I'm super late and I'm far too inexperienced at this genre to properly give feedback, but I still wanted to comment that the game is coming along great and it runs way better than the last time I played.
I'm also going to steal your method of blocking off the later levels for next DD.
I used wands on the first Golden Goblin and can confirm that it works and does not bug out.
I created this very strong ring using the second Golden Goblin. But, now that I check it many levels later, is it bugged? It seems to increase strength and not all stats.
Sometimes my equipment falls off due to taking off or changing other equipment. Could that have something to do with it? Or maybe that the ring was created by the Golden Goblin?
Poison on the player character does not appear to stack, unless I am mistaken. Is that on purpose?
You wrote somewhere that you intended to make the Breeding Grounds more open. I do not believe that is necessary, or at least, you could keep one of those levels like it currently is and then change the other one. More traps, enemy variety? For the second level, playing into the "breeding", have temporary enemies spawn? Like, giving an enemy a summon spell like the snake summon spell the player has? But that might run counter to the player's expectation and possibly also the game design and game balance.
Why do I have 52 intelligence? I do not believe my items should add up to that. Is it a bug? I did put a lot of points into intelligence, but I am playing on hard mode, and I have unspent ability points.
Wait, I just switched around a lot of gear to try to figure out what the source of the intelligence was, and now I am at 60 intelligence with the same gear as before.
I think I figured out how. Changes to secondary weapon and shield, stats not sufficient and drops including shield, switch back, pick up equipment.
One way to robustly fix this in programming might be to not directly mutate the "final" variables and try to keep them accurate always, but instead just store all "sources" of attributes. And then, whenever equipment changes for whatever reason, you recalculate the final attribute value from all sources. It can be a bit finicky, but should possibly be much more robust than straight-up mutation and a better trade-off in the code, and the computational cost should be a non-issue since it is just the main character and very few equipment slots and sources. That might fix a number of different bugs related to stats - the ring I forged with the Golden Goblin also appeared buggy in regards to stats. In some ways inspired by "reactive" programming, or like Excel cells, or "unidirectional data flow", but just limited to stats. It will likely take you time to implement that subsystem and replace the current apparent direct-mutation-bookkeeping method you use.
I do not know whether my iron man hard mode run is now ruined, because having 108 intelligence is over-powered. At least "intelligence" first and foremost affects the ability to read books.
Wait, my maximum mana is also affected. I have 195 mana. That must be from the paladin's shield, since the "mind" ability is what gives extra maximum mana.
I will end my run and claim that I lost due to being completely over-powered due to unintentional exploit-usage due to bugs.
I still have not completed an iron man hard mode run. Much sadness.
Interesting, I thought i fixed this. I'll give it a check tomorrow and see what's going on. thank you for the feedback!
there's also a bug in this version that i didn't release a fix for - the last level doesn't allow saving. oops. you can rest easy and wait until DD52 should you want to do a *fair* ironman run.
any way you can send me the save file for this? i tried to replicate it internally with no success - item stats are modified normally and there's no issue
Sorry, I do not wish to send the save file, for different reasons.
Also, in case there is any confusion, I am describing two bugs, and they appear unrelated, at least the bugs can be reproduced on my system without the other bug's items being involved. I have now spent some more time investigating the bugs:
Bug 1: Is with the ring crafted by a Golden Goblin, where the stat boosts it gives are apparently bugged. I tested it a bit more, and it appears that it might be the combination of "+2 to Strength" and "All Stats Increased by 3" that bugs out. The ring, at least on the Stats Page UI, gives +5 Strength, and no other Stat increases, even though according to its description it should give +5 Strength and +3 all other Stats. I have isolated the bug to just the ring by having no other items equipped on the character than that Golden Goblin-crafted ring.
Bug 2: Is with the unique shield "Guiding Eyes" that the wounded paladin left behind as well as a wand crafted by another Golden Goblin, and quickswapping. The wand has a number of different properties, including +4 Constitution and "Increases Mana by 5". My character has 12 base Constitution, so if the wand is not held, the shield cannot be held, since the shield Guiding Eyes in this run requires 14 Constitution. I have isolated the bug to just those two items by removing all other gear. I also had a torso-body-armor depend on the extra Constitution from the wand, but I tried with just that torso-body-armor and the wand, and I could not replicate the bug. I have also isolated the bug to quickswapping, by either clicking in the inventory on the "II" button or by using the quickswap hotkey, and having the shield Guiding Eyes fall off due to the wand no longer being present and not giving its Constitution bonus. I can not replicate the bug by manually clicking on the wand to remove it and holding it in my cursor and that way making the shield drop due to not having sufficient Constitution, it is only by quickswapping that it occurs. The bug gives increases not just to Mana and Intelligence, but also Armor and Defense, the properties that the Guiding Eyes shield gives in this run (apart from the "15% for Damage Absorbed by Mana" property, but I can not see the effects of that from the Stats Page UI). Each time that the quickswapping is done, the properties are increased, and after having been done many times, giving very high values of Intelligence, Mana, Armor and Defense.What is important to note is that when I load the save again (for instance by quitting to the menu and loading the Iron man save again), the character does not keep the extra Intelligence stat, mana, armor and defense, but the bug can still be replicated by doing the quickswapping again. I do not have any other shield that requires Constitution to be held, so I do not know whether the bug can be isolated to the unique shield Guiding Eyes or if it is a general bug involving left-hand (or shield in case idol items do not bug out?) equipment.
Is there anything locally you might want me to do, that does not include sending the save file?
that's fine if you don't want to share the savefile. let me know if it's something on the game's end that's influencing this decision, since i don't want players to feel uncomfortable about this if possible.
i quickly looked at bug 2 and was able to replicate it. i think i resolved it, but requirements and item swapping with +Stat items is messy since i foolishly made my "requirement check" function *always* check everything. in this case all that i needed to change was a single line of code so hopefully that fixed it. we'll see next time i put a build out.
i'll take a look at bug #1 now, which is less important since the current "demo" ends before the golden goblin anyway.
again, thank you for all your generous help in tracking down and helping solve these issues. i am sure you have greatly sped up my dev time, and i am very thankful for it.
let me know if it's something on the game's end that's influencing this decision, since i don't want players to feel uncomfortable about this if possible.
No, it is just me being careful in general, I try to be careful with demo day games, and honestly with software in general.
again, thank you for all your generous help in tracking down and helping solve these issues. i am sure you have greatly sped up my dev time, and i am very thankful for it.
Iron man + hard mode run. The Itch app is leading me to believe I am running ToK.22e, but I do not know whether I can trust it.
I could be wrong, but the Golden Goblin may be bugged with wands (or, read the sections below, unique items, since I tried to give it a unique shield first). I put in 3 wands with decent attributes, but got a completely generic (I think no properties) wand. And when I dropped it on the floor, it apparently disappeared - I am 98% it is not in my inventory or anywhere near me. Was it bugged? I think this may make the run harder, since I gave my best wands, including one that had hallowed damage and gave +6 attack rating.
Wait, I think a lot is bugged now, I dropped some other items, and they disappeared, and I am trying to drop a potion, and the game does not allow me to drop potions. Wait, now I can drop potions, but they disappear into nothingness.
I am attaching Player.log , I can see a lot of exceptions at the end. In case it matters, I first tried to give the Golden Goblin the unique paladin shield Guiding Eyes, since I hoped to combine it with two magical shields and get a better shield - but I do not know whether unique items can be given to the Golden Goblin. But the Golden Goblin would not accept the unique shield. So I instead gave it 3 wands. For some reason, the Player.log file mentions ToK.22b, even though I would guess that I am running ToK.22e .
The main ways of attempting to reproduce the bug might be to try first with wands and see if that works without any bugs. And if it does, then next try by giving it a unique item, and then give it wands (or maybe just some other items in case it is unique items that is giving problems).
interesting. i haven't messed at all with the goblin in any of the hotfixes so i wonder what went down. i'll take a look now, thank you for the bug report!
edit:
found out what the issue was. i messed up an if-else clause that made it so wand-only modifiers wouldn't be considered by the goblin, so this leads to a catastrophic crash when he makes an item with incorrect modifiers, and the game halts completely. luckily, this is only for wands and since the goblin is after the password checker, i'm in no hurry.
as long as you don't feed him any wands you'll be fine. thanks for the bug report, with your help i was able to easily solve this issue/
if something like this happens on ironman in the future, you can always force-close the game (altf4, task manager, etc) and your game save will remain. the game always autosaves at the start of a level to prevent crashes or such from fully destroying a run.
Second Iron man run attempt, ToK.22c, again with a wand/spell character.
