Great stuff, great start. Controller works well. I'm a big fan of "scales" trading UI, and not a big fan of "numbers" trading UI. Dialogue during trades needs to be either skippable or faster, cuz I kinda expect the trading window to close after the trade is done.
Sprites are cute, and the newspaper telling you current market situation is a great way to give me a heads up. Running out of sellable items feels almost like a softlock, but I understand that it's still WIP.
Shop customization is VERY welcome, and I'm curious to see how the "shop type coordinates" affect the customers.
Can't bash the littering customers with my broomstick, 0/10
I like the premise of the game. It seems buggy and choppy though. Key presses would register 2 or 3 times. A slight movement in the mouse wheel would cause indefinite scrolling. It seems like time passes in the game world while you are negotiating with customers. I would remove that.
I look forward to further developments from you. You are doing a good job! :D
The atmosphere of the game is very comfy. I like your music too!
I played Recettear a long time ago so I don't remember all the details but it seems like you did a good job of replicating all the basic systems from that game. I like the idea of the patience bar to add a real time element although I think it decreases too fast right now. It makes the gameplay feel hectic and the player want to just go with the default option ASAP. Also like the idea of sweeping floors as it makes perfect sense in a shopkeeping game.
Not much to say about the strategy right now since there's only 1 customer type and not many differences between the items. Once you add more content though I think the game can be a lot of fun. Do you also plan to add dungeon adventuring like Recettear?
Thanks for playing, I appreciate it. And yes, there will be some dungeon excursion by next time, It got left on the cutting room floor since I ran out of time. Still have plenty to add, hopefully that will make the game feel more unique than just a retread of the past.
My impression for this demo is that it focuses down mainly on the shop system, especially the old vs new UI so that's mainly what I'll be focusing on, though in general the idea of a Wild West-ish Recettear is a good one, the art is charming and being able to put the hat on is a nice touch.
Using keyboard and mouse, personally I prefer the interface where you scroll the cost instead of the one with the scale, but mostly because it lets me accurately put in the cost that I have in mind instead of having to try to find it in what's essentially is a scroll bar, thoguh I can see why someone might prefer the scale version. My only issue with the barter system is that I wish it had a dedicated UI button for proposing the price, as I accidentally clicked over the deal a good amount of times trying to go past the dialogue. Would be nice if they offered an alternative price if they don't agree with yours and don't storm off immediately.
Having to sweep as the dirt accumulate is an interesting idea, though I'm wondering if it'll end up too much of a chore once more things are added to the game. The footprints and the dirt was way too distracting for me with how much they are highlighted, making me actively go out and sweep them up even as people were waiting at the register. Maybe toning it down to just it being a visual thing that people can do it just for the satisfaction of seeing the shop clean without any gameplay element tied ot it? The sweeping animation also feels like it has too long pauses between sweeps, I wasn't sure if sweeping happening at first because the character stood still for a long moment before starting to move the broom.
The music is nice, having varios versions fade in and out as you play is a nice touch, though with that being the only track it can become a bit repetative - though that's also partly the small scope of the demo.
Thanks for the feedback, and the other thoughts. I'll be sure to add a confirm prompt for trading. And yeah the range for them storming off is too much. Maybe I can have an inbetween range where they will demand a certain price and set the haggle limit thereafter to 0. Then it's up to the player to bluff a better price than what they want.
Sweeping won't be the only thing, there will(hopefully) be other things you can do while the shop is open. And cleaning while the shop is operating is expected, it will be more obvious later when the pace of the day is slower. Furthermore, there will be assistants later on, and one of the jobs they can do is sweeping the floor. And yes the animation is bad, will fix later.
Good to know another soul can stand my music, and yeah there needs to be more. For example, I didn't get to it this time but I plan on adding customer themes that play while you trade. That should definitely keep the main shop theme fresh.
Tried it out, I like the character art while haggling, most things are clunky and I am sorry to say I was not a fan of the music, read that you made it yourself. How do you buy more inventory for the storage?
