An interesting theory, but we don't know enough yet. Asterion and Argos keep making very clear declarations that the master is of "Mankind"- namely in how Asterion constantly is reflecting on the cruelty the hotel brings out in his human jailers. Theres also a few mentions whenever Argos is prattling on about Mankinds duty and veneration of the gods, but usually I'm to busy trying to see the trick in his words to catch the words themselves.. At the same time,the feathers in the vase that you spotted to indicate that the new peacock is definitely tied to the hotel. Also, there is a possibility clement slept with one of the guests, so we can't rule out a clement lineage connection yet.
While I don't know who Jean is, there is something that aligns with you theory of the killer being bound- In the sixth lore tablet, "Child"- Asterious meets one of the men sent to kill him, who responds that he's seeking a weapon said to be able to kill an immortal, to free his father of his eternal life (His father still aged, making it torture). what is important here, though, is this line- (https://gyazo.com/74bc7e724cc77ed27260b27fc37881e5).
Later in the passage, Asterion calls himself the "Guardian of Daedalus's home" and that the labyrinth itself is "holy ground- "That in the center of the maze lies a shrine made by the gods themselves. The visual description of the tablet also is describes as depicting a butchered bull at the opening of a temple.
a second tablet- 18- "Skyros" also mentions something along these lines-
(https://gyazo.com/ad2a0e760c122a6d6e40646fe3695fd4).
I'm in the middle of reading all the tablets at the moment, and I can't help this horrible feeling that the Labrys that can cut the strings of Fate will be used to kill Asterion in finality.
You could be right though, I believe one of the crimes Asterion was damned for was the killing of Tithonus, nd undoing Zeus' decree. However, Argos describes the act of torturing and killing Asterion repeatedly to be one of "divine worship", perhaps Asterion's first death was seen as a divine act by the Gods at that point? I believe in the line you highlighted, the host is Deadalus as the Labyrinth is his home, his creation, and so it is Asterion's bloodline which is cursed.
Its possible? however, the "Child" tablet makes me think its unlikely, as asterious tells the adventurer that "he'd welcome him as a guest with open arms, if it were not for the weapons in the adventures hands". The tablet ends by saying "Perhaps a seasoned warrior would have left the adventurer to die, but a child wouldn't know that a beggar can hide a knife".
This indicated to me that asterious eventually invited him as a guest (in tablet 7- Ichor, asterious is show to guide them to the weapon, though the circumstances are unclear) and the "guest" did something terrible, incurring the wrath of the gods. Its entirely possible that this something was not even asterious's or anothers death- the child tablet only states that to bring "Woe" into a hosts home is what causes repercussions. interestingly, "Ichor" also mentions that the man who tried to wield the axe still has burn marks on his hands,as only "those favored by the divine" could wield it.
I think, after reading it all, you may be right. Jean may be Laomedon, son of Tithonus, the one who persuaded Asterion into killing his father against the will of Zeus. Both of their fates may be sealed by this act, as Laomedon in the last tablet states he no longer belongs to any country and is searching for a redeemer himself, if not to become a redeemer.
Perhaps he thinks by Asterion demonstrating his hospitality for all he sends his way (as he did for Laomedon and his father originally) will help redeem him in the eyes of the Gods? It certainly seems to fit well with the guilty vibe I was getting for some reason.
I had to go back and replay the guest scene to catch it, but I do agree that Jean comes across as... off. I dunno if its guilt, but its clear that SOMETHING is weighing on him, and it would explain why he's sending people to the hotel, but not directly interfering. Its also possible that he was behind the MC and Clement meeting, due to how trippy and off kilter the scene of their meeting was.
I think that Jean is just the Hotel WILL and/or MC WILL to meet a X or Y, Anon said that in the Hotel objects has some kind of life in them, so I don't doubt that persons could be created to make them go there, sometimes when you wish something it wont be fate that will lead to the hotel but something that guide them to it.
I'm seconding that the quills we see in the Bedrock were for writing contracts, and a simple assumption is that the Peacock's grandfather used to work on contracts with the hotel (probably left a passport, too, since writing wise it makes sense to cash one of those Chekhov's guns here quickly since we've got 3 more that could come up). Obviously there's some magic/supernatural bits at play with linking his dreams to the place these quills are, maybe they've been used for contacts for so long that they're starting to become an artifact, and are calling out to his grandson.