I left a lot of items, including the paladin's shield and a lot of books, at the stairs to the next level. I then went back later, but all the items were gone. Is this on purpose? It was in the "Hall Of Pain" level that I left those items.
For some reason, the game has felt substantially easier so far (at level "Upper Halls"). Maybe it is because I am spamming a level 3 "Ice Spike" spell against bosses that I cannot kite? Or different gear?
I have not found the boss that was imprisoned behind a lever. I do not believe I skipped anything. Is it random? I might have missed it after I encountered an obelisk that deleted the map I had of the level so far.
The "Pureblooded Bugman" again caught me by surprise and caused me a lot of damage, the first time I was in danger of dying. But I could comfortably jog away, stabilize, and then kite-spam "Ice Spike". I have learned the spell "Slow", but I forgot to use it in this case.
I am currently in the "Breeding Grounds 1" level, and I have just found the "Haste" spell. I am thinking of using it to move around the level more quickly, because I am taking more care to ensure that I have a clear escape route this time around. I also found a shield or fetish (I combined it with other items at a Golden Goblin) that gave mana steal percentage (the final item went from I think 7% to 5%, but the Golden Goblin transmutation also gave it faster attack speed). So, at this point, together with "Mana Shield" level 3, despite being a wand/mage character, I am now treating a lot of the basic battles as a melee character without kiting away. "Bloodlust" is at level 3. Boss battles can still very much be dangerous. Most of my inventory is filled with potions. I am being careful when approach new rooms and blind-firing using "shift", which just refilled about 1/4 of my mana without enemies getting near (I also have some "get mana on kill" items).
The "Breeding Grounds 1" level took a lot of time to clear and felt like it had a lot of enemies.
In "Breeding Grounds 2" level, it feels a bit that I am sometimes clearing rooms of enemies without ever seeing them by shift-blind-firing into those rooms. I can see that by my mana going up a lot and hearing "death" sounds.
I am leaving lots of potions behind.
I found a helmet that "Reduces all Physical Damage by 1". Does that refer to outgoing damage or incoming damage? I assume that it is the latter.
Finally completed "Breeding Grounds 2". That felt very boring, sorry. The same enemies over and over and I am barely ever losing mana due to mana stealing and mana shield being very efficient. And I have left behind lots of potions on the floor. I did not feel like there was much if any difference between 1 and 2 of "Breeding Grounds". Would it have been less boring if I had enabled the option at the beginning of the game to have fewer ability points per level? Any planned content? Did I luck out on equipment and spells, and have it too easy? I wonder how difficult the game is to balance.
Paladin camp seems nice.
Snake monsters.
The level "Lost Corridors" feels more difficult, and especially the "Truth Seekers" are adept at dealing damage from range. I am now spending potions, at least against bosses, since the bosses I have gotten so far was the very fast kind ("Temptresses"). I also suffer a bit of attrition from regular enemies.
There was a potion that I could not reach after temporarily dropping it:
Figured out how to dodge reliably the "Truth Seekers", which meant that I ended up gaining mana while ducking in and out near the entrance of a room full of them.
Will it be possible to have multiple quests at a time? Will there be UI to see an overview of them?
I went to an obelisk, and once I activated it, it said something like "The needs of the many cost one" (I do not remember). And my helmet dropped. I am not certain why - the helmet requires constitution. Did the requirements increase, or did I lose constitution? Something else?
Defeated the final boss and won the demo. Ended up "Ice spiking" her to death, and tried to take care not to run out of mana, since the mana shield spell is really, really efficient. I did not have my preferred helmet on, because I foolishly forgot to increase one extra point into constitution when I got a level up.
Only on Normal difficulty, not Hard, but still Iron man.
The last level was somewhat long, but more fun than the two previous levels, since I did not really have any attrition at all at those two previous levels, and I ended up mostly with not-that-dangerous bosses.
Final notes: This is not quite my type of game, but I did like some of the challenge and seeing if I could figure out how to beat the game without dying. In all cases I believe, I could just briskly walk away from the fast bosses (the only type of boss that was dangerous to the wand/mage build I was using, since I paid attention when fighting ranged enemies to see whether I was taking a lot of damage or not) while trying to figure out how to deal with the boss.
The quality and scope of the game is rather high, and there is a lot of different spells, I do not think I tried out even half of them. Probably should have on the levels that I had a large surplus of potions on the floor. I think it makes sense for the "shield" spells and the "booster" spells to only allow a limit of one at a time as you have it currently implemented.
Also, attrition seems to be a major focus, and possibly also a major concern of balancing. The "health/mana on kill" properties, as well as the "life/health stealing" properties, are very powerful in this regard.
The game does not seem all that difficult in regards to action, since the most difficult encounters, bosses, can be briskly walked away from (as long as you leave an escape route), leaving you time to ponder how to deal with them (though you could also just pause the game, I guess). For regular enemies, action-skill on the player's part can help decrease attrition, and so can figuring out how to have as little attrition as possible (also by using tactics). One challenge is to have as little attrition as possible without specializing for attrition-decrease at the cost of being able to deal with bosses.
congrats on beating it! as far as i know, you are the second person to beat the game on ironman, well done!
>difficulty
a lot of it originates from RNG, both with enemies and items. im actively trying to make the variations smaller, but sometimes runs will just feel easy, it's part of the genre
>Vedomot (Lever boss) she's a rare spawn, about 1 in 5 runs. i'm toying with the concept of events like that, which are semi-random. i think it's very fun and makes the game feel large
>Breeding Grounds i think the levels are missing more wide open and lit areas. a bunch of tunnels with the same enemies get repetitive really quickly. they'll be getting changed soon enough.
>Quests i'm planning on having multiple quests, but i'm unsure about having a questlog or such, since they won't be too complex (always dealing with a "go to X and kill Y or do Z", i dont think such a design needs more details or a tracker. we'll see, it'll be getting worked on soon.
>Obelisk you lost 1 in all stats, but gained 5 in a random stats ('Many pay the price of one'). its a very painful obelisk to get!
the game is pretty difficult to balance, especially since i'm aiming to have a difficult game- but due to the large amount of RNG involved it's always tricky. i think it's doable, however.
again, congrats on beating the game and i'm very glad that you enjoyed your time. thanks again for all the detailed writeups, theyre very valuable to me! i hope that you will give the game another go in the future, and hopefully by then all your concerns will be addressed.
It's like I'm playing Diablo 1 again! The atmosphere and feel of combat are pretty much perfect.
Made it to floor 4 but got stuck as I ran out of health potions. Are you planning to add a town or shops where you can buy more consumables?
I like the idea of weapon arts. The shield skills seemed a bit cumbersome to use in the middle of battle though. Maybe I'm used to just clicking on enemies and watching them die instead of having to time blocks/parries. Perhaps the skills would be better as buffs that you can just activate at the start of battle?
Also wish there was a confirm button when increasing attributes, I leveled up the wrong ones by accident.
i'm glad youre enjoying the atmos. i wouldnt consider it perfect but it's inspiring to know im headed in the right direction
>Town
there *is* a town-like level about two hours in, but it's not a town in the traditional resupply-zone sense. it's mostly for NPCs and quests. the idea is that you're supposed to manage resources longterm, so having an on-demand town doesnt work
>Combat Arts
i like having them be active instead of buffs, since it gives warriors more to do than hold left-mouse. they can be completely ignored, though, in favor of a traditional approach if you want to go for the full D1 vibe
>Confirm Button
noted, i'll look into it
thanks so much for playing and commenting, i greatly appreciate it!
I played this the last time during DD49 and managed to get until the boss in the 2nd floor with the red light. Well, today I managed to get to the 5th floor and kill my first 2 sun cultists. On that floor no amount of save scumming could save me. I was all out of potions and only had a 1-7 scimitar and 3-5 shield.
I'm still not sure if I'm playing the game correctly. I try to clear the whole floor, pull the dudes if possible and avoid ranged attacks. But I always end up taking too much damage. Sometimes I find myself standing there and just hacking away at 5 dudes. Probably not the best way.
Overall extremely polished and fun! I'll give this another go later. Maybe try a mage character.
the game is ideally balanced for ARPG veterans (or at least that what i tell myself). it's understandable for people who don't play Diabloclones to have issues like this - sometimes RNG is also not in your favor. consider using combat arts to try and tackle what you're having difficulties with. if ranged enemies are giving you trouble, equip a shield and reflect their projectiles or block melee attacks, and so on.
thanks again for playing! magic builds might be a lil' tougher, but it depends on what you're comfortable with.
On Iron Man mode (I have not played DD50, but have played a build before that). Did not take the other start game option with weaker levels.
I am playing on ToK.22b, not ToK22.c, which was uploaded after I began playing.
I went with wand and shield.
In the in-game help system accessed with 'H', mouse wheel doesn't work with scrolling.