Interesting game. My thoughts are very mixed. It seems like a really great concept with really questionable execution. The atmosphere and the gameplay loop (in concept) grabbed me, but the moment-to-moment gameplay is clunky for a long list of reasons.
MAJOR IMPRESSIONS
The gameplay loop works but it's filled with a lot of little things that left me wondering "why?" To begin with, why is the game designed around controllers? This seems to me a pure PC game. I don't know why anyone owning a console would ever play a game like this and I don't know enough about PC players who use controllers to be able to understand what sort of games they enjoy, but for a management game like this it's a strange choice.
The game is in desperate need of a tutorial or the bare minimum introduction which at least explains coherently the basics of how to run the shop. A lot of it was obvious to me and some of it took some trial and error to figure out but I've played a lot of similar games so I knew more or less what to look for. Even if you want your players to figure out the fine details of what everything does it's still essential to at least make sure that the player has complete awareness of the basic loop and how to do the bare minimum.
I found both haggle layouts to be functionally alright. The scale layout is a more visually clear indicator which makes it more user-friendly it seems. But I don't think the game's trade system problems come from the trade screen visuals. In my experience it's much more frustrating that there's very little clarity about what factors determine how to find the best deal. It feels like taking shots in the dark because the game doesn't ever imply there are other factors like preferences of the individual clients or other things like that, so it seems almost random, and that's not very engaging because it reinforces that it's all random and you don't need to pay attention since it's all about random guesswork after you make the basic consideration of what items are plentiful and scarce on that day. What I mean is that I don't see a way to make an informed decision on the first try in most cases (if that's intentional you can ignore this). I noticed that displays give a bonus to sale price but at least for me the haggling wasn't fun, and I would think that it's crucial that it's engaging in some way since I assume the whole game is built around it. There is also very little way to know how to decide what items are best to display for any given day. I would guess that it's best to display scarce items and to keep plentiful items in storage but I could be wrong.
I don't understand what kind of players this game is for. When I first opened it the atmosphere sucked me right in and I assumed it's a game for people who want to relax, but the game generally seems obtuse and systems-focused. So I don't know if it's supposed to appeal to cozy games players or management game players who prefer a bit more complexity. If you're aiming for the first demographic you don't have to dumb it down but you're going to have to really make the game experience as smooth as humanly possible and make a really thorough tutorial that even a child can complete. If the goal is the second group then you will have to make it more engaging and lean into the complexity, but you're still going to have to explain the rules of price manipulation more clearly.
MINOR IMPRESSIONS & BUGS
The music becoming quieter when you tab out of the game is a weird but nice touch.
The UI navigation is counterintuitive sometimes but I assume that stems from the controller-first design. It was most noticeable in the interface for moving the furniture and changing the decorations.
Generally the UI is well designed (the storage for example), though I would personally prefer that if I press the movement keys it automatically closes the inventory-storage screen.
The table highlight often highlights a different spot than the one that opens when you interact with it - sometimes is highlights two spots at once. It's difficult to replicate but it happened at least a few times. Overall the game is bug-free.
Had a few lag spikes when I loaded into the shop. Happened when I used the broom and went through the back room doors the first time.
The music is a good choice. It sets the atmosphere and isn't grating. I left it running in the background for over an hour and it never got annoying.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The display management, the haggle system, the economy dynamics - it's all a really solid foundation for an incredible game, but it didn't engage me because it wasn't possible to understand how my actions affected my results most of the time.
Your atmosphere is great. Your art direction is great. Your art quality (on the finished assets) is great.
Thanks for the high effort feedback, I really appreciate it. First off, I apologize for the poor state of the game; things set it back a bit but I'm hoping to really give it 110% to iron out the kinks and actually make it /fun/. Summed quotes below to be expedient, not trying to riff on you or anything.
why use controllers you pleb?
Because I like them!(and another game in my niche did this) But also because half of the game is an action top-down-shooter, not featured this time around. Oh, and in 2035 when I finally release on consoles it will be useful to have good UI for them.
tutorial???