The tie there to Argos is very interesting, though! If we want a crazier theory, the magic of the quills and peacocks in general can be used for spying on locations they're left behind at - fitting with the eye on the feather, no? We don't know how Argos interacted with Clement or Jean really, did he ever care to interfere with what we're subverting the Bedrock into? Or would he maybe care to now that there is a very crafty new master (if you play that way, of course)? I don't know how Argos can interact with the guests, but could he have subverted the peacock grandfather to be a mole? Or maybe this hints that the upcoming peacock guest could be one? Impossible to know until we know who he his and if he'd let himself get swayed by Argos... And of course, the two may not have any tie at all, but where's the fun in that in the theory thread!
Here we are. took me a moment to find it. https://twitter.com/minohotel/status/1195672188151631873?lang=en
Its quite long and quite a good read. I don't doubt the game will be changed up a bit tho
Yeah, really nice, I feel kindda sad because i almost read it in one go lol
I see how the game's story is a bit different, but its not to far off.
Mmm, it's hard to know yet if we're going to follow the same plot beyond broad strokes, and if there are major parts that will change because this is a new opportunity to change parts that MinoAnon/the MinoH team want to take a different direction, or find not fitting with a visual novel format - for example, Luke used to walk around on all fours pretty often in his scenes, but horizontal character sprites don't work great in VNs. Sure, that's a smaller change in the scheme of things, but it's a sign they want to write things that leverage and fit the medium - and that's not counting the new elements from the hotel management/game aspect! I think this team will surprise us.
I've been wondering about the bedrock, too. And yes, it's strange that Asterion cannot hear the noises... but he is weirdly cautious about us getting too close to the crystalline rock, or touching it. He definitely knows something about it that we do not, and he's worried. Either for us, or the rock, or both.
It's interesting that you said the realm might be running out of power. Maybe the bedrock really is an energy source. It also seems to possess some kind of intelligence, since it can emulate machines if you "explain" their function properly. It's almost like it's alive, or a magical equivalent to an AI, keeping the realm up and running.
There is also the issue of the sky showing completely unknown constellations, as Luke noticed in his conversation with Asterion. And the fact that spacetime seems to be behaving weirdly: people seem to be able to reach the hotel from all parts of the world with little trouble, the corridors of the hotel seem to be infinitely long and never turn back into themselves. And the fact that some basic laws of physics, such as thermodynamics, don't apply there (at least by appearance).
Now, I am probably totally overthinking this, and maybe I should just accept these things, because this is a fantasy story where the supernatural exists. Therefore these things are possible, because magic. But what if that's not quite true? What if the whole realm only appears functionally magical, but is ultimately some type of unfathomably advanced technology? The realm really some sort of bubble universe with slightly different laws, connected to (but apart from) our universe? The gods just the last heirs of an ancient advanced civilization, wielding godlike technological powers even they don't understand anymore? Playing cruel games, torturing mortals for mere sport? Creating genetically engineered creatures such as Argos to do their bidding?
Running and maintaining a whole mini universe would require immense amounts of power. What if that power really is starting to run out after a couple of millennia?
it won't be like that in my opinion they are going to face some challenges for romance to happen after so many years of masters torturing
I think it's gonna be quite an emotional scene
After all Asterion went all his life believing he wasn't deserving of love, so he might confront the MC like he did on build 0.4
At the moment there's not much of a romantic relationship going on, as the MC stated ''Im just doing whats just'' so i dont feel like the MC is developing romantic feelings just yet
On the other hand Asterion is comparing the MC to Phroneos, his friend, guard, and posibly lover. I can see Asterion falling in love with the MC and then beat himself up over it.
Makes sense to me! But hear me out: What if, JUST IF any of those two lovebirds ALREADY developed something? I believe it could be Asterion, with all that "holding your hand and not letting it go" after they first together meal and "re-e-eally long hug" before concert? It could be his hunger for human touch, but it's clearly not just platonic anymore, at least for me.
It's hard to say whether the joke is actually something or just Luke being Luke, but if we operate under the assumption that it's the former, my best guess would be that it's an extension of the reference that the bands themselves are
So, that new tapir character being sketched out for future chapters is named Matias, huh?
Isn't that interesting...
I had to go back to my saves to make sure, and yep, sure enough.
Wouldn't you know it, he donated a certain book somewhere.
This is juicy. Great job.
I wonder if he'll be strictly a tapir or a baku. The tapir already seem to have baku powers so likely that... Still, I can't believe I never noticed the connection, not to Matías but to the Hinterlands, as I've had a dream with a baku and immediately upon seeing the book my mind went to that. I guess because it was before Hinterlands III and learning about the twelve...
Oh man, I cannot wait to meet our author friend now. Or for Robert to meet him.
