a menu) under the tabs in the top right, since it takes focus. Goes away upon changing tab or opening a menu.
The idea of Wings for randomized mission design is pretty cool, as well as the amount of customization there seems to be.
Thanks for the feedback, the editor didn't get tested much so those suggestions you gave are really helpful, I'll implement them asap.
I'm not very good at this. The waiting command tutorials are giving me problems. The AI to be precise, which has trouble with whatever I command it to do. Use a grenade in a precise trajectory? Completely missed most of the time and bounced back at themselves. Move and clear so I can get the stunned enemy from behind cover? Stays at the doorway and refuses to move. Fumbling can be fun, but I don't want to get through all the command menu sequence busy work each time. I'm probably doing it completely wrong and I'm confused by all the options that are given to me (which are essentialy the same but differ slightly, like throwing the grenade after moving into the room, throwing it after entering through the door, or just throwing the grenade myself).
I wish there was a separate ordering mode. Right now the game tries to combine top down shooter with squad based game at the same time, but I'm not sure if there is a need to do all that at the same time instead of having a toggle. That mode could show you all the useful stuff like team member color highlight and previewing given command paths like on some strategical miniature map. You would also have the left click and dragging back to your disposition to replace selection or movement command.
The screen shifting around so much while moving the cursor is not great for aiming, I had the same dilemma. This could be easily solved by the toggle too.
The command context menu is weird when trying to use it with a mouse. It doesn't react to mouse movement until some point and then it's oversensitive. I should be able to see the cursor when its open. It also sucks to hold right mouse button while doing all that.
It would have so much more potential and uniqueness by trying to fit SWAT into fantasy setting with knight order and magic than bringing fantasy races to a modern setting.
Thanks for the feedback, I understand that commanding your squad and playing at the same time isn't easy but it is mean to be a top-down shooter with a squad to back you up.
Unfortunately the squad AI isn't perfect, it definitely needs works.
The camera offset is necessary for longer-distances firefights, I could make it so the offset is less extreme normally and make it longer when walking or something like that, that could help with aiming.
I will experiment with it, thanks again for playing.
Really cool concept, liked the SWAT and the old R6 games and the modern-fantasy twist on it is definitely interesting. Played through the campaign and then messed around a bit in the contraband bust level.
- Movement and shooting is generally smooth and works well. One bug I found with the hit detection is that you are able to shoot through the "gaps" between two boxes even though they are next to each other with no visible gaps.
- First tutorial should probably mention that you need to hover your cursor on what you need to interact instead of being next to them - at frist I tried to move to the door and press F with my cursor off in the distance before I realized I need to move it there as well.
- Grenades with teammates are quite a risk since I was never sure which teammate will throw the nade, so most of the time it ended up landing at our feet. It doesn't seem to respect the wait command either, and they throw it the moment the command is executed regardless of wait signal, which gave me a bit of confusion at first in figuring out how the wait command should work.
- Typo on Slow day briefing: "get warmed up while me I set up the killhouse"
- While it makes sense for enemies in the tutorial to be always visible and in the custom level to respect the line of sight, the two scenarios are very different in how the game feels. First one is more tactical and more of a puzzle, while the LOS makes things a lot more hectic and chaotic - I noticed that in the first case I was a lot more slow and methodical while the second case I played it more like an action game. Not sure which direction you want to go, but something that keep in mind.
- Even when the enemies are stunned teammates were very eager to fire immediately instead of forcing compliance on suspects. It was also odd that my only options with stunned enemies is to either shoot them dead or risk seeing if they surrender or not - would make sense if you could tie or disarm stunned enemies (and teammates could rush in to tie them up as well with a command)
- Other than some door wonkiness, AI behaved mostly ok. Getting them into a specific positions within a room with quick command is tricky though, as it seems that "move here" refers to the room/general area rather than a position (which ties in to having to rely on them with grenades being difficult)
Overall a good start and looking forward to see how it'll develop.
Thanks for playing and thanks for the extensive feedback.
Grenades and squad commands in general will be a never ending battle to get right, yeah. I'm also not quite sure about the hinges on doors, AI behavior would get so much smoother if they could swing open both ways.
Regarding visible enemies I'm planning to add ways to get sight of them through doors and walls, both with future spells and tools like the optiwand from SWAT, hopefully that'll make regular levels feel less chaotic and more tactical.
The quick command on any valid room is a "move and clear" command, I'll change it to a "move quickly" command if it's the same room the player character is in.
I'll get to work right away, thanks again for the feedback.