Yeah it's bad right now. I keep putting it off but it's really important to get done since no one has a clue unless they played Recettear. Maybe I'll get off my ass and do it by next time, at least spell it out in text.
lack of clarity in trade; give me informed decisions!
Yeah I'm with you. It's kind of hard to grasp as is, but there will be lots of aspects available to the player to have an idea of how far they can push the envelope. Guess I'll summarize as it is in my head more or less: 1)There will be many customer types, and these customers will have different markup % ranges that shift as you get to know them. You can keep track of these changes and get a better idea of the range by editing the trade weights. 2)There will be moods for the customer, that will change behavior and/or price range. 3)The demand of items will be predictable/hinted at somewhat, I'm not sure to what degree though. ie newspaper articles, spying on rival's recent trade volume 4)Advertisement campaigns that could do several things, maybe including markup changes.|| Looking at all these, it's alright but maybe needs something more/different to really be good.
who is this game for?
It's a very specific niche, Recettear and Moonlighter players(they are still alive right?..), and the general 'shop sim' crowd. That said, the current pace is NOT what I want. It will be way more chilled out, especially in the beginning to ease people in. You do mention a good point, I kind of forgot about the 'comfy' demographic as I have made this game. I suppose a small portion of those people may be interested, especially when the graphics get there. I have thought about how it's probably gonna bite me(money wise) for doing the combat section of this game, I might be better off just doing a pure comfy econ sim game... but I'm gonna try it damnit.
audio quieting on alt tab
lol finally someone noticed, honestly I'm not sure if it was worth it, but it's there now.
ui navigation and design
Fair enough, and interesting idea with closing the menu as moving away. Might make that an option to enable, or even do that by default when in KB&M mode. One thing to consider is to switch to an entirely different UI that is more suited to mouse, but that's quite a bit of work. Or maybe there's a good compromise I am missing.
double devil table highlights and the wrong slot
Yeah, that thing really peeves me too. I've been putting it off, but it probably isn't that hard to fix.
lag spikes
Shader compilation, I decided against setting up the manual pre caching on load that is necessary for first launch. Will remedy that eventually.
music is listenable
Thanks, I made it myself, and this is the highest praise I have heard of it lmao.
summary
For visuals, it's almost all thanks to Rutbon, he's a great guy. Will try to live up to that quality and make this an awesome game, or at least one where I don't cringe. Hope to deliver a taste of that by the next DD I join. Once again, thanks for the honest feedback.
Cute game but there's not a lot to comment on at the moment.
The new UI is faster and more convenient for setting a markup, although I'm not sure why it moves 2% when you press once.
I couldn't replicate it but once I was trying to sell something at a price so egregious that when the next costumer's dialogue started he immediately said "I won't forget this" and stormed off, this was with the old UI.
Controls-wise, personally I'd let the player set the markup without having to read or skip the dialogue first, and I'd let the player walk with the d-pad.
It's not bad for this stage, but gameplay isn't super interesting at the moment
Thanks, several of your issues I realize are artifacts from last minute changes, should be an easy fix. Will try to put waaaay more into the game next time, very aware how bare it is right now.
Didn't understand how the trade system worked, I think a tutorial would be useful here. Also seems to be a bit of a clash in the art style between the portrait in the top left, the 3D model characters, the 2D billboard items, the trade portraits, and mix and matched fonts. Compared to how many footprints get left behind, I feel like the character movement and sweep speed are too slow as well.
Thanks, hope it wasn't too painful. I like to minimize the tutorials to see how obvious or not some things are(definately not just an excuse...). Very true with the visuals, we'll be working on it.
the first trade screen seemed more intuitive to me, mostly because i was just pressing on the left mouse button semi randomly and 90% of the time the purchase succeeded with it, while with the second trade method it almost never went through.
maybe the default sale value was set too high for the second method?
Comments
Great stuff, great start. Controller works well. I'm a big fan of "scales" trading UI, and not a big fan of "numbers" trading UI. Dialogue during trades needs to be either skippable or faster, cuz I kinda expect the trading window to close after the trade is done.