Nitpick: Iron bar gate doors/yetts seem to block projectiles, unlike iron bar walls which let projectiles pass through.
I often feel like I do not know when I am fighting a "regular" boss, except if my health decreases more quickly than usual and an enemy takes more time to kill than usual. The visual difference is not always clear. The game is of course generally dark.
Nitpick: Is there any way to move the minimap up, even if temporarily?
SPOILER START:
I had trouble with a boss locked in a room on the "Lower Dungeon 2" level. I entered the room at first, reading the text about "please let me out" and stuff. However, I was holding the left mouse button down all the time, and when I hovered over the lever in the room to read its text, I accidentally use the lever. The boss fight then started, and I felt unprepared and soon found myself outmatched. I then kept running away from the boss, occasionally taking damage when trying to attack at range with my wand. After running in circles for ages trying to figure out what to do, I tried using spells and timing it, which I had a bit of success with, but could not do reliably without taking damage. I had trouble re-equipping health potions during the fight, but found out that if I clicked far away, the character would keep moving, giving me time to middle-click health potions in the inventory. However, I ended up running out of health potions. Then I tried going to the main menu and load again. That apparently placed me a bit away from the boss. After a few tries with going to the main menu and load the game again, I succeeded in starting far enough away from the boss for it not to chase me. I do not at this point know how to deal with the boss without gathering enough health potions and then trying to duke it out in "melee". I do not yet have a spell that enables me to slow the boss, which would enable kiting. I do not believe it is possible to run. Alternatively, I imagine that the way to deal with the boss is to avoid it, and come back later once you are stronger, but it would have been nice if I could not use that lever while holding down the left mouse button, since I did not intend to open the door (I had not yet arranged all my health potions to prepare for the boss even).
I only found a spell book of "Ice spike" on the "Halls Of Pain" level.
SPOILER END.
Nitpick or suggestion: For the spells that have levels, include a level number in the icon in the spell book?
Nitpick or suggestion: Add an "auto-sort" button to inventory to avoid having to manually move potions around? Though sorting like this can be computationally complex. I would still think that a basic sort that just tries to move potions to for instance the right would well decently.
Nitpick: In "Halls Of Pain", there is something called "???" that offers to give equipment in return for 5 years of the MC's life. Is the "???" a placeholder name or on purpose? I would guess on purpose, but just asking to double-check. I tried to attack him with shift-leftclick with a wand, which not surprisingly did nothing :) . I did not take the offer, so I do not know what that does and did not test it, sorry.
Nitpick: Why is the default hotkey for changing inventory equipment backquote? Is that not awkward to use on many keyboards? It also did not work for me I think. But if it works well on most keyboards, I would guess that it is fine since it can be rebinded.
The slow effect of "Ice Spike" does not appear to work against the sun warriors with the big hammers, is this on purpose?
I ended up fighting a very fast "skinless/flayed" boss on the "Halls of Pain" level, and I ended up using the "go to menu-load again and appear a bit away" exploit to "kite" away from him and avoid aggro. I first tried using "Ice Spike", but for whatever reason (whether I was too unskilled at doing it or that tactic not working, I failed to kite him with pure "Ice Spike" usage without taking damage. I do not feel like I can outskill that boss, and I am out of health potions, so my current strategy is just to leave that boss behind using the exploit.
Now I have encountered another very fast "skinless/flayed" boss on the "Halls of Pain" level. I am going to attempt using the exploit against it again. I succeeded, lured it back a way, used the exploit in a long hall, and can continue. Count of bosses left behind, lurking in the darkness, biding their time (across multiple levels): 2 regular bosses, 1 special boss. I do not quite know how I could have defeated the two regular bosses with a wand/spell character (just spamming a good damage spell and have enough health and mana potions?), but that might be a skill issue on my part.
I still have not found any way to regain health outside of potions (outside of the "cauldron" spells, which I on principle am not going to use - possibly at the cost of my MC's life), not any lifestealing or manastealing items either, apart from one melee weapon gaining something on kill I think, but I discarded that due to my character focusing on wands and spells. I think at the end of "Halls Of Pain" I found an amulet that gives 1 mana on kill.
On "Upper Halls", I found a ring that gave 1 health on kill.
I found a book of "Mana Shield" in "Upper Halls".
In "Upper Halls", I defeated a very fast (and large) boss purely by using level 1 "Ice Spike". I still spent a fair number of health potions, but I had managed to lose very little health in part by relying on the "Mana Shield" spell and in part by kiting and being careful, so I still have some health potions left.
State of the game so far:
Maybe I am wrong, but, if you are being chased, and you leave a slow enemy's line of sight, might it despawn entirely?
For some reason, the minimap is in the center now. On earlier levels, I believe it was offset down.
Nitpick: When being damaged while having a mana shield and not losing any health, would it be possible for some "mana-shield-clang" sound to be played instead of the "aw" sound that is played when the character loses health? Maybe play both when the mana shield is emptied and the player loses both health and mana in one attack?
I wonder whether my strategy of leveling up both "mind" and "intelligence" is a poor one, since both increase offensive options in some way ("intelligence" also provides some defensive options). On the other hand, some "mage-type" gear that give bonuses to both "mind" and "intelligence" requires "intelligence" of a certain level to use.
On one of the first levels, I used a "menacing obelisk", and I think it decreased my maximum health by 2, with a message that included "exertion". On a later level, another "menacing obelisk" said something about treasures being refilled, but I did not want to go back, since the bosses I exploit-escaped still lurked in the shadows on earlier levels. But now I am in "The Burrows", I have a good stock of health and mana potions, and I have encountered another "menacing obelisk". So I think I will take my chances, backtrack, see if I can defeat the bosses, and look if there is any new treasures in previous levels (I am not quite certain why previous levels would get treasures refilled, since it sounds a lot like backtracking), and after all that, activate the "menacing obelisk" I have found here in "The Burrows".
I have killed all 3 bosses (the two regular bosses and the special boss) that I exploit-escaped earlier. I use level 1 "Ice Spike" spam against them all. One of the regular bosses dropped the paladin's shield. The special boss dropped "Lashing Claw", which I am not going to use due to my build, but which looks interesting. During my backtracking, I did not see any new treasures, so I do not understand what the message of the second "menacing obelisk" meant.
Some minimap objects are apparently not stored, but can be rediscovered, like pillars in "The Burrows", and I think at least one exit in one level.
The third "menacing obelisk" shot out a lot of fireballs which dealt 31 damage to me, luckily I was at full health at 83, so I am now at 52 health. It said "Evil lurks where we least expect it".
I think it was primarily the bosses in the early levels that were difficult to recognize, at least the bosses of the last few levels were recognizable. But I have not completed the game yet, and this is on Iron man mode, so I might not survive until the end.
I found a book of "Bloodlust" in "The Burrows", near the ancient skeleton level entrance. With the "Fetish Idol" I have that gives a level in it, I now have access to "Bloodlust" level 2. The "Bloodlust" spell scales really well and seems really nice for a wand-focused user, but I have yet to test in practice how good level 2 "Bloodlust" is compared to not using "Bloodlust" (the 40% extra damage should be substantial).
I wonder what would happen if I gathered and gave all the unique items I found to the golden goblin or what it is called (I already used it previously with mage-type equipment, and got a good crown, which I am using). I do not know if it always gives "build-appropriate" equipment or not, and how it would check that, so making it dependent on the type of equipment you give it would make sense, I think.
I am overflowing with potions now:
I encountered a "Pureblooded bugman" boss. I could not differentiate it from the other enemies easily, apart from the huge amounts of health and damage output of it. I messed up and almost died (got to like 8 health when I escaped in the wrong direction - I also ended up attacking enemies when I really wanted to run and flee at one point, which I think is my fault and not the fault of the game), and when I tried "Ice Spike" spam, it tanked through it, and I had to escape. I found out that it is possible to escape enemies through going to an earlier level, which I did not realize until now. I re-equipped potions, went back to the level "The Burrows", and tried kiting it a bit, since its pausing just barely allows kiting, but I ended up switching between kiting and "Ice Spike". It finally died, but I did spend a fair number of health and mana potions on it. I still have a lot of potions left, though. Is ice damage weak against that type of enemy?
It is a bit annoying when enemies that are close by and which would clearly be in line of sight of the main character can hide completely behind walls from what the player can see. Would it make sense if enemies showed their outline (like when you hover over them with your mouse) when an enemy is both: In line of sight of the character; Is fairly close by; Is behind a wall?
I found a book of "Haste"! I did not know the game had a spell like this. I wonder if this means I will be able to reliably kite many enemies including bosses, as long as I have at least a bit of mana left. I found it somewhat late, in "The Burrows" level. It is rather expensive, however, at 10 mana.