Luke mentions dreaming about his brother and how well he's been sleeping. I wonder if that has any connection, as baku are known to eat nightmares. Maybe a blessing left by a tapir, if it doesn't involve Matías Hmmm.
I alluded in another (very recent) comment that I want to add a lore drop to the game. We didn't put it in because we didn't have enough time, and to me that is a flaw.
This lore drop, among other things, would mention Matías' ancestry. He is of mixed Asian and Latin American ancestry. He was raised in Buenos Aires, Argentina.
It's not impossible. I've always interpreted the UI patterns as something intrinsic about their character and unable to be changed. If anything, it's the pattern of the recursion marking them. However, if any of the mythical ended up being a fake-out, it would be the one that arrived with Hermes.
The problem is it would make a lot of the writing come off as plot-driven rather than character-driven. Robert functions both as an insight into Asterion's makeup as well as a means to showcase humanity and how similar he is to the MC, at least as far as whatever makes a soul is concerned. It would be odd for that to be written off. I do think Robert likely has some twists for us. He just very casually switches from vacation away from important job in an extreme version of hell to a full-time hotel worker. His role as a guest/employee is more important than whatever details aren't given to us, but since every other character who has joined has gotten some individual spotlight prior, it's "of note".
However, like the shed being a secret quest, he could just be Minotaur Hotel's version of an optional party member. It's hard to say when you only have to juggle between Asterion, Luke, and Robert for spending free time. When more character side stories are available that balance may well shift.
I won't confirm or deny anything but we've already played the "character reveals their true name" card four times over the course of a handful of chapters. Doing it again with Robert would be overkill, if that isn't already the case. I've seen one survey response call the last act of 0.5 a soap opera and... well, they're not 100% wrong...
It also makes it hard for people to remember the characters if they all have multiple names.
I think it was my review in fact. Being unapologetically over the top can be fun with the proper delivery. It is, however, a delicate balance. At the very least, we may need some breathing room before this move can be played safely again.
Happy to see someone notice the little sleight of hand thing going with the UI patterns.
We didn't use one for Jean because that puts him on par with Greta or Ismael or Nini (who also don't have one), and gives players the first impression that he's just another not too important NPC. He only gets one when he's revealed as Hermes (don't know if it came across well, but his UI pattern is meant to be a caduceus; since the patterns don't have a beginning or end it's hard to convey it).
It also helps that a lot of the npcs also have multiple sprites so him having more than one doesn't look conspicuous right away.
Getting off topic, I guess this is now a vent post related to that last paragraph. I think this a game/narrative design obstacle in general when you're presenting players with a mystery: if you don't want players to pick up on an obvious clue, you kind of have to put the same amount of detail on everything else around it to have a decent number of elements fighting for the players' attention, so discovering the clue feels rewarding.
I bumped into this when making a small D&D campaign in a Resident Evil style puzzlebox mansion: you can't just go "you enter the library. There are books. On one of the tables, there is a silver ring with a scarlet jewel on it". If you want to make the players feel smart you can't half ass your description of the location, you have to give them at least three points of interest with an equal amount of detail. Likewise, in order for Jean to not stand out as a plot relevant NPC, we only show two of his sprites on his first two scenes, and the other NPCs like the trucker, Nini, or Ismael get multiple sprites too. Which can become a scope issue.
The flipside to that, or at least how I first interpreted it, is that Hermes' disguise is flimsy and not especially tough to see through. He's an old god with a nearly non-existent following, so he's going to be a little out of touch. Like the MC says, "a 'deliveryman?' Really?"
I never felt like seeing the neon sign behind Jean that reads "by the way I'm Hermes" took anything away from his arc. His motivations were always the bigger part of the mystery. Whether or not you clock him doesn't really have an appreciable impact on the story up until the point that you/Asterion sock him.
Was this all just an excuse for that last sentence? Maaaaaaybe. Suffice it to say, I think Jean was handled very well!
We expected most people to pick up on it right away, so we put in several ways to have the player call out who he was early on.
But you'd be surprised how many people were surprised by the twist. I guess it isn't too obvious if you're not familiar with Greek mythology.
I was surprised. I misread his conversation in Chapter 15 pushing Asterion and the MC together as a wink to the audience that Jean was Storm's father and he was working off some debt lmao.
I really should have seen it, because I am someone who notices details...but sometimes my mind sees one thing and starts filling in the blanks before I have time to get the full picture and I end up missing really obvious text.
He even makes a subtle self-deprecating joke when he first arrives in the hotel, explaining his name by saying that his family likes to join others' names together when naming their children.