Sprites are cute, and the newspaper telling you current market situation is a great way to give me a heads up. Running out of sellable items feels almost like a softlock, but I understand that it's still WIP.
Shop customization is VERY welcome, and I'm curious to see how the "shop type coordinates" affect the customers.
Can't bash the littering customers with my broomstick, 0/10
Keep it up!
Thanks, I will now try at least 15% harder.
OS: Arch Linux
cpu: Intel i5-1035G1 (8) @ 3.600GHz
gpu: Intel Iris Plus Graphics G1
I like the premise of the game. It seems buggy and choppy though. Key presses would register 2 or 3 times. A slight movement in the mouse wheel would cause indefinite scrolling. It seems like time passes in the game world while you are negotiating with customers. I would remove that.
I look forward to further developments from you. You are doing a good job! :D
Lower PC spec than what I'm aiming for, but I'll try to work on performance if I can for next time.
Alright good to know. Looks like I was pushing my PC out of its comfort zone.
The atmosphere of the game is very comfy. I like your music too!
I played Recettear a long time ago so I don't remember all the details but it seems like you did a good job of replicating all the basic systems from that game. I like the idea of the patience bar to add a real time element although I think it decreases too fast right now. It makes the gameplay feel hectic and the player want to just go with the default option ASAP. Also like the idea of sweeping floors as it makes perfect sense in a shopkeeping game.
Not much to say about the strategy right now since there's only 1 customer type and not many differences between the items. Once you add more content though I think the game can be a lot of fun. Do you also plan to add dungeon adventuring like Recettear?
Thanks for playing, I appreciate it. And yes, there will be some dungeon excursion by next time, It got left on the cutting room floor since I ran out of time. Still have plenty to add, hopefully that will make the game feel more unique than just a retread of the past.
My impression for this demo is that it focuses down mainly on the shop system, especially the old vs new UI so that's mainly what I'll be focusing on, though in general the idea of a Wild West-ish Recettear is a good one, the art is charming and being able to put the hat on is a nice touch.
Using keyboard and mouse, personally I prefer the interface where you scroll the cost instead of the one with the scale, but mostly because it lets me accurately put in the cost that I have in mind instead of having to try to find it in what's essentially is a scroll bar, thoguh I can see why someone might prefer the scale version. My only issue with the barter system is that I wish it had a dedicated UI button for proposing the price, as I accidentally clicked over the deal a good amount of times trying to go past the dialogue. Would be nice if they offered an alternative price if they don't agree with yours and don't storm off immediately.
Having to sweep as the dirt accumulate is an interesting idea, though I'm wondering if it'll end up too much of a chore once more things are added to the game. The footprints and the dirt was way too distracting for me with how much they are highlighted, making me actively go out and sweep them up even as people were waiting at the register. Maybe toning it down to just it being a visual thing that people can do it just for the satisfaction of seeing the shop clean without any gameplay element tied ot it? The sweeping animation also feels like it has too long pauses between sweeps, I wasn't sure if sweeping happening at first because the character stood still for a long moment before starting to move the broom.
The music is nice, having varios versions fade in and out as you play is a nice touch, though with that being the only track it can become a bit repetative - though that's also partly the small scope of the demo.
Thanks for the feedback, and the other thoughts. I'll be sure to add a confirm prompt for trading. And yeah the range for them storming off is too much. Maybe I can have an inbetween range where they will demand a certain price and set the haggle limit thereafter to 0. Then it's up to the player to bluff a better price than what they want.
Sweeping won't be the only thing, there will(hopefully) be other things you can do while the shop is open. And cleaning while the shop is operating is expected, it will be more obvious later when the pace of the day is slower. Furthermore, there will be assistants later on, and one of the jobs they can do is sweeping the floor. And yes the animation is bad, will fix later.
Good to know another soul can stand my music, and yeah there needs to be more. For example, I didn't get to it this time but I plan on adding customer themes that play while you trade. That should definitely keep the main shop theme fresh.