The level "The Burrows" have a very nice creepy-crawly atmosphere.
On the level "The Burrows", the entrance to the ancient skeleton level is not saved on the minimap and is only added to the minimap once you re-discover it.
That level is called "Skeleton Pit". But is one of the lower, earlier levels not also called something like that?
The "Ancient Golem" is very large and menacing, but not so dangerous for a ranged-focused build.
I have replaced "Manashield" with "Haste" in my Spell Wheel, but I have not used it yet for a practical purpose (currently in the ancient skeleton level).
I found a minor visual bug, with a black poodle where my character is visually on top of it but the lightning shots from my wand go below it: https://ufile.io/xfq3vusx
My "Purifying Circle" spell is at level 2, and I have found three books for it that I cannot use yet due to too low "intelligence" level.
The unique weapons seem interesting, I like the "Non-Euclidean Basher", though I am not going to use it due to the wand-mage build that I am using.
The ancient skeleton level might be the first level that I have found equipment that has "steal percentage health/mana" properties.
I think the game froze when I used lightning disk, or when it hit an enemy, or something:
I have had the game running for some time after the crash, but the log file at "C:\Users\itch-player-redacted\AppData\LocalLow\osur\Tower of Kalemonvo\Player.log" is over 2GB by now!
The Itch player wants me to update to version 22c, but will my Iron Man save carry over? However, I can also choose to not update, so I am continuing in 22b.
The Iron man save is still present, but I lost all my progress in the ancient skeleton level, items gotten, experience, everything, from what I can tell. I am going to avoid using the lightning disk spell from now on.
Possible bug: I am taking on and off a ring that has "Increases Attack Rating by 5". But I cannot see any changes in the level screen. Does "attack rating" not affect wands?
Minor bug, three skeleton archers stuck behind a bookshelf:
A golden goblin, together with some rings that gave extra poison damage, health/mana on kill, and some other properties, yielded a very good ring that gave extra damage of other types and +3 mana on kill. Combined with level 3 "Purifying circle" and other items that give extra mana and health on kill (I am still carrying a book of that which I cannot read yet, I did not pick up yet another book like in the lost progress before the game froze previously), I can remote-clear several open areas rather easily in this level.
Regrettably, I lost my Iron man run. I realized too late that I was up against a boss in the "Breeding Grounds 1", in a panic I retreated into unknown territory, and ended up stuck in a corner. The game felt really easy right before I died, since I dealt something like 16-22 damage per wand shot (with items that gave extra damage per shot), and I believe I could have comfortably deal with that boss if I had not in a panic foolishly retreated into enemy territory - my inventory was full of potions and I also had the "Haste" spell for kiting or escaping. I would not mind it at all if bosses were made much clearer, because the game for some portions changes between "killing mobs that are no danger at all if you play at least a little bit well" to "need to kite, maybe retreat, maybe think how to deal with it, refill potions, can very much die" bosses. And even then, many bosses are not really that dangerous.
thanks for the very detailed feedback and playthrough! i am truly humbled to have made something you valued enough to take the time to write this out
the error, from what i can gather, appears to be that an enemy couldn't find a position to path to when doing a random-movement they do while they're active with no enemy in sight. that's rather strange since i never had this issue - but since i never had this issue i never remembered to exit the movement loop when bringing up that message. so you had your logfile filled with plenty of dev-comments that repeated themselves in a while loop until a crash. i'm unsure how it might be related to any spell usage, but i'll take a look now.
to address some specifics:
>Cell doors block projectiles noted, will fix this eventually. it has to do with "door" type object preventing obstacles. i recently fixed this with statues, ill do it with doors soon
>Boss fights Usually they have a different skin and some light effects, but bosses that have non-aura modifiers (for example "Extra damage") have no other visual changes. it's something i'll need to address.
>Minimap You can move the minimap with the arrow keys, or dim it with + or -
>Spoilers/Vedomot What a funny encounter. i'm glad to be able to instill this panic/fear in players. i'll look into making the lever a "click only" interactable
>Spell Levels on icons sure, i'll try it out.
>Potion sort. you CAN soft of sort them, but i'm not planning on autosorting. pressing middle-mouse on a potion in the inventory sends it to the hotbar. if the hotbar is full, it sends it to the first available slot, going from values 0 to 49, with 0 being the top left slot, and 40 being the bottom right. in this case, slot 9 is top right, so the potions will be sorted horizontally.
>??? it's on purpose! i'll change it to something like "Unkown entity" or something - the idea is that the protagonist can't tell what he's looking at exactly
>Bosses Continued i find it amusing how you were able to problem solve your way out of bosses. perhaps i should persist their targetting on saving/loading
>Icespike vs Sun Cultists correct, they cannot be slowed!
>Despawning enemies enemies never despawn, but they do lose sight of you and de-aggro after some time. they will either return to where they came from or go "patrol" somewhere
>Manashield SFX noted. good idea
>Minimap pillars noted. i'll take a look
>Menacing obelisks they're 50-50 whether they give a boon or a negative effect! the fireball one you've gotten is my favorite!
>Ice damage weakness im curious about your spell drop rates - since i feel like icespike that late into the game should be at least level 3 or so, and not level 1. i'll take a look at book drop rates again and see if something is amiss
>outline another player had a great idea about outlines, i'll try and implement that by next DD
>crash Noted above, looking into it now.
>Death I'm very glad you have made it this far. it's an impressive and valiant ironman run You're right that the game tends to 'shift gears' when a boss appears. i will need to make their presence much more obvious to avoid startling the player with a much stronger foe
again, i am tremendously grateful for your long and detailed feedback. thank you for taking the time to play and document your experience despite the hardships. i hope you have enjoyed your time, and i will try my best to ensure the future version is bug-free, at least from these bugs mentioned today!
I'll preface this by saying that I'm not into orblikes so maybe all I'm going to say it's wrong.
I started on normal difficulty with a wand and shield and I played until burrows without dying once, with the magic build I was running only the boss monsters ever touched me, it felt a little cheesy. Potion management is a little clunky, maybe a system like in Sacred where instead of a potion hotbar you have potion hotkeys that consumes them straight out of your inventory might be smoother
If it's meant to punish you for being unprepared then it works sometimes, but for most bosses it doesn't really take much to put your character in auto-walk and quickly fill your hotbar with new potions.
Sometimes enemies are hidden by walls, an outline around spotted enemies like for Items might help with that.
But I haven't encountered any bugs and playing around with new spells was fun, it just got repetitive in the last few floors I played. At one point I stopped dodging projectiles and started tanking enemies while they grouped around my fire traps just because I had too many healing potions.
thanks for the playtest and feedback! i think feedback such as this is the most meaningful for me since it shows me an outsider's perspective on common game tropes.
the enemy being hidden by walls is something i'm currently trying to figure out. perhaps a force-enemy-outline option might be a clever way to handle this - it would work the same as how item are handled. i never considered doing it this way somehow, it's a rather simple solution.
im glad you had fun messing about with the spells. firetrap is especially fun with how it stacks
the potion/preparedness is designed to prevent 24/7 sipping potions, but it seems like most players are frustrated by the limitations. i'll need to think about this more, but i'm unsure of a solution that wont piss off at least one camp.
I never played an orblike before, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I played a couple floors as a sword and board warrior. Didn't run into any bugs my first playthrough. But after reloading I got stuck on a door (sent you the webm in the thread), and when I tried to save and load at that point it kept loading. Restarting allowed me to load back, but the door was still blocked. If you tell me where your saves are stored I can send you the save.
The game was easy enough to pick up, though it was strange that you start with skills you can't even use, fortunately everything was well explained/tooltipped. Additionally I couldn't find a use for the shield since blocking both costs mana and enemy moves aren't very telegraphed.
Not being able to attack unless clicking on an enemy also felt strange, as did the random misses(?) when fighting enemies. Floating damage numbers would also be nice.
The enemy graphics are nice and fit the game really well. The rooms themselves seem quite random and empty, but I guess that's typical for orblikes.
thanks for the playthrough and feedback! i value the insight of players unfamiliar with the genre, so i appreciate you taking the time to play and write this out
the fact that loading didn't work is strange. your savegames are .dat files stored in C:/Users/You/AppData/LocalLow/osur/Tower of Kalemonvo
if you could please post it here alongside the Player.Log text file, that would be greatly appreciated
you can attack without needing a target by holding Shift
Things like the lack of HP bars, floating numbers and other UI elements is done on purpose. i like shrouding the player in mystery and uncertainty more than telling them a creature has X hp and required N hits to kill
The rooms all lack a bit of flavor as it is, that part will require a lot of assetwork methinks.
thanks again for the feedback, i'll try and see what caused your save issues. the door should be an easy enough fix... i hope
Comments
I'm super late and I'm far too inexperienced at this genre to properly give feedback, but I still wanted to comment that the game is coming along great and it runs way better than the last time I played.