And then, of course, he starts making references to his child Hermaphroditus
Yes, we didn't want the mystery of Jean being Hermes to be too difficult. If anything it was the introductory mystery that leads to the juicier ones surrounding Argos, which in turn connects to P's.
I wrote a longass post about my experiences with scope that I might post tomorrow. I basically got no sleep last night and can't tell if it makes even a lick of sense outside of my head. So outside of that, thank you for including things like the sleight of hand with the UI patterns. It's one of the things I've gushed about to people off-site, actually. They help make the whole package feel dynamic and lively in ways not even full on studio releases do. And yes, Hermes pattern came across immediately.
I think you did a good job with the mystery of Jean. While one of my initial thoughts was that he is an agent of Hermes, I didn't speculate that he himself would be Hermes until closer to the reveal. I was overanalyzing Jean so much that one of my lesser hypothesis was that Jean might just be a red herring with that fact hidden in plan sight with his red shirt and he would just be a regular human and everything around him would just be a complete coincidence. Another thing I had considered was that maybe Jean was an agent of Aphrodite and he's actually Cupid/Eros playing matchmaker by gathering certain people to the hotel after his poking and prodding of Asterion and the MC's relationship. That conversation now makes me wonder which of his children was Jean talking about? I'm speculating it's Hermaphroditus.
This game has gotten me more into researching ancient Greek literature and mythology than my all of my life's schooling.
I don't want to spoil anything, but there are moments where the story's current state of incompleteness can become a misleading element on its own — more than we would want.
It's safe to say that all the recruitable staff members have some meat to their stories. There's stuff to be discovered there, if you ask the right questions and dig around in the right direction. In the case of Robert I can say that our intention was to have at least one person showing up at the hotel who, deep down, is just a mythical enjoying his vacations. He works as a prosecutor in a hell and you can imagine that's a very stressful job. The prospect of spending a month in a very different location where he can read and laze about is interesting, and if he learns too much about the hotel his inner Law academic is awakened. Any self-respecting lawyer would want to write a paper or two about the contractual shenanigans in the Bedrock.
He has no reason to lie about anything. He is, in fact, quite honest, sincere and compassionate. He's also a red herring in comparison to Hermes, who's the real source of mystery when the two show up at the hotel. But, you know, he hasn't had the time or chance to give the player character his whole life story. If you asked and he trusts you he probably would say a lot.
So... I don't want to spoil anything, but what I want to say is that Robert's story (and twists) are not based on misdirection. Robert is exactly what and who he says he is. The cards are on the table and none of them are lies. Not all of the cards are visible right now, of course, but the game has enough information that people could make reasonably precise guesses.
We might add a lore drop in an upcoming update that adds some more information too. I wish we could have put it in 0.5 but, well, we ran out of time.
I think you've written him perfectly in that direction, so long as you're not being tricky here yourself. I genuinely love Robert for all those reasons.
That all came through 100%, don't worry if you can't get it out until 0.6 or beyond, Mino. You should be taking a break, seriously. Like I said, Robert's story falls apart if it's misdirection and everything I've seen from your writing and my many, many posts on it show that you are extremely thoughtful. A lot of writers tend to freak out when people make connections they didn't want them to, whereas you're giddy people are enjoying and sharing in your work. That's why I specifically said it's quite possible a lack of intended content isn't there and it could change someone's perspective, but it's not the impression I had. That's why I put air quotes into "of note" as by default it's suspicious but considering the information we have it's instead fairly mundane. This was in my very first post here:
I'll give a special shoutout to Robert and what his backstory adds to the mythos. Robert kicks ass.
Whereas Kota wasn't mentioned and I had (now rectified) neutral opinions of the MC, as things that were specific to that route were taken as the same for every route.
I have a feeling you're not just responding to me and instead the idea I presented for anyone reading, but just in case, the tone with "it's not impossible" should be more incredulous than I conveyed.
Heh, Robert was only a red herring for me in a sense that he's a big and intellectual demon who is a hottie. (Pun not intended but totally appropriate).
This topic does make me wonder if one of the themes of Minotaur Hotel, whether intentional or not, how much trust one puts into the social contracts. (Really appropriate term now that I think of it.) While we don't expect everyone to tell us their whole lives story upfront and as honestly from their perspective, we do have an expectation of honest that even the smallest and basic amount of information exchanged is the truth. We see this a few times with names such as with P and Jean but we also see it openly challenged a few times by Asterion, albeit playfully most of the time. Why is Asterion under any obligation to outright tell the MC the whole truth and nothing but the truth unless he's forced by his contract? And even then, he is able to find loopholes to withhold information as he pleases. There's also the story about the pyrite crucifix which reveals a lot about how cunning Asterion is with being able to bend truths which I highly enjoyed.