Tried it out, I like the character art while haggling, most things are clunky and I am sorry to say I was not a fan of the music, read that you made it yourself. How do you buy more inventory for the storage?
Thanks, every disappointment makes me stronger. I'll probably remove item limits to storage, but if I do keep it you could purchase upgrades in town.
Interesting game. My thoughts are very mixed. It seems like a really great concept with really questionable execution. The atmosphere and the gameplay loop (in concept) grabbed me, but the moment-to-moment gameplay is clunky for a long list of reasons.
MAJOR IMPRESSIONS
The gameplay loop works but it's filled with a lot of little things that left me wondering "why?" To begin with, why is the game designed around controllers? This seems to me a pure PC game. I don't know why anyone owning a console would ever play a game like this and I don't know enough about PC players who use controllers to be able to understand what sort of games they enjoy, but for a management game like this it's a strange choice.
The game is in desperate need of a tutorial or the bare minimum introduction which at least explains coherently the basics of how to run the shop. A lot of it was obvious to me and some of it took some trial and error to figure out but I've played a lot of similar games so I knew more or less what to look for. Even if you want your players to figure out the fine details of what everything does it's still essential to at least make sure that the player has complete awareness of the basic loop and how to do the bare minimum.
I found both haggle layouts to be functionally alright. The scale layout is a more visually clear indicator which makes it more user-friendly it seems. But I don't think the game's trade system problems come from the trade screen visuals. In my experience it's much more frustrating that there's very little clarity about what factors determine how to find the best deal. It feels like taking shots in the dark because the game doesn't ever imply there are other factors like preferences of the individual clients or other things like that, so it seems almost random, and that's not very engaging because it reinforces that it's all random and you don't need to pay attention since it's all about random guesswork after you make the basic consideration of what items are plentiful and scarce on that day. What I mean is that I don't see a way to make an informed decision on the first try in most cases (if that's intentional you can ignore this). I noticed that displays give a bonus to sale price but at least for me the haggling wasn't fun, and I would think that it's crucial that it's engaging in some way since I assume the whole game is built around it. There is also very little way to know how to decide what items are best to display for any given day. I would guess that it's best to display scarce items and to keep plentiful items in storage but I could be wrong.
I don't understand what kind of players this game is for. When I first opened it the atmosphere sucked me right in and I assumed it's a game for people who want to relax, but the game generally seems obtuse and systems-focused. So I don't know if it's supposed to appeal to cozy games players or management game players who prefer a bit more complexity. If you're aiming for the first demographic you don't have to dumb it down but you're going to have to really make the game experience as smooth as humanly possible and make a really thorough tutorial that even a child can complete. If the goal is the second group then you will have to make it more engaging and lean into the complexity, but you're still going to have to explain the rules of price manipulation more clearly.
MINOR IMPRESSIONS & BUGS
The music becoming quieter when you tab out of the game is a weird but nice touch.
The UI navigation is counterintuitive sometimes but I assume that stems from the controller-first design. It was most noticeable in the interface for moving the furniture and changing the decorations.
Generally the UI is well designed (the storage for example), though I would personally prefer that if I press the movement keys it automatically closes the inventory-storage screen.
The table highlight often highlights a different spot than the one that opens when you interact with it - sometimes is highlights two spots at once. It's difficult to replicate but it happened at least a few times. Overall the game is bug-free.
Had a few lag spikes when I loaded into the shop. Happened when I used the broom and went through the back room doors the first time.
The music is a good choice. It sets the atmosphere and isn't grating. I left it running in the background for over an hour and it never got annoying.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The display management, the haggle system, the economy dynamics - it's all a really solid foundation for an incredible game, but it didn't engage me because it wasn't possible to understand how my actions affected my results most of the time. Your atmosphere is great. Your art direction is great. Your art quality (on the finished assets) is great.
Thanks for the high effort feedback, I really appreciate it. First off, I apologize for the poor state of the game; things set it back a bit but I'm hoping to really give it 110% to iron out the kinks and actually make it /fun/. Summed quotes below to be expedient, not trying to riff on you or anything.