I'm also going to steal your method of blocking off the later levels for next DD.
by all means take it! Let me know what your favorite animal is first though, hehe
thanks for the kind words, and I hope to see you on next DD
Running on ToK.22f, hard mode, iron man.
I used wands on the first Golden Goblin and can confirm that it works and does not bug out.
I created this very strong ring using the second Golden Goblin. But, now that I check it many levels later, is it bugged? It seems to increase strength and not all stats.
Sometimes my equipment falls off due to taking off or changing other equipment. Could that have something to do with it? Or maybe that the ring was created by the Golden Goblin?
Poison on the player character does not appear to stack, unless I am mistaken. Is that on purpose?
You wrote somewhere that you intended to make the Breeding Grounds more open. I do not believe that is necessary, or at least, you could keep one of those levels like it currently is and then change the other one. More traps, enemy variety? For the second level, playing into the "breeding", have temporary enemies spawn? Like, giving an enemy a summon spell like the snake summon spell the player has? But that might run counter to the player's expectation and possibly also the game design and game balance.
Why do I have 52 intelligence? I do not believe my items should add up to that. Is it a bug? I did put a lot of points into intelligence, but I am playing on hard mode, and I have unspent ability points.
Wait, I just switched around a lot of gear to try to figure out what the source of the intelligence was, and now I am at 60 intelligence with the same gear as before.
I think I figured out how. Changes to secondary weapon and shield, stats not sufficient and drops including shield, switch back, pick up equipment.
https://fastupload.io/n92WEZwVTFjH3FY/file
One way to robustly fix this in programming might be to not directly mutate the "final" variables and try to keep them accurate always, but instead just store all "sources" of attributes. And then, whenever equipment changes for whatever reason, you recalculate the final attribute value from all sources. It can be a bit finicky, but should possibly be much more robust than straight-up mutation and a better trade-off in the code, and the computational cost should be a non-issue since it is just the main character and very few equipment slots and sources. That might fix a number of different bugs related to stats - the ring I forged with the Golden Goblin also appeared buggy in regards to stats. In some ways inspired by "reactive" programming, or like Excel cells, or "unidirectional data flow", but just limited to stats. It will likely take you time to implement that subsystem and replace the current apparent direct-mutation-bookkeeping method you use.
I do not know whether my iron man hard mode run is now ruined, because having 108 intelligence is over-powered. At least "intelligence" first and foremost affects the ability to read books.
Wait, my maximum mana is also affected. I have 195 mana. That must be from the paladin's shield, since the "mind" ability is what gives extra maximum mana.
I will end my run and claim that I lost due to being completely over-powered due to unintentional exploit-usage due to bugs.
I still have not completed an iron man hard mode run. Much sadness.
Interesting, I thought i fixed this. I'll give it a check tomorrow and see what's going on. thank you for the feedback!
there's also a bug in this version that i didn't release a fix for - the last level doesn't allow saving. oops. you can rest easy and wait until DD52 should you want to do a *fair* ironman run.
any way you can send me the save file for this? i tried to replicate it internally with no success - item stats are modified normally and there's no issue
Sorry, I do not wish to send the save file, for different reasons.
Also, in case there is any confusion, I am describing two bugs, and they appear unrelated, at least the bugs can be reproduced on my system without the other bug's items being involved. I have now spent some more time investigating the bugs:
Bug 1: Is with the ring crafted by a Golden Goblin, where the stat boosts it gives are apparently bugged. I tested it a bit more, and it appears that it might be the combination of "+2 to Strength" and "All Stats Increased by 3" that bugs out. The ring, at least on the Stats Page UI, gives +5 Strength, and no other Stat increases, even though according to its description it should give +5 Strength and +3 all other Stats. I have isolated the bug to just the ring by having no other items equipped on the character than that Golden Goblin-crafted ring.
Bug 2: Is with the unique shield "Guiding Eyes" that the wounded paladin left behind as well as a wand crafted by another Golden Goblin, and quickswapping. The wand has a number of different properties, including +4 Constitution and "Increases Mana by 5". My character has 12 base Constitution, so if the wand is not held, the shield cannot be held, since the shield Guiding Eyes in this run requires 14 Constitution. I have isolated the bug to just those two items by removing all other gear. I also had a torso-body-armor depend on the extra Constitution from the wand, but I tried with just that torso-body-armor and the wand, and I could not replicate the bug. I have also isolated the bug to quickswapping, by either clicking in the inventory on the "II" button or by using the quickswap hotkey, and having the shield Guiding Eyes fall off due to the wand no longer being present and not giving its Constitution bonus. I can not replicate the bug by manually clicking on the wand to remove it and holding it in my cursor and that way making the shield drop due to not having sufficient Constitution, it is only by quickswapping that it occurs. The bug gives increases not just to Mana and Intelligence, but also Armor and Defense, the properties that the Guiding Eyes shield gives in this run (apart from the "15% for Damage Absorbed by Mana" property, but I can not see the effects of that from the Stats Page UI). Each time that the quickswapping is done, the properties are increased, and after having been done many times, giving very high values of Intelligence, Mana, Armor and Defense. What is important to note is that when I load the save again (for instance by quitting to the menu and loading the Iron man save again), the character does not keep the extra Intelligence stat, mana, armor and defense, but the bug can still be replicated by doing the quickswapping again. I do not have any other shield that requires Constitution to be held, so I do not know whether the bug can be isolated to the unique shield Guiding Eyes or if it is a general bug involving left-hand (or shield in case idol items do not bug out?) equipment.
Is there anything locally you might want me to do, that does not include sending the save file?
that's fine if you don't want to share the savefile. let me know if it's something on the game's end that's influencing this decision, since i don't want players to feel uncomfortable about this if possible.
i quickly looked at bug 2 and was able to replicate it. i think i resolved it, but requirements and item swapping with +Stat items is messy since i foolishly made my "requirement check" function *always* check everything. in this case all that i needed to change was a single line of code so hopefully that fixed it. we'll see next time i put a build out.
i'll take a look at bug #1 now, which is less important since the current "demo" ends before the golden goblin anyway.
again, thank you for all your generous help in tracking down and helping solve these issues. i am sure you have greatly sped up my dev time, and i am very thankful for it.
No, it is just me being careful in general, I try to be careful with demo day games, and honestly with software in general.
I am happy to help 🙂.
I link DD51 videos folder to everyone who got a video, so here it is:
https://mega.nz/folder/PYMBCI6A#kb__dlWiUsmt-zPha-iBtA
Thanks for the easter egg.
Iron man + hard mode run. The Itch app is leading me to believe I am running ToK.22e, but I do not know whether I can trust it.
I could be wrong, but the Golden Goblin may be bugged with wands (or, read the sections below, unique items, since I tried to give it a unique shield first). I put in 3 wands with decent attributes, but got a completely generic (I think no properties) wand. And when I dropped it on the floor, it apparently disappeared - I am 98% it is not in my inventory or anywhere near me. Was it bugged? I think this may make the run harder, since I gave my best wands, including one that had hallowed damage and gave +6 attack rating.
Wait, I think a lot is bugged now, I dropped some other items, and they disappeared, and I am trying to drop a potion, and the game does not allow me to drop potions. Wait, now I can drop potions, but they disappear into nothingness.
I am attaching Player.log , I can see a lot of exceptions at the end. In case it matters, I first tried to give the Golden Goblin the unique paladin shield Guiding Eyes, since I hoped to combine it with two magical shields and get a better shield - but I do not know whether unique items can be given to the Golden Goblin. But the Golden Goblin would not accept the unique shield. So I instead gave it 3 wands. For some reason, the Player.log file mentions ToK.22b, even though I would guess that I am running ToK.22e .
Player.log : https://uploadify.net/03a81c83cf296af4/Player.log
The main ways of attempting to reproduce the bug might be to try first with wands and see if that works without any bugs. And if it does, then next try by giving it a unique item, and then give it wands (or maybe just some other items in case it is unique items that is giving problems).
interesting. i haven't messed at all with the goblin in any of the hotfixes so i wonder what went down. i'll take a look now, thank you for the bug report!
edit:
found out what the issue was. i messed up an if-else clause that made it so wand-only modifiers wouldn't be considered by the goblin, so this leads to a catastrophic crash when he makes an item with incorrect modifiers, and the game halts completely. luckily, this is only for wands and since the goblin is after the password checker, i'm in no hurry.
as long as you don't feed him any wands you'll be fine. thanks for the bug report, with your help i was able to easily solve this issue/
if something like this happens on ironman in the future, you can always force-close the game (altf4, task manager, etc) and your game save will remain. the game always autosaves at the start of a level to prevent crashes or such from fully destroying a run.
Second Iron man run attempt, ToK.22c, again with a wand/spell character.
I left a lot of items, including the paladin's shield and a lot of books, at the stairs to the next level. I then went back later, but all the items were gone. Is this on purpose? It was in the "Hall Of Pain" level that I left those items.
For some reason, the game has felt substantially easier so far (at level "Upper Halls"). Maybe it is because I am spamming a level 3 "Ice Spike" spell against bosses that I cannot kite? Or different gear?
I have not found the boss that was imprisoned behind a lever. I do not believe I skipped anything. Is it random? I might have missed it after I encountered an obelisk that deleted the map I had of the level so far.
The "Pureblooded Bugman" again caught me by surprise and caused me a lot of damage, the first time I was in danger of dying. But I could comfortably jog away, stabilize, and then kite-spam "Ice Spike". I have learned the spell "Slow", but I forgot to use it in this case.
I am currently in the "Breeding Grounds 1" level, and I have just found the "Haste" spell. I am thinking of using it to move around the level more quickly, because I am taking more care to ensure that I have a clear escape route this time around. I also found a shield or fetish (I combined it with other items at a Golden Goblin) that gave mana steal percentage (the final item went from I think 7% to 5%, but the Golden Goblin transmutation also gave it faster attack speed). So, at this point, together with "Mana Shield" level 3, despite being a wand/mage character, I am now treating a lot of the basic battles as a melee character without kiting away. "Bloodlust" is at level 3. Boss battles can still very much be dangerous. Most of my inventory is filled with potions. I am being careful when approach new rooms and blind-firing using "shift", which just refilled about 1/4 of my mana without enemies getting near (I also have some "get mana on kill" items).
The "Breeding Grounds 1" level took a lot of time to clear and felt like it had a lot of enemies.
In "Breeding Grounds 2" level, it feels a bit that I am sometimes clearing rooms of enemies without ever seeing them by shift-blind-firing into those rooms. I can see that by my mana going up a lot and hearing "death" sounds.
I am leaving lots of potions behind.
I found a helmet that "Reduces all Physical Damage by 1". Does that refer to outgoing damage or incoming damage? I assume that it is the latter.
Finally completed "Breeding Grounds 2". That felt very boring, sorry. The same enemies over and over and I am barely ever losing mana due to mana stealing and mana shield being very efficient. And I have left behind lots of potions on the floor. I did not feel like there was much if any difference between 1 and 2 of "Breeding Grounds". Would it have been less boring if I had enabled the option at the beginning of the game to have fewer ability points per level? Any planned content? Did I luck out on equipment and spells, and have it too easy? I wonder how difficult the game is to balance.
Paladin camp seems nice.
Snake monsters.
The level "Lost Corridors" feels more difficult, and especially the "Truth Seekers" are adept at dealing damage from range. I am now spending potions, at least against bosses, since the bosses I have gotten so far was the very fast kind ("Temptresses"). I also suffer a bit of attrition from regular enemies.
There was a potion that I could not reach after temporarily dropping it:
Figured out how to dodge reliably the "Truth Seekers", which meant that I ended up gaining mana while ducking in and out near the entrance of a room full of them.
Will it be possible to have multiple quests at a time? Will there be UI to see an overview of them?
I went to an obelisk, and once I activated it, it said something like "The needs of the many cost one" (I do not remember). And my helmet dropped. I am not certain why - the helmet requires constitution. Did the requirements increase, or did I lose constitution? Something else?
Defeated the final boss and won the demo. Ended up "Ice spiking" her to death, and tried to take care not to run out of mana, since the mana shield spell is really, really efficient. I did not have my preferred helmet on, because I foolishly forgot to increase one extra point into constitution when I got a level up.
Only on Normal difficulty, not Hard, but still Iron man.
The last level was somewhat long, but more fun than the two previous levels, since I did not really have any attrition at all at those two previous levels, and I ended up mostly with not-that-dangerous bosses.
Final notes: This is not quite my type of game, but I did like some of the challenge and seeing if I could figure out how to beat the game without dying. In all cases I believe, I could just briskly walk away from the fast bosses (the only type of boss that was dangerous to the wand/mage build I was using, since I paid attention when fighting ranged enemies to see whether I was taking a lot of damage or not) while trying to figure out how to deal with the boss.
The quality and scope of the game is rather high, and there is a lot of different spells, I do not think I tried out even half of them. Probably should have on the levels that I had a large surplus of potions on the floor. I think it makes sense for the "shield" spells and the "booster" spells to only allow a limit of one at a time as you have it currently implemented.
Also, attrition seems to be a major focus, and possibly also a major concern of balancing. The "health/mana on kill" properties, as well as the "life/health stealing" properties, are very powerful in this regard.
The game does not seem all that difficult in regards to action, since the most difficult encounters, bosses, can be briskly walked away from (as long as you leave an escape route), leaving you time to ponder how to deal with them (though you could also just pause the game, I guess). For regular enemies, action-skill on the player's part can help decrease attrition, and so can figuring out how to have as little attrition as possible (also by using tactics). One challenge is to have as little attrition as possible without specializing for attrition-decrease at the cost of being able to deal with bosses.
Also, my mana shield was at the end at level 4.
congrats on beating it! as far as i know, you are the second person to beat the game on ironman, well done!
>difficulty
a lot of it originates from RNG, both with enemies and items. im actively trying to make the variations smaller, but sometimes runs will just feel easy, it's part of the genre
>Vedomot (Lever boss)
she's a rare spawn, about 1 in 5 runs. i'm toying with the concept of events like that, which are semi-random. i think it's very fun and makes the game feel large
>Breeding Grounds
i think the levels are missing more wide open and lit areas. a bunch of tunnels with the same enemies get repetitive really quickly. they'll be getting changed soon enough.
>Quests
i'm planning on having multiple quests, but i'm unsure about having a questlog or such, since they won't be too complex (always dealing with a "go to X and kill Y or do Z", i dont think such a design needs more details or a tracker. we'll see, it'll be getting worked on soon.
>Obelisk
you lost 1 in all stats, but gained 5 in a random stats ('Many pay the price of one'). its a very painful obelisk to get!
the game is pretty difficult to balance, especially since i'm aiming to have a difficult game- but due to the large amount of RNG involved it's always tricky. i think it's doable, however.
again, congrats on beating the game and i'm very glad that you enjoyed your time. thanks again for all the detailed writeups, theyre very valuable to me! i hope that you will give the game another go in the future, and hopefully by then all your concerns will be addressed.
It's like I'm playing Diablo 1 again! The atmosphere and feel of combat are pretty much perfect.
Made it to floor 4 but got stuck as I ran out of health potions. Are you planning to add a town or shops where you can buy more consumables?
I like the idea of weapon arts. The shield skills seemed a bit cumbersome to use in the middle of battle though. Maybe I'm used to just clicking on enemies and watching them die instead of having to time blocks/parries. Perhaps the skills would be better as buffs that you can just activate at the start of battle?
Also wish there was a confirm button when increasing attributes, I leveled up the wrong ones by accident.
thanks for playing and for the feedback!
i'm glad youre enjoying the atmos. i wouldnt consider it perfect but it's inspiring to know im headed in the right direction
>Town
there *is* a town-like level about two hours in, but it's not a town in the traditional resupply-zone sense. it's mostly for NPCs and quests. the idea is that you're supposed to manage resources longterm, so having an on-demand town doesnt work
>Combat Arts
i like having them be active instead of buffs, since it gives warriors more to do than hold left-mouse. they can be completely ignored, though, in favor of a traditional approach if you want to go for the full D1 vibe
>Confirm Button
noted, i'll look into it
thanks so much for playing and commenting, i greatly appreciate it!
Obligatory "not a orblike player".
I played this the last time during DD49 and managed to get until the boss in the 2nd floor with the red light. Well, today I managed to get to the 5th floor and kill my first 2 sun cultists. On that floor no amount of save scumming could save me. I was all out of potions and only had a 1-7 scimitar and 3-5 shield.
I'm still not sure if I'm playing the game correctly. I try to clear the whole floor, pull the dudes if possible and avoid ranged attacks. But I always end up taking too much damage. Sometimes I find myself standing there and just hacking away at 5 dudes. Probably not the best way.