This narrative makes me question this aspect of our social contract in humans though one does also have to be careful not to fall too hard the other direction and start to question every single thing presented. There is a mystery to the narrative but I haven't been giving a reason to suspect that we have an unreliable narrator (though I do question if the narrator outside of the Hinterlands chapters is just a narrator or an in universe omniscient character) so I don't tend to question every single word presented in that sense. I also don't quite question what the characters present of themselves unless I'm given a reason to (the mysterious vibe and some of the things Jean says or doesn't seem to say makes me question his identity for example.) In addition, just because a character doesn't present the whole truth doesn't mean their actively being deceptive, they could just not have the whole truth themselves. (Something I suspect when it comes to Asterion and the topic of his sentence.)
I'm not sure if I got my thoughts across but I feel like if I go one, I'd just be rambling.
TL;DR: Questioning the humanity's social contract one of the themes? I trust Robert to top him or bottom for him without getting burned. 🙃
There are a couple of ways this could go. One is the theme of recursion, Hermes being obligated to repeat history because of fate, or something that forces gods to take on certain actions. Another explanation is that immortal beings might be bound to losing sanity over time, this concept is present in other pieces of media. And the last one that i can think of, greek gods where never saints, and always have been imperfect and flawed beings, the myths are rich in examples of that. But yes, gods requiring worship can be tied to their powers and well being aswell.
ooo I love the references you are giving. I love greek mythology because the gods feel very much human as well, and it shows that they get jealous and spiteful but kind as well. What argos said kills me every time. They didn't abandon him, they failed him, the gods are flawed. I wonder what would come about continuing the story of the gods becoming more prevent with the hotel.
I think they hint at this multiple times, such as during the conversation with Robert about if Hades (the realm) still exists, and during the conversation with Hermes when Asterion is worried about Hades and Hermes tells him Hades is fine. Hades and his realm remains stable because of the undying population that will still worship him and the other gods of the realm.
It might not only be based on belief/worship but might also take info account nature and technology. Wherever technology goes magic wanes and (in the case of Kota) when their home is contaminated they lose their powers/strength.
It makes me wonder if Hermes condition is a direct result of the MC bringing the internet to the hotel. The hotel is a realm Hermes oversees and it would make sense that while the MC drives out more of the magic it would cause Hermes rapid decay.
The hotel is at its peak when it comes to tech. Compared to when it was only radio, I do believe that might have some relevance. Though we seen P. He had no or little problem with his magic. Maybe its sorta modernized? (but they was in a very underdeveloped area when making the charm for storm) Which could help in the long run with the hotel and hermes. I do wish the best for hermes and hopefully get a glimpse at hestia since she was on team asterion.
I believe it is from Poseidon it makes the most logical sense considering it probably wasn't P/Pedro's Grandfather. The Letter (to me at least) felt like a father apologizing for failing his child when they needed him.
I've read that Poseidon and Athena's votes aren't implemented yet. So we all have to wait for another build to get them.
I think that Athena imprisoned our boi so that they would have an immortal believer so they would never disappear making the Greek pantheon effectively immortal.
I don't have any evidence ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ but Athena is definitely smart and cruel enough to do something like this.
The Constitution prevents any (uninvited) god that's not the Overseer from entering:
With the exception of the Overseer, the gods of Olympus, their associates, Lady Hestia and Lord Hades are hereby forbidden from entering the Labyrinth without express invitation from the Master of the Realm.
Only if Clement (or a previous master) invited Athena in would it work, and I thought the woman Clement met was already in the Hotel... Heck, I think Athena would've been pretty unhappy with Asterion being locked up and not 'actually tortured' again, too, she would've rather wound Clement around her finger to return to the old ways.
Though I will say, in the Ruthless route we do learn about the 3 other 'minor' gods who are involved in our story and contributed their blood to the creation of the Realm, because one of them outright shows up. How did the realm allow them in if the Constitution should've kept them out? Even if they aren't the main 12 gods/Hades/Hestia, they're still a god of Olympus, no? Maybe they never left the realm in the first place? I don't think Nemesis or her sisters would be banished to the Realm for any reason, but that's another way in maybe.
Nah Greta is Gaia trying to push the final destruction of the Olympians. OH BY HESTIA it ALL MAKES SENSE
Nah, Greta is actually an unspeakable evil that is so powerful it will glitch out your game and manipulate your save files so that they all lead to the super secret route of using the hotel powers for her world domination mission. FOR SCIENCE!!