Because I like them!(and another game in my niche did this) But also because half of the game is an action top-down-shooter, not featured this time around. Oh, and in 2035 when I finally release on consoles it will be useful to have good UI for them.
Yeah it's bad right now. I keep putting it off but it's really important to get done since no one has a clue unless they played Recettear. Maybe I'll get off my ass and do it by next time, at least spell it out in text.
Yeah I'm with you. It's kind of hard to grasp as is, but there will be lots of aspects available to the player to have an idea of how far they can push the envelope. Guess I'll summarize as it is in my head more or less: 1)There will be many customer types, and these customers will have different markup % ranges that shift as you get to know them. You can keep track of these changes and get a better idea of the range by editing the trade weights. 2)There will be moods for the customer, that will change behavior and/or price range. 3)The demand of items will be predictable/hinted at somewhat, I'm not sure to what degree though. ie newspaper articles, spying on rival's recent trade volume 4)Advertisement campaigns that could do several things, maybe including markup changes.|| Looking at all these, it's alright but maybe needs something more/different to really be good.
It's a very specific niche, Recettear and Moonlighter players(they are still alive right?..), and the general 'shop sim' crowd. That said, the current pace is NOT what I want. It will be way more chilled out, especially in the beginning to ease people in. You do mention a good point, I kind of forgot about the 'comfy' demographic as I have made this game. I suppose a small portion of those people may be interested, especially when the graphics get there. I have thought about how it's probably gonna bite me(money wise) for doing the combat section of this game, I might be better off just doing a pure comfy econ sim game... but I'm gonna try it damnit.
lol finally someone noticed, honestly I'm not sure if it was worth it, but it's there now.
Fair enough, and interesting idea with closing the menu as moving away. Might make that an option to enable, or even do that by default when in KB&M mode. One thing to consider is to switch to an entirely different UI that is more suited to mouse, but that's quite a bit of work. Or maybe there's a good compromise I am missing.
Yeah, that thing really peeves me too. I've been putting it off, but it probably isn't that hard to fix.
Shader compilation, I decided against setting up the manual pre caching on load that is necessary for first launch. Will remedy that eventually.
Thanks, I made it myself, and this is the highest praise I have heard of it lmao.
For visuals, it's almost all thanks to Rutbon, he's a great guy. Will try to live up to that quality and make this an awesome game, or at least one where I don't cringe. Hope to deliver a taste of that by the next DD I join. Once again, thanks for the honest feedback.
Cute game but there's not a lot to comment on at the moment.
The new UI is faster and more convenient for setting a markup, although I'm not sure why it moves 2% when you press once.
I couldn't replicate it but once I was trying to sell something at a price so egregious that when the next costumer's dialogue started he immediately said "I won't forget this" and stormed off, this was with the old UI.
Controls-wise, personally I'd let the player set the markup without having to read or skip the dialogue first, and I'd let the player walk with the d-pad.
It's not bad for this stage, but gameplay isn't super interesting at the moment
Thanks, several of your issues I realize are artifacts from last minute changes, should be an easy fix. Will try to put waaaay more into the game next time, very aware how bare it is right now.
Didn't understand how the trade system worked, I think a tutorial would be useful here. Also seems to be a bit of a clash in the art style between the portrait in the top left, the 3D model characters, the 2D billboard items, the trade portraits, and mix and matched fonts. Compared to how many footprints get left behind, I feel like the character movement and sweep speed are too slow as well.
Thanks, hope it wasn't too painful. I like to minimize the tutorials to see how obvious or not some things are(definately not just an excuse...). Very true with the visuals, we'll be working on it.
the first trade screen seemed more intuitive to me, mostly because i was just pressing on the left mouse button semi randomly and 90% of the time the purchase succeeded with it, while with the second trade method it almost never went through.
maybe the default sale value was set too high for the second method?
Thanks anyways, I know it's difficult to get a hang of it if you never played on of these.