Overall extremely polished and fun! I'll give this another go later. Maybe try a mage character.
thank you for playing and writing!
the game is ideally balanced for ARPG veterans (or at least that what i tell myself). it's understandable for people who don't play Diabloclones to have issues like this - sometimes RNG is also not in your favor. consider using combat arts to try and tackle what you're having difficulties with. if ranged enemies are giving you trouble, equip a shield and reflect their projectiles or block melee attacks, and so on.
thanks again for playing! magic builds might be a lil' tougher, but it depends on what you're comfortable with.
On Iron Man mode (I have not played DD50, but have played a build before that). Did not take the other start game option with weaker levels.
I am playing on ToK.22b, not ToK22.c, which was uploaded after I began playing.
I went with wand and shield.
In the in-game help system accessed with 'H', mouse wheel doesn't work with scrolling.
Nitpick: Iron bar gate doors/yetts seem to block projectiles, unlike iron bar walls which let projectiles pass through.
I often feel like I do not know when I am fighting a "regular" boss, except if my health decreases more quickly than usual and an enemy takes more time to kill than usual. The visual difference is not always clear. The game is of course generally dark.
Nitpick: Is there any way to move the minimap up, even if temporarily?
SPOILER START:
SPOILER END.
Nitpick or suggestion: For the spells that have levels, include a level number in the icon in the spell book?
Nitpick or suggestion: Add an "auto-sort" button to inventory to avoid having to manually move potions around? Though sorting like this can be computationally complex. I would still think that a basic sort that just tries to move potions to for instance the right would well decently.
Nitpick: In "Halls Of Pain", there is something called "???" that offers to give equipment in return for 5 years of the MC's life. Is the "???" a placeholder name or on purpose? I would guess on purpose, but just asking to double-check. I tried to attack him with shift-leftclick with a wand, which not surprisingly did nothing :) . I did not take the offer, so I do not know what that does and did not test it, sorry.
Nitpick: Why is the default hotkey for changing inventory equipment backquote? Is that not awkward to use on many keyboards? It also did not work for me I think. But if it works well on most keyboards, I would guess that it is fine since it can be rebinded.
The slow effect of "Ice Spike" does not appear to work against the sun warriors with the big hammers, is this on purpose?
I ended up fighting a very fast "skinless/flayed" boss on the "Halls of Pain" level, and I ended up using the "go to menu-load again and appear a bit away" exploit to "kite" away from him and avoid aggro. I first tried using "Ice Spike", but for whatever reason (whether I was too unskilled at doing it or that tactic not working, I failed to kite him with pure "Ice Spike" usage without taking damage. I do not feel like I can outskill that boss, and I am out of health potions, so my current strategy is just to leave that boss behind using the exploit.
Now I have encountered another very fast "skinless/flayed" boss on the "Halls of Pain" level. I am going to attempt using the exploit against it again. I succeeded, lured it back a way, used the exploit in a long hall, and can continue. Count of bosses left behind, lurking in the darkness, biding their time (across multiple levels): 2 regular bosses, 1 special boss. I do not quite know how I could have defeated the two regular bosses with a wand/spell character (just spamming a good damage spell and have enough health and mana potions?), but that might be a skill issue on my part.
I still have not found any way to regain health outside of potions (outside of the "cauldron" spells, which I on principle am not going to use - possibly at the cost of my MC's life), not any lifestealing or manastealing items either, apart from one melee weapon gaining something on kill I think, but I discarded that due to my character focusing on wands and spells. I think at the end of "Halls Of Pain" I found an amulet that gives 1 mana on kill.
On "Upper Halls", I found a ring that gave 1 health on kill.
I found a book of "Mana Shield" in "Upper Halls".
In "Upper Halls", I defeated a very fast (and large) boss purely by using level 1 "Ice Spike". I still spent a fair number of health potions, but I had managed to lose very little health in part by relying on the "Mana Shield" spell and in part by kiting and being careful, so I still have some health potions left.
State of the game so far:
Maybe I am wrong, but, if you are being chased, and you leave a slow enemy's line of sight, might it despawn entirely?
For some reason, the minimap is in the center now. On earlier levels, I believe it was offset down.
Nitpick: When being damaged while having a mana shield and not losing any health, would it be possible for some "mana-shield-clang" sound to be played instead of the "aw" sound that is played when the character loses health? Maybe play both when the mana shield is emptied and the player loses both health and mana in one attack?
I wonder whether my strategy of leveling up both "mind" and "intelligence" is a poor one, since both increase offensive options in some way ("intelligence" also provides some defensive options). On the other hand, some "mage-type" gear that give bonuses to both "mind" and "intelligence" requires "intelligence" of a certain level to use.
On one of the first levels, I used a "menacing obelisk", and I think it decreased my maximum health by 2, with a message that included "exertion". On a later level, another "menacing obelisk" said something about treasures being refilled, but I did not want to go back, since the bosses I exploit-escaped still lurked in the shadows on earlier levels. But now I am in "The Burrows", I have a good stock of health and mana potions, and I have encountered another "menacing obelisk". So I think I will take my chances, backtrack, see if I can defeat the bosses, and look if there is any new treasures in previous levels (I am not quite certain why previous levels would get treasures refilled, since it sounds a lot like backtracking), and after all that, activate the "menacing obelisk" I have found here in "The Burrows".
I have killed all 3 bosses (the two regular bosses and the special boss) that I exploit-escaped earlier. I use level 1 "Ice Spike" spam against them all. One of the regular bosses dropped the paladin's shield. The special boss dropped "Lashing Claw", which I am not going to use due to my build, but which looks interesting. During my backtracking, I did not see any new treasures, so I do not understand what the message of the second "menacing obelisk" meant.
Some minimap objects are apparently not stored, but can be rediscovered, like pillars in "The Burrows", and I think at least one exit in one level.
The third "menacing obelisk" shot out a lot of fireballs which dealt 31 damage to me, luckily I was at full health at 83, so I am now at 52 health. It said "Evil lurks where we least expect it".
I think it was primarily the bosses in the early levels that were difficult to recognize, at least the bosses of the last few levels were recognizable. But I have not completed the game yet, and this is on Iron man mode, so I might not survive until the end.
I found a book of "Bloodlust" in "The Burrows", near the ancient skeleton level entrance. With the "Fetish Idol" I have that gives a level in it, I now have access to "Bloodlust" level 2. The "Bloodlust" spell scales really well and seems really nice for a wand-focused user, but I have yet to test in practice how good level 2 "Bloodlust" is compared to not using "Bloodlust" (the 40% extra damage should be substantial).
I wonder what would happen if I gathered and gave all the unique items I found to the golden goblin or what it is called (I already used it previously with mage-type equipment, and got a good crown, which I am using). I do not know if it always gives "build-appropriate" equipment or not, and how it would check that, so making it dependent on the type of equipment you give it would make sense, I think.
I am overflowing with potions now:
I encountered a "Pureblooded bugman" boss. I could not differentiate it from the other enemies easily, apart from the huge amounts of health and damage output of it. I messed up and almost died (got to like 8 health when I escaped in the wrong direction - I also ended up attacking enemies when I really wanted to run and flee at one point, which I think is my fault and not the fault of the game), and when I tried "Ice Spike" spam, it tanked through it, and I had to escape. I found out that it is possible to escape enemies through going to an earlier level, which I did not realize until now. I re-equipped potions, went back to the level "The Burrows", and tried kiting it a bit, since its pausing just barely allows kiting, but I ended up switching between kiting and "Ice Spike". It finally died, but I did spend a fair number of health and mana potions on it. I still have a lot of potions left, though. Is ice damage weak against that type of enemy?
It is a bit annoying when enemies that are close by and which would clearly be in line of sight of the main character can hide completely behind walls from what the player can see. Would it make sense if enemies showed their outline (like when you hover over them with your mouse) when an enemy is both: In line of sight of the character; Is fairly close by; Is behind a wall?
I found a book of "Haste"! I did not know the game had a spell like this. I wonder if this means I will be able to reliably kite many enemies including bosses, as long as I have at least a bit of mana left. I found it somewhat late, in "The Burrows" level. It is rather expensive, however, at 10 mana.
The level "The Burrows" have a very nice creepy-crawly atmosphere.
On the level "The Burrows", the entrance to the ancient skeleton level is not saved on the minimap and is only added to the minimap once you re-discover it.
That level is called "Skeleton Pit". But is one of the lower, earlier levels not also called something like that?
The "Ancient Golem" is very large and menacing, but not so dangerous for a ranged-focused build.
I have replaced "Manashield" with "Haste" in my Spell Wheel, but I have not used it yet for a practical purpose (currently in the ancient skeleton level).
I found a minor visual bug, with a black poodle where my character is visually on top of it but the lightning shots from my wand go below it: https://ufile.io/xfq3vusx
My "Purifying Circle" spell is at level 2, and I have found three books for it that I cannot use yet due to too low "intelligence" level.
The unique weapons seem interesting, I like the "Non-Euclidean Basher", though I am not going to use it due to the wand-mage build that I am using.
The ancient skeleton level might be the first level that I have found equipment that has "steal percentage health/mana" properties.
I think the game froze when I used lightning disk, or when it hit an enemy, or something:
I have had the game running for some time after the crash, but the log file at "C:\Users\itch-player-redacted\AppData\LocalLow\osur\Tower of Kalemonvo\Player.log" is over 2GB by now!
The Itch player wants me to update to version 22c, but will my Iron Man save carry over? However, I can also choose to not update, so I am continuing in 22b.
I am moving the Player.log file , and am using " Get-content -tail 50 .\Player.log" in Powershell (as per https://stackoverflow.com/questions/36507343/get-last-n-lines-or-bytes-of-a-huge... ) to get the last 50 lines in it:
But I do not know how useful that is to you.
Continuing in a new post.
The Iron man save is still present, but I lost all my progress in the ancient skeleton level, items gotten, experience, everything, from what I can tell. I am going to avoid using the lightning disk spell from now on.
Possible bug: I am taking on and off a ring that has "Increases Attack Rating by 5". But I cannot see any changes in the level screen. Does "attack rating" not affect wands?
Minor bug, three skeleton archers stuck behind a bookshelf:
A golden goblin, together with some rings that gave extra poison damage, health/mana on kill, and some other properties, yielded a very good ring that gave extra damage of other types and +3 mana on kill. Combined with level 3 "Purifying circle" and other items that give extra mana and health on kill (I am still carrying a book of that which I cannot read yet, I did not pick up yet another book like in the lost progress before the game froze previously), I can remote-clear several open areas rather easily in this level.
Regrettably, I lost my Iron man run. I realized too late that I was up against a boss in the "Breeding Grounds 1", in a panic I retreated into unknown territory, and ended up stuck in a corner. The game felt really easy right before I died, since I dealt something like 16-22 damage per wand shot (with items that gave extra damage per shot), and I believe I could have comfortably deal with that boss if I had not in a panic foolishly retreated into enemy territory - my inventory was full of potions and I also had the "Haste" spell for kiting or escaping. I would not mind it at all if bosses were made much clearer, because the game for some portions changes between "killing mobs that are no danger at all if you play at least a little bit well" to "need to kite, maybe retreat, maybe think how to deal with it, refill potions, can very much die" bosses. And even then, many bosses are not really that dangerous.
In case it helps, here is the first 10.000 lines of the log file for the Player.log file that ended up over 2GB large, by using:
https://ufile.io/q3s6ny4u
thanks for the very detailed feedback and playthrough! i am truly humbled to have made something you valued enough to take the time to write this out
the error, from what i can gather, appears to be that an enemy couldn't find a position to path to when doing a random-movement they do while they're active with no enemy in sight. that's rather strange since i never had this issue - but since i never had this issue i never remembered to exit the movement loop when bringing up that message. so you had your logfile filled with plenty of dev-comments that repeated themselves in a while loop until a crash. i'm unsure how it might be related to any spell usage, but i'll take a look now.
to address some specifics:
>Cell doors block projectiles
noted, will fix this eventually. it has to do with "door" type object preventing obstacles. i recently fixed this with statues, ill do it with doors soon
>Boss fights
Usually they have a different skin and some light effects, but bosses that have non-aura modifiers (for example "Extra damage") have no other visual changes. it's something i'll need to address.
>Minimap
You can move the minimap with the arrow keys, or dim it with + or -
>Spoilers/Vedomot
What a funny encounter. i'm glad to be able to instill this panic/fear in players. i'll look into making the lever a "click only" interactable
>Spell Levels on icons
sure, i'll try it out.
>Potion sort.
you CAN soft of sort them, but i'm not planning on autosorting. pressing middle-mouse on a potion in the inventory sends it to the hotbar. if the hotbar is full, it sends it to the first available slot, going from values 0 to 49, with 0 being the top left slot, and 40 being the bottom right. in this case, slot 9 is top right, so the potions will be sorted horizontally.
>???
it's on purpose! i'll change it to something like "Unkown entity" or something - the idea is that the protagonist can't tell what he's looking at exactly
>Bosses Continued
i find it amusing how you were able to problem solve your way out of bosses. perhaps i should persist their targetting on saving/loading
>Icespike vs Sun Cultists
correct, they cannot be slowed!
>Despawning enemies
enemies never despawn, but they do lose sight of you and de-aggro after some time. they will either return to where they came from or go "patrol" somewhere
>Manashield SFX
noted. good idea
>Minimap pillars
noted. i'll take a look
>Menacing obelisks
they're 50-50 whether they give a boon or a negative effect! the fireball one you've gotten is my favorite!
>Ice damage weakness
im curious about your spell drop rates - since i feel like icespike that late into the game should be at least level 3 or so, and not level 1. i'll take a look at book drop rates again and see if something is amiss
>outline
another player had a great idea about outlines, i'll try and implement that by next DD
>crash
Noted above, looking into it now.
>Death
I'm very glad you have made it this far. it's an impressive and valiant ironman run
You're right that the game tends to 'shift gears' when a boss appears. i will need to make their presence much more obvious to avoid startling the player with a much stronger foe
again, i am tremendously grateful for your long and detailed feedback. thank you for taking the time to play and document your experience despite the hardships. i hope you have enjoyed your time, and i will try my best to ensure the future version is bug-free, at least from these bugs mentioned today!
I'll preface this by saying that I'm not into orblikes so maybe all I'm going to say it's wrong.
I started on normal difficulty with a wand and shield and I played until burrows without dying once, with the magic build I was running only the boss monsters ever touched me, it felt a little cheesy.
Potion management is a little clunky, maybe a system like in Sacred where instead of a potion hotbar you have potion hotkeys that consumes them straight out of your inventory might be smoother
If it's meant to punish you for being unprepared then it works sometimes, but for most bosses it doesn't really take much to put your character in auto-walk and quickly fill your hotbar with new potions.
Sometimes enemies are hidden by walls, an outline around spotted enemies like for Items might help with that.
But I haven't encountered any bugs and playing around with new spells was fun, it just got repetitive in the last few floors I played.
At one point I stopped dodging projectiles and started tanking enemies while they grouped around my fire traps just because I had too many healing potions.
Again, orblet opinion, feel free to disregard.
thanks for the playtest and feedback! i think feedback such as this is the most meaningful for me since it shows me an outsider's perspective on common game tropes.
the enemy being hidden by walls is something i'm currently trying to figure out. perhaps a force-enemy-outline option might be a clever way to handle this - it would work the same as how item are handled. i never considered doing it this way somehow, it's a rather simple solution.
im glad you had fun messing about with the spells. firetrap is especially fun with how it stacks
the potion/preparedness is designed to prevent 24/7 sipping potions, but it seems like most players are frustrated by the limitations. i'll need to think about this more, but i'm unsure of a solution that wont piss off at least one camp.
thanks again for playing and the feedback!
I never played an orblike before, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I played a couple floors as a sword and board warrior. Didn't run into any bugs my first playthrough. But after reloading I got stuck on a door (sent you the webm in the thread), and when I tried to save and load at that point it kept loading. Restarting allowed me to load back, but the door was still blocked. If you tell me where your saves are stored I can send you the save.
The game was easy enough to pick up, though it was strange that you start with skills you can't even use, fortunately everything was well explained/tooltipped. Additionally I couldn't find a use for the shield since blocking both costs mana and enemy moves aren't very telegraphed.
Not being able to attack unless clicking on an enemy also felt strange, as did the random misses(?) when fighting enemies. Floating damage numbers would also be nice.
The enemy graphics are nice and fit the game really well. The rooms themselves seem quite random and empty, but I guess that's typical for orblikes.
thanks for the playthrough and feedback! i value the insight of players unfamiliar with the genre, so i appreciate you taking the time to play and write this out
the fact that loading didn't work is strange. your savegames are .dat files stored in C:/Users/You/AppData/LocalLow/osur/Tower of Kalemonvo
if you could please post it here alongside the Player.Log text file, that would be greatly appreciated
you can attack without needing a target by holding Shift
Things like the lack of HP bars, floating numbers and other UI elements is done on purpose. i like shrouding the player in mystery and uncertainty more than telling them a creature has X hp and required N hits to kill
The rooms all lack a bit of flavor as it is, that part will require a lot of assetwork methinks.
thanks again for the feedback, i'll try and see what caused your save issues. the door should be an easy enough fix... i hope
Here you go: https://files.catbox.moe/dhpkwy.zip
if you've played the DD50 build, feel free to skip this one
if you're ballsy, enable Ironman